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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: MattH on April 19, 2005, 01:33:23 AM
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Wow!!!
This thing upsamples everything to DSD on playback making all your existing 16 bit material sound better than 24/96. My entire collection has never really been heard yet. And I can't wait to hear what true DSD recordings sound like.
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DV-RA 1000 DSD Recorder rather.
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Forgive me as I'm not passing judgement. But how can a 16 bit recorded source sound better (or as good) as a 24 bit recorded source (if all things are equal like same mics, pre, ect.). I realize that it's using code to recreate the sound as it upsamples. But aren't you limited to the range of the 16 medium. again, I'm sure it sounds sweet. But I've been thinking about these "Upsampling" DVD players. The resolution can only be as good as the source.
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Forgive me as I'm not passing judgement. But how can a 16 bit recorded source sound better (or as good) as a 24 bit recorded source (if all things are equal like same mics, pre, ect.). I realize that it's using code to recreate the sound as it upsamples. But aren't you limited to the range of the 16 medium. again, I'm sure it sounds sweet. But I've been thinking about these "Upsampling" DVD players. The resolution can only be as good as the source.
my thoughts exactly. what was recorded was recorded.
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will it record longer than 50mins in DSD mode, the instuction manual seemed to say no, but first hand experience should clarify? How sensitive is it to skipping, I'd want to test putting it on a subwoofer while recording to see if it track well, as the bass in some shows could be equivalent.
peace, chris (a possible DSD recorder purchaser) =)
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I would not have thought it possible to improve the original 16 bit source upon DA conversion. I was a DSD disbeliever until yesterday. It blows my Apogee DA completely away. Makes it sound horrible in comparison. A seriously night and day difference. I'm still in shock.
Records 107 minutes continuous in DSD recording mode. You just need to add a manual track ID every 50 minutes or less to not exceeed the 2GB file size limit but you lose nothing inserting the track.
I am going to back up all my DAT recordings in 24/48 mode on DVD. I can easily fit a whole show on 1 disc and maybe 2 even shows. And it sounds sooooo much better although I could continue to listen to DAT with this Tascam as strictly a DA.
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one more question, do you know if it will downsample DSD to PCM so you can get 24/48 or 24/96 digital out of the recorder from your DSD recordings?
also have you tried to copy a DSD disc yet in your computer? if we could do this then we can upload the DSDIFF files to the net to be burned on PC burners and played back in the Tascam.
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No downsampling or downconverting on the Tascam itself. May be possible on the PC. Discwelder has new SACD authoring software out to take DSD-Raw to SACD. $3,000 now but probably $300 in a year.
I need to try and duplicate a DSD disc in my DVD duplicator. Keeping my fingers crossed. Otherwise, you may need software or a 2nd Tascam to make DSD clones.
I never realized how PCM can dessimate the quality of a good recording.
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No downsampling or downconverting on the Tascam itself. May be possible on the PC. Discwelder has new SACD authoring software out to take DSD-Raw to SACD. $3,000 now but probably $300 in a year.
Have you checked to see what is outputed on the digi outs during DSD playback?
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What Apogee D/A converter are you speaking of that this blows away?
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I am speaking of the Mini-DAC. Only SPDF-3 can carry the DSD digital stream. The other digi outs may pass PCM but I'm not sure yet.
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Forgive me as I'm not passing judgement. But how can a 16 bit recorded source sound better (or as good) as a 24 bit recorded source (if all things are equal like same mics, pre, ect.). I realize that it's using code to recreate the sound as it upsamples. But aren't you limited to the range of the 16 medium. again, I'm sure it sounds sweet. But I've been thinking about these "Upsampling" DVD players. The resolution can only be as good as the source.
my thoughts exactly. what was recorded was recorded.
but why can't manipulation of the source material make it sound better? I mean we apply DSP to material all the time, how is this any different?
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I checked the Owner's manual on this unit and it makes no mention of any type of upsampling of the signal... On first biref look anyway. Is there a menu setting for this? That would be excellent news. It's one of the key componenets of the resoultion that Ed Meitner is getting on some of his designs.
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DSD upsampling was the big surprise on this. No mention of it anywhere in the literature but it makes perfect sense since it's a DSD recorder. This is now a fact I'm happy to report!
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I'm sure it sounds better. Technology is great. I'm just wondering if a sweet playback system would give the same results, as this is artificially recreating the sound. I'm not that wise in the world of playback systems, in fact the playback forum gives me headaches :P.
I guess, it's kind of like adding normalization to a audio file. It may sound louder, but is it better?
