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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Nick's Picks on December 01, 2004, 06:54:29 AM
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Hey now ...
I've got a quiestion for your pros out there.
The other day, I noticed a Leslie speaker being miced for live re-enforcement that was done in a way i've never seen.
they had two 414's on the upper horn. Once facing foward on one side of the opening in the speaker, and one on the other side, but backwards. Both were in front, just on the opposite ends of the oppening.
I assume that they were set to F-o-8 and one was in phase, and the other was out of phase (the backwards one) ?
what is gained by this, what is the affect? I suppose the forward one could have been any polar pattern, but the backwards one must have been F-o-8 ?
I know that the in phase mic would have sounded very forward and localized while the out of phase mic would have sounded like the horn was was coming from everywhere, non-localized.
Is it just a funky stereo affect? I'll have to try that sometime. Need to get my Leslie working.
:)
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Interesting...
I dunno about mixed polar patterns, but instruments are mic's OOF for additional reinforcement, or use as a secondary input for effects, etc. - but it's done like double-mic'ing a snare drum - one on top/one on bottom OOF and they (supposedly) reinforce - kinda like push-pull speaker designs with 2 subs wired 180* OOF...
Usually I mic Leslies from the side, one on top and one on bottom - both from the same side. I've seen other guys mic 'em the same, with the mic's on the side (by the slots in the wood, instead of by the cutouts). There's a bazillion ways to do Leslies.
But my feelings always been - You want to PLAY OUT with one? YOU FUCKING CARRY IT ONSTAGE! I worked for a band in the 80's, whose keyboard player had to have his B3/Leslie (a local bar band mind you). Fucking B3 on a steel frame with wheels. Fuck ME trying to get that thing offstage after a gig @ 2:30AM. He wisely switched to an XB-3, but we still had to haul the Leslie in & out.
GUITAR PLAYERS that use one, should DEFINATELY be made to haul it their goddamn selves... (though guitars and banjo's DO sound amazing through them)
Rick
you should ask Doug about this too (the OOF mic'ing). I'm sure he's mic'd a couple of cabs in his day...
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wow...
hammond annimosity !
I can relate though. I"ve been the hated keyboard player in a number of bands. Lugging around my rig back in the day (B3 / 147 / Rhodes) was a bitch, granted.
the instrument that created the rodie, I alwasy say.
fwiw, playing on a console organ like a B3 and then moving to somthing digital is very difficult for the player.
I'll post the same question over on OTF and see what comes.
thanks for the feedback.
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re-read your post...
Yeah, one on the front and one on the opposite side (oof) would be for double reinforcement, plus the interesting phase shifts caused by a moving speaker horn - kind like doppler effect, as pitch would shift depending on frequency and speed of the moving horn. Alot of folks play thier cab's real quiet-like, so the only way to get enough gain-before-feedback is to double-mic them.
Used to double mic guitar cabinets this way too - one mic on the front, one on the backside opening of the cab, but we didn't turn the mic, just used the phase switch on the console.
Rick
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I have a bit of B-3 animosity as well. I worked for a bar band that had a B-3 player. We mounted a hand truck to it more or less permanently. (We didn't remove it for performances) I used to mic the Leslie cabinet much like Rick. An SM81 on top and and one on the bottom, from the same side. Some of the bars they played in only had 16 channel FOH boards at the time, so I built a microphone (combiner) I forgot how it was wired, I think i got it from the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement book. Anyway, to save channels, I sometimes combined two SM57's on the Leslie cabinet together on the same channel using that cable I made. Try getting a 5 piece band with four singers reinforced properly in a big bar on a 16 channel board sometime! ::)
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Hey Nick and All,
The November 2004 Recording Magazine has an article specifically about mic techniques for the Hammond
The samples were all recorded simultaneously (no mention of the technique you observed) and stored to mp3 for availability at:
http://www.recordingmag.com/downloads_organ.html
This makes for a fun listen.
I don't know if the article is posted on the website or not.
See ya soon,
Marc
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Lugging around my rig back in the day (B3 / 147 / Rhodes) was a bitch, granted.
Right up there with schlepping amp racks on and off of trucks.
Ahh, the glorious life of road dogs!!!
Marc
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That's why you gotta work for a bluegrass band. ;D Hines and I can be loaded out in 30 minutes on a good night, 45 if we are dragging ass. But we just bought a new Midas Verona for FOH and Im getting a new Crest to replace my XRM for monitors after the next tour, and we are going to expand our multi-tracking gear a little more, so it's getting bigger. Thank god we dont carry PA :D
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Hey Nick and All,
The November 2004 Recording Magazine has an article specifically about mic techniques for the Hammond
The samples were all recorded simultaneously (no mention of the technique you observed) and stored to mp3 for availability at:
http://www.recordingmag.com/downloads_organ.html
This makes for a fun listen.
I don't know if the article is posted on the website or not.
See ya soon,
Marc
Not online...
Hope the local magazine shop still has the November issue on the shelf. Some interesting articals in there.
Rick
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I like to put one mic on the top rotor, far to the right side (away from the motor, back side, covers off), facing straight in, so that it's never directly on-axis w/ the spinning horn. Then one on the bottom, right side, same as above, but not as far away from the rotor. The "mics on opposite sides" technique has never sounded good to me, sound like the rotors are sppinning twice as fast, and too choppy. That's also why I like to mic off-axis, sounds smoother, less choppy. Obviously, for studio stuff, the technique would be different...
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That's why you gotta work for a bluegrass band. ;D Hines and I can be loaded out in 30 minutes on a good night, 45 if we are dragging ass. But we just bought a new Midas Verona for FOH and Im getting a new Crest to replace my XRM for monitors after the next tour, and we are going to expand our multi-tracking gear a little more, so it's getting bigger. Thank god we dont carry PA :D
When I did sound, I love Crest equipment. Especially the amplifiers. Though they weighed a ton... Yeah, be happy you don't have to move amplifier racks...
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When I did sound, I love Crest equipment. Especially the amplifiers. Though they weighed a ton... Yeah, be happy you don't have to move amplifier racks...
Yeah, I dont think we will ever travel with a full PA (at least no time soon), we have FOH and Monitor boards, so we bring in racks and stacks if the house gear isnt good enough. We are thinking about a couple of smaller Myers boxes to bring with us for center fills though. But they are self contained so no sweat. also glad YMSB uses In Ear monitors. Its a hell of alot easier to move a 16 space floater rack with wheels than it is to move amps, wedges, etc. than ring em' all out, then go deaf monitoring from a cue wedge. I use a pair of the in ears (Shure 700's with E5's) to monitor the band as well. Keeps me wireless & free so if something is going wrong on stage, I can just PFL that channel and listen to it while Im working on it. Plus If I have to take a leak, I can still hear the show and know that everything is still running smooth (or Not). Same thing when I have to run to the green room for a new beer ;)
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quoating the Guiness proffessors...
"BRILLIANT" !
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Try an m/s on the top horn middle of the slot, and a omni on the side slot in the same plane as the m/s but phased out. Saw this set up on a Leslie in Nashville, don't remember the band, but listening to the solo dry and wet, then mixed, it was amazing what kind of wicked images you could created from goofing with the m/s. Omni was oof.