Not a good analogy I know but I was trying to relate it.
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don't you think that 24/96 upsampled to DSD would sound better than 16/44.1 upsampled to DSD?
I think that is a better comparison, instead of 16/44.1 upsampled to DSD compared to 24/96 through a regular DAC.
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The good news is that everything sounds much better when upsampled to DSD. It is not artificial at all. It is more real than you can imagine if you have not heard it. Everything sounds like it did at the actual show and not like a tape of a show. I can't imagine anything more "real sounding". It can turn any playback system into a ultra high end audiophile system. I kid you not!
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i need to get one for archiving
tascam's faq:
Frequently Asked Questions about the DV-RA1000 • Updated March 23, 2005
Q: What is DSD?
A: Direct Stream Digital is a digital format devised by Sony for the Super Audio CD player. It plays audio at 2.822MHz, or 64 times the rate of a traditional 44.1KHz CD. It is a 1-bit signal, unlike the 16-bit signal of a CD. Many audiophiles agree that DSD has the best sound quality of any digital format, and better than any analog format as well.
Q: Does the DV-RA1000 record Super Audio CD or DVD-Audio discs?
A: No. It records audio files that are ideal for mastering to DVD-Audio (DVD-A) or Super Audio CD (SACD). However, discs recorded in the DV-RA1000 cannot be played in a SACD or DVD-A player.
Q: Does it play SACD or DVD-A discs?
A: No, it will play DV-RA1000 discs or CDs.
Q: Can I record and play back CDs?
A: Yes, the DV-RA1000 records standard CDs.
Q: Does it record DVD Video files that I can play in a DVD player?
A: No, there is no video on the unit and DV-RA1000 discs can't be played in a DVD player.
Q: What can I do with the discs?
A: The discs can be played in any computer with a DVD-ROM drive capable of playing DVD+RW discs. It creates UDF discs, a standard format read by virtually all computer platforms, including Mac, Windows and Linux. The files recorded are Broadcast Wave (.WAV) or DSDIFF (.DFF) files.
Q: What discs can I use?
A: TASCAM currently recommends DVD+RW media by Ricoh, Philips, Maxell, TDK or Sony, 4.7GB, up to 4x speed.
Q: Do I have to do anything to the discs before recording?
A: Discs have to be formatted before recording on them. The DV-RA1000 formats discs in the background: you'll notice the "CLOSE" indicator flashing in the display while this is happening. You can record or eject a disc before it is completely formatted, but to avoid problems TASCAM recommends waiting for a new disc to be completely formatted (about 30 minutes) before recording.
Q: How long can I record to DVD+RW?
A: The recording times are:
* 44.1kHz/24-bit (290 min.)
* 48kHz/24-bit (267 min.)
* 88.2kHz/24-bit (144 min.)
* 96kHz/24-bit (133 min.)
* 176.4kHz/24-bit (72 min.)
* 192kHz/24-bit (66 min.)
* DSD (2.8224MHz/1-bit, 109 min.)
Q: Can I record at higher sample rates than 44.1k/16-bit to CD?
A: No, recording to CD is only possible at "Red Book" audio CD resolution. The CD you record can be played in any CD player.
Q: How big is the hard drive?
A: There is no hard drive, the DV-RA1000 records directly to DVD or CD.
Q; Does the DV-RA1000 record and play back true Direct Stream Digital, or is it converted from PCM?
A: TASCAM worked with Sony to create a true DSD recorder. The A/D and D/A converters output true DSD resolution in addition to PCM signals. The A/D is a Burr Brown PCM1804, and the D/A is a DSD1792.
Q: What is the control port?
A: This is an RS-232C-compatible jack that can be connected to systems like Crestron¨ and AMX¨. Programming codes to control the recorder will be posted to tascamcontractor.com.
Q: What is a DSDIFF file?
A: A DSDIFF file is the standard file used for DSD recording. It can be read by DSD computer systems, such as Sony Sonoma¨, Philips SA-CD Creator and Sadie¨.
Q: What is an SDIF-3 jack?
A: This is used for digital connection to DSD computer systems or converters.
Q: How is 192kHz/24-bit audio sent digitally?
A: The AES/EBU connectors are capable of dual-speed/double-wire operation.
Q: How does the DV-RA1000 handle editing and DSP if it records directly to a disc?
A: You can edit, trim and process audio using a DVD+RW disc. If necessary, the audio is re-written to the disc.
Q: Can I edit all formats of audio?
A: No, you can only edit and process audio up to 96kHz. 192kHz and DSD audio can not be processed.
Q: I see "Read Error -61" on the display.
A: When you insert a disc, select a new project or even a new track, you'll notice the DISC light flashing as the RAM buffer fills up. Wait until the DISC light stops flashing before pressing PLAY to avoid disc read errors.
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A quote today from one of the most trusted sources in the taping community:
"Yes, once you hear PCM upsampled to true DSD ( not DSD using multiBit DACs, this is no better than PCM) PCM sounds bad !"
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a lot would depend on what you are listening back on though
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The sony digital receivers upsample pcm to dsd and this upsampling to dsd is a large part of why they sound so good.
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And it sounds even better going to your preamp/amp or receiver of choice. Honestly, this will make a poor system sound like a great one. We've been fooled for so long that high end expensive gear is required for great sound.
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While I'm not one of them I'm guessing alot of audiophiles are going to frown on it for some reason. But if you like it then, that's what matters.
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And it sounds even better going to your preamp/amp or receiver of choice. Honestly, this will make a poor system sound like a great one. We've been fooled for so long that high end expensive gear is required for great sound.
There is more to great sound than a source component. No?
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And it sounds even better going to your preamp/amp or receiver of choice. Honestly, this will make a poor system sound like a great one. We've been fooled for so long that high end expensive gear is required for great sound.
There is more to great sound than a source component. No?
Though I've not heard the tascam referenced above, I continue to be absolutely floored by the difference my sony strda5000es receiver has made to my system. My understanding is that a VERY large part of the improvement I've noticed stems from the sony's use of dsd upsampling.
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Another way to put it is:
DSD on a Low-Fi system is going to sound better than PCM on an audiophile system. DSD on the same system will blow PCM away. It's that simple.
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Another way to put it is:
DSD on a Low-Fi system is going to sound better than PCM on an audiophile system.
okay, I was with you up until this point.
do you have any way of supporting this assertion at all?
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we have some good pricing on these. pm me if you're in the market for one.
jr
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Bought mine for $1,099 from a national retailer. Initials are FC and located in Wisconsin.
In my experience, the difference between upsampled DSD and the same PCM source is greater than the difference between Hi_Fi PCM and Low-Fi PCM. I think that's makes for a reasonable assertion but I will actually do this test to confirm.
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what is the rest of your playback system? Just looking for a frame of reference...
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I'm in WI, and the initials FC are baffling me. ???
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alright, having taken many systems and signals classes and a lot of digital signal processing, here is my guess as to why it will sound better:
when a PCM wave is recorded, the 24 bits (or 16) from the AD are stored somewhere. as the recording progresses, each sample is recorded at a distinct time (k*f where k>=0 and f is the sampling rate). This means that when it goes to play it back, there has to be some interperlation. this means that it places the sample next to the previous sample and connects them with a line (or best guess curve using previous values). then it goes to the next sample and repeats the process, forever guessing what is exactly between the sample. i know most people think that when sampling at such a high rate it wouldn't make much difference, but it will.
now DSD uses a 1-bit-delta scheme. this means that it doesn't interpolate, but just add or subtract one unit (guessing its somewhere in the range of a millionth of of Hz) from the previous value. this means that it will always be smoother then PCM because it never "guesses". this would also account for the reason it must sample so fast. if the sound went from 0 dB to -20 dB, it needs to be able to complete that transition very fast. if it lags (that is, doesn't get down to the desired value fast enough), the sound will suffer.
please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this may help some people understand the difference between the two
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It would also be interesting to see what D/A your old playback had. The D/A in your new setup has a lot to do with the new sound IMO. It's the whole reason we have $5K blue book players. You can only make the transport and laser so well.
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ok, full compass.
comparing to: Apogee, HHB, and Denon D/A's
using: Meyer 500 amp (600wpc), Meyer 500 speakers, Denon and Gemini pre's, Infinity Kappa 5.1, Denon AVR-85, Sennheiser HD-280
BWolf has it right. But I'm not sure how upsampling really works.
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i think the most important point to understand is that digital systems are discrete time, that is each sample is taken at a time k*T where k is some positive integer. when using the DSD encoding scheme, they effectively make it a continuous time system by just using 1 bit delta encoding and by making the sampling rate extrememly high. like other digital components, switching time is usually the most importand factor. because DSD can switch the output faster and more accurately then PCM, it will in essence sound better
i could be way off 8)....i guess this is a good test to see how good my schooling was
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BWolf, I'm following, but a little confused as to how amplitude changes are represented. One bit isn't a lot of numbers to work with to represent amplitude. How does that work?
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alright, here are the two scenarios. first PCM take discrete time sample and actually records each sample independently, then interpolates between them. DSD uses whats called one bit delta encoding. i'm not sure exactly how they encode, but lets just say a digital "1" means to go up one unit and a digital "0" means go down one unit. DSD uses whats called a differential scheme, where the next state depends on both the current state and the input. so lets just say that the "current state" is 5 volts and the input (DSD encoded number) is a one. the next state would then be "5 V + 1 unit". if the DSD bit was a zero, then the next state would be "5 V - 1 unit"
edit to add: the unit that is added or subtracted MUST be a predetermined value. none of this would work if it was just a random amount of change!!
does that make any sense?
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If you want to know why Sony thinks that it's such a good idea check out this document on the technology behind the digital amplifiers.
DSD is esentially the same type of idea Skip the filters sample 1.92 million times per second to re-create the sine wave! Much smaller stairs there for sure.
Note that it metions the analog input is upsampled to DSD for the purposes of sending it to the reveiver, our experience was that the analog inputs were still a limitiation due to the input circuits used before the upsampling occurred. I'm not sure if PCM is upsampled in the Digital path or not?
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDA9000ES_TWP.pdf
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I would think the digital in upsampling to DSD on the Sony receivers is better than the anolog in upsampling to DSD.
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sounds like i'm going to have to invite myself over to hear this thing in person
:)
mitch
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thanks for the link to that sony document.
I ain't no digital engineer but as far as upsampling to DSD, the only benefit that I can see would be jitter reduction (if you believe everything they wrote). And there are other ways to go at jitter.
Anyone else have insights?
DSD recording does sound interesting, but there were far too many references to "digital transmission content protection". We all know how Sony likes to lock everything down.
There were a few things in there that made me skeptical about some of the theory. I like the way they talked about using switch mode power supplies but then for the top model, move back to a toroidal transformer just like other high end gear. All in all, it read like propaganda. I suppose I should shut up and go listen to one now.
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No question about it. DSD completely rules. So much higher resolution than 16 bit and 24 bit. It really is that much better and I don't think it has anything to do with jitter .
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No question about it. DSD completely rules. So much higher resolution than 16 bit and 24 bit. It really is that much better and I don't think it has anything to do with jitter .
ok but inquiring minds want to know why dsd upsampling a regular old CD would improve sound.
Analogy 1: I can take a picture in photoshop and increase the DPI to whatever I want but the actual resolution will be limited to the original. Any extrapolations of accuracy will still be based on the original resolution.
Analogy 2: I can take an audio file, convert to 24/192 but it will remain no more accurate than the original.
Not saying it doesn't work...I just want to know why!
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I run an upsampling DAC in my hi-fi system (Bel Canto DAC 2... 24/192 upsampling) and though I don't really grasp the science behind it, nor do I really care to, my ears do not lie... it definitely sounds better
here are a few links...
http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/dacsandupsamplers.htm
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/upsamplingvsoversampling2.php
http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/upandover.htm
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Discwelder has new SACD authoring software out to take DSD-Raw to SACD. $3,000 now but probably $300 in a year.
So we WILL one day be able to create SACD's from these raw DSDIFF files? If that's true, that just means we simply have to wait until it is easy to do so.
I've heard two different sides as to whether or not SACD will be in our future; that's one thing I'd really like to know.
I see that this unit has balanced XLR inputs. Is that what you're feeding it? You could just throw a V2 in front of this bad boy and you have one slick setup...
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also, who else is giving this serious consideration?
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Has XLR and RCA line ins. I used the RCA's since I was coming out of my Nakamichi preamp. V2 has both XLR and RCA line outs. I'm thinking of getting the Mini-MP to use in front when I'm not running a 3 mic mix.
DSD-Raw will be around for a very long time whether it's the basis for SACD or something else that follows or when everything just becomes DSD.
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Don't count on having the ability to produce your own SACD's. I would be willing to bet that playback will be limited to machines like this one or in an editing suite. Even trun key DSD recording systems write the DIFF files to tape to send to a production house.
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I'm thinking of getting the Mini-MP to use in front when I'm not running a 3 mic mix.
You know apogee is having a nice sale, buy two mini-mp's and get the third free! who's in? ;)
Don't count on having the ability to produce your own SACD's. I would be willing to bet that playback will be limited to machines like this one or in an editing suite. Even trun key DSD recording systems write the DIFF files to tape to send to a production house.
really? d'oh
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Don't count on having the ability to produce your own SACD's. I would be willing to bet that playback will be limited to machines like this one or in an editing suite. Even trun key DSD recording systems write the DIFF files to tape to send to a production house.
sacd is dying... sony's own labels aren't even going to put out material for much longer.
blu-ray and hd-dvd are coming
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Here's a fluff for the DSD recorder and Panic...(from Doug Oade at the oade.com board)
#2789, "Tascam DV-RA1000 DSD Mode"
Thu Apr-28-05 12:23 PM by Doug
Hi All !
Well, Chris was kind enough to give me space and AC power so I could run the DV-RA1000 last night for my first DSD recording of WSP in Tallahassee Florida.
I ran the Schoeps MTSC-64 into an HHb Classic 80 Mic preamp into the DV-RA1000. I ran the DV-RA1000's input in the bypass mode and that requires a lot of gain. The HHb pre was set to 30 dB of gain and the drive controls set for a fair amount of tube saturation with the output level control at near max. The output stage was set to it's lower output level as I am not fond of the sound in the high output mode, too much noise. This gave me enough level to get near 0dB for the peaks. While I was too tired last night to haul in the gear to connect to my reference system, I have it playing now here at work into a Sony 5000ES driving the Tannoy Dual Concentric and it is a mighty sound. Almost as impressive as the kick ass, heart stopping, soul satisfying sound of the new Widespread Panic ! I am still waiting on another DSD recorder so I can make backups of the data but for now I am doing a transfer to 24/48 on the Warm MOD FR-2. The DSD recorder writes to DVD+RW disc, this made me nervous as I was running it on the risers with dancers creating a fair amount of vibration but so far, no errors or troubles. This thing is damn slow in changing disc. I was worried about chopping the encore so I put my 3rd disc in to be safe. It had to write data on the disc before ejecting and then initialize the new disc. It seemed to take an eternity to do this, I was pleased that upon start up, it jumped forward in record time, writing the data to disc that it had loaded into the memory buffer. I just did get the first note of the encore.
As much as I am impressed by the sound of DSD, that pales by comparison to the power of the new sound of WSP. They are a mighty force that is certain to drive even more deep emotion and heart felt energy into the depths of the souls of their fans for years to come. We are talking a total package here, the new sound system provided by 8th Day is impressive, the best clarity and detail I have heard out of WSP. Everyone was easy to hear at all times, JB's guitar was mixed at the perfect level and I could hear layers and textures in the work he does so easily with his having to be loud in the mix, I just loved it. Chris did a great job as did everyone, the new light rig is sweet. I used to think Chris would be able to equal John O' work, now I feel he is going to press John O to learn more just to keep up .
None of the HF nasties that plagued the older XL4 based system, just clean detailed sound. Possibly the new board, possibly the fact the mic pres were on stage and the phase problems that one gets when a mic pushes several hundred feet of cable , mic splits and various inputs disappeared. Maybe this is why the XL4 sounds merely average ( i.e. too much resolution), in every system with every engineer behind the controls, I just know I like the new rig.
I hope to add more as I am moved to rant on for some time, but sadly, must earn a living !
peace....Doug
BTW, GO SEE PANIC !
and get 100 times your monies worth
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sacd is dying... sony's own labels aren't even going to put out material for much longer.
blu-ray and hd-dvd are coming
OK so sacd is dying, but I guess my question is more along the lines of whether or not DSD will actually replace PCM. DSD does not HAVE to be played via SACD, correct?
(I've read all of the threads here at TS, sorry if I'm repeating tired old questions).
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Don't count on having the ability to produce your own SACD's. I would be willing to bet that playback will be limited to machines like this one or in an editing suite. Even trun key DSD recording systems write the DIFF files to tape to send to a production house.
sacd is dying... sony's own labels aren't even going to put out material for much longer.
blu-ray and hd-dvd are coming
yep. i think both DVD-A and SACD are dying formats.
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sacd is dying... sony's own labels aren't even going to put out material for much longer.
blu-ray and hd-dvd are coming
OK so sacd is dying, but I guess my question is more along the lines of whether or not DSD will actually replace PCM. DSD does not HAVE to be played via SACD, correct?
(I've read all of the threads here at TS, sorry if I'm repeating tired old questions).
that is true, but I'm not aware of any articles tying dsd to any of the new formats...
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sacd is dying... sony's own labels aren't even going to put out material for much longer.
blu-ray and hd-dvd are coming
OK so sacd is dying, but I guess my question is more along the lines of whether or not DSD will actually replace PCM. DSD does not HAVE to be played via SACD, correct?
(I've read all of the threads here at TS, sorry if I'm repeating tired old questions).
that is true, but I'm not aware of any articles tying dsd to any of the new formats...
cool, if I could give you a postive T I would, but I don't think I can?
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The new formats are storage formats for fitting much more data on a disc which will allow for high definition video data. DSD will work fine with more storage space. But you don't need a 2nd DVD recorder to back up the data. My $300 dvd duplicator does that work just fine.
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The new formats are storage formats for fitting much more data on a disc which will allow for high definition video data. DSD will work fine with more storage space. But you don't need a 2nd DVD recorder to back up the data. My $300 dvd duplicator does that work just fine.
Exactly, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are not exactly the same thing as DVD-A or SACD although they are using new encoding algorithims for Video on the new discs. The death or lack thereof for DVD-A and SACD will really be about demand. I don't see it as something that will ever be something that the main stream market clamors for but I do see it continuing as a Niche market for the audiphile community. It really does sound that much better.
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The new formats are storage formats for fitting much more data on a disc which will allow for high definition video data. DSD will work fine with more storage space. But you don't need a 2nd DVD recorder to back up the data. My $300 dvd duplicator does that work just fine.
Exactly, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are not exactly the same thing as DVD-A or SACD although they are using new encoding algorithims for Video on the new discs. The death or lack thereof for DVD-A and SACD will really be about demand. I don't see it as something that will ever be something that the main stream market clamors for but I do see it continuing as a Niche market for the audiphile community. It really does sound that much better.
I understand the differences, and I'm glad someone is trying this out (dsd recording) I'm just not sure what the future of the format is for our pro-sumer world...
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So, I guess if your player is SACD compatable, and the production and support of the format is "abandoned" by the big names (ie Sony), then there is a decent chance that the software to create such discs (as mentioned before) would be in less demand, thereby possibly being "abandoned" and made much cheaper...Could be good for us trader/archiving/listening nuts!
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So, I guess if your player is SACD compatable, and the production and support of the format is "abandoned" by the big names (ie Sony), then there is a decent chance that the software to create such discs (as mentioned before) would be in less demand, thereby possibly being "abandoned" and made much cheaper...Could be good for us trader/archiving/listening nuts!
until the supply runs dry
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until the supply runs dry
but cant sacd discs be burned on dual layer dvds..?
so how long 'til a field recorder can record dsd - that would be the sh*t...
so it looks like we WILL be able to create our own sacds!!!
i am f*cking drooling over this - i LOVE the sound of my sacd player - it would be the ultimate to be able to record in the field in that quality!!!
wow.
+t for the new toy, matth.
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this is potentially very cool, I'm just a little hesitant about all of this stuff :P
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I second Tim's feeling on this one. Albeit, DSD sounds incredible, so much of what we do is sharing and distribution of recorded live music. With the limitations of this type of data duplication and playback, it would be like walking down a deadend road. I would rather spend my money on a DSD receiver just for playback untill a more universal DSD format and duplication software/system is established. If you have a receiver that does the DSD upsampling of our crappy PCM recordings, why have to buy a burner that creates discs that you can only use on that player? The truly great thing would be what Macdaddy suggested (and Doug obviously did) to record DSD in the field, no upsampling just beautiful direct stream digital.
my $0.02
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Will Flac Frontend compress DSD information?
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Will Flac Frontend compress DSD information?
i'd have to say no, as FLAC deals with PCM encoded data. DSD is osmething different all together. i could be wrong though.
however i think both SACD and DVD-A are dying formats in the professional world. Blue Ray all the way i think.
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Will Flac Frontend compress DSD information?
i'd have to say no, as FLAC deals with PCM encoded data. DSD is osmething different all together. i could be wrong though.
however i think both SACD and DVD-A are dying formats in the professional world. Blue Ray all the way i think.
I'm still curious about this... is Blue Ray an actual encoding scheme? I thought that it was a storage solution allowing them to put larger amounts of data on a single discs. SACD is nothing more than DVD type media being produced with special water marking and highly protected mastering code.
Granted the larger capacity discs are on their way but how do you see this as the successor to the technology.
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SACD is very much different from DVD. DVD's use PCM. SACD use DSD.
the reason lots of people think these are dying formats is because of the whole concept of a physical medium of a compact disc or DVD. everybody's downloading music. it's only a matter of time before everbody has a pocket music player and purchases/downloads albums online. I think it's going to happen to sooner than later.
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alright, having taken many systems and signals classes and a lot of digital signal processing, here is my guess as to why it will sound better:
when a PCM wave is recorded, the 24 bits (or 16) from the AD are stored somewhere. as the recording progresses, each sample is recorded at a distinct time (k*f where k>=0 and f is the sampling rate). This means that when it goes to play it back, there has to be some interperlation. this means that it places the sample next to the previous sample and connects them with a line (or best guess curve using previous values). then it goes to the next sample and repeats the process, forever guessing what is exactly between the sample. i know most people think that when sampling at such a high rate it wouldn't make much difference, but it will.
now DSD uses a 1-bit-delta scheme. this means that it doesn't interpolate, but just add or subtract one unit (guessing its somewhere in the range of a millionth of of Hz) from the previous value. this means that it will always be smoother then PCM because it never "guesses". this would also account for the reason it must sample so fast. if the sound went from 0 dB to -20 dB, it needs to be able to complete that transition very fast. if it lags (that is, doesn't get down to the desired value fast enough), the sound will suffer.
please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this may help some people understand the difference between the two
I think that you would be saying that DSD is not clocked, but it is.
It does look at differences, not absolutes, but so does iDEN, which sound like ass even for voice.
[ EDIT on filterering senior moment...]
If it sounds good to you, all technology bets are off.
Try to expain why the 300B 1940's vacuum tube amps sound so much better than alot of "advanced" technology.
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I'm thinking of getting the Mini-MP to use in front when I'm not running a 3 mic mix.
You know apogee is having a nice sale, buy two mini-mp's and get the third free! who's in? ;)
Meet up at B&H on 34th Street ?
I'm totally game ! 8)
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m0k3-
if you really want to reap the benefits, you want to record in the field using dsd...
the transfer to dsd > sacd is lossless
my understanding is that once the music goes to the PCM realm, it has lost some information that dsd contains...
yes your 24/96 stuff will sound bitchin' when resampled to dsd, but it will not be as true as a straight dsd-recorded source...
i have read alot of what ludwig has gone trough when transferring the analog tapes to DSD. this is the reason that the glitches are left in, or simply finessed in the analog realm. all dsd does is a VERY (read "currently the finest") job of capturing ALL information it is presented with. taking that signal to pcm, and editing a glitch in the digital realm, would result in making the source now no different than a dvd-a, and sacd/dsd has more to offer than 24/96
long answer to your question, but i hope it makes sense - you could go 24/96 > dsd, but all you would be doing is adding dither(?)/resampling. if you want to be real hi-res, go dsd > sacd...
i am thinking i will likely stay with the modSBM-1 (16/48) for a while, and hold my breath for a compact dsd field solution to come along...
what, did you buy a sacd player..?
[drools]
I'm just getting my first taste of DSD in a sacd recording that I purchased last night.
If this Tas unit can do anything near that for me,..... I'm sold.
Now i just gotta fund this whole 24bit upgrade thing,......
So,....
Will a signal captured at 24/96, or other high-res sample rate, via a 722, for instance,... Will this be able to be used to make transfers straight to this DSD unit?
sorry if this is a retarded question, but I like the stand-alone realm much more than the computer dimension.
[/drool]
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To really reap the benefits you'll want to be recording directly in DSD... Once you run through the filters you've kind of defeated the purpose. It does work well the other way around however. DiscWelder Chrome has a .diff import utility to created DVD-Audio at 24/192 from the DSD master files. It's the only way to offload it into a "Consumer" format unless you want to pay the $500 to a mastering house to have your initial SACD pressed for production.
But if you have one of the Tascam recorders then you can trade or playback anyone else's recordings on a similar machine.
Tascam's portable DSD recorder is "In the Oven"....
Can't wait to see what it's all about.
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Jammin'72 wrote:
Tascam's portable DSD recorder is "In the Oven"....
Can't wait to see what it's all about.
you and me both!
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To really reap the benefits you'll want to be recording directly in DSD... Once you run through the filters you've kind of defeated the purpose. It does work well the other way around however. DiscWelder Chrome has a .diff import utility to created DVD-Audio at 24/192 from the DSD master files. It's the only way to offload it into a "Consumer" format unless you want to pay the $500 to a mastering house to have your initial SACD pressed for production.
But if you have one of the Tascam recorders then you can trade or playback anyone else's recordings on a similar machine.
Tascam's portable DSD recorder is "In the Oven"....
Can't wait to see what it's all about.
Honestly confused,....
Was this directed at my comment, regarding running a v3 in front?
yes -it more eloquently and acurately states what i was trying to say in layman's terms to you in an above post the other day...
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regardless,... for my uses, if it happens,... it'll still be getting rammed full of V3 (or mma6000) signal, as I don't have any other mic pre.
oh absolutely...
but if you are using the v3, then there are other machines you could be using to record the full output of the v3...
the tascam unit will still do the dsd upsampling of the full throttle v3 source for you...
but the point being made was that if you record natively to dsd - then you reap the full benefits of the format, rather than the /synthetic/ benefits (the same way that a source recorded @ 24/96 is more desireable than the 16/44.1 source, upsampled on playback to 24/96 via the DAC. still sounds sweet, but it isn't true 24/96 audio...
buy one, m0k3 - i would love to see it in the field (i have some time off - i'd be happy to help you run it). that acoustic stuff you record will sound fantastic. dont think we can wheel it into the bowl for the la phil, though :P
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Honestly confused,....
Was this directed at my comment, regarding running a v3 in front?
in doing more reading,.... is this because the digi-signal from the V3 is pcm?
Would this unit be better driven via just an analog send, and let the onboard systems work?
It was really just directed at the idea of going from a 24/96 source to DSD however that would happen. You can still run the V3... just run from the Analog outs into a recorder like the Tascam, you then have the digital outs to go to another type of recorder or a PC and you can get whatever bit rate you like. It would actually be a nice comparison of sorts!
Let's hope the protable unit is supported by a good front end... my guess is you'll be wanting to run an external in front of it.
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Yeah, I think Doug Oade mentioned something in his reviewing of the DV-RA1000 about wanting to run the V2 full throttle into it, or something like that... so if you get the DSD unit, just pretend the V3 is the V2 you used to run!
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you mean this thing has Doug actually thinking about abandoning his trusty D-8??? is the sky falling?? :P
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Yeah, Doug seems pretty excited about the whole DSD idea... If it can get the right support from manufacturers, etc., then it may be a great thing for all!
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You didn't?!
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I so did it! 8)
congrats moke, +T...from my favorite retailer?
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then handed down the punishment sentence for breaking probation.
care to get more specific here? :P
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nice Moke, and I understand the probation...had she not heard what the 722 was capable of before I bought it she would have divorced me on the spot when it showed up :P
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+t for the new toy, m0k3
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Moke, you do realize that you're now on the cutting edge of technology, having bypassed all of us PCM recordists.
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I so did it! 8)
oh hell yeah
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you mean this thing has Doug actually thinking about abandoning his trusty D-8??? is the sky falling?? :P
Already been abaondoned for the Audiophile Warm Mod FR-2!! Which makes me drool by the way.
I was in the shop today and he's workin on finishing the tweaks to the PMD-660 units.... says he'll get 'em as good or better than the UA-5's!!
I still got to get out there and hear that new DCC-2.
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will it record longer than 50mins in DSD mode, the instuction manual seemed to say no, but first hand experience should clarify? How sensitive is it to skipping, I'd want to test putting it on a subwoofer while recording to see if it track well, as the bass in some shows could be equivalent.
peace, chris (a possible DSD recorder purchaser) =)
This came up today. The Panic recording that Doug just made in Tallahassee was done in the Colisuem on the pull out aluminium style risers with the AC and Mic cables run to the Soundboard. With folks dancin' and going up and down at will he made it through the whole show with no problems.
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BTW if you really want to tick off the sarge you should pick up a BigBen to use as an external clock for the DAV-R1000... rumor has it that it is once again a huge improvement in the playback of the unit.
Matt...
I did a quick paruse over this thread to find out the DVD Duper you were using to make backups of your discs and can't seem to find it quickly... mind refreshing my memory?
Thanks!
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thanks,.... uhhhmm. I'm thinking tht its best if'n I wait til I do anything else at this point.
It was sort of like getting your butt sandpapered with 50grit sandpaper, and then alcohol swabbed.
Ouch!!
+T to start the Healing.
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BTW if you really want to tick off the sarge you should pick up a BigBen to use as an external clock for the DAV-R1000... rumor has it that it is once again a huge improvement in the playback of the unit.
Matt...
I did a quick paruse over this thread to find out the DVD Duper you were using to make backups of your discs and can't seem to find it quickly... mind refreshing my memory?
Thanks!
we need to find out if a PC (or MAC) image of the disc can be burned and used for playback this will facilitate internet sharing of discs (archive.org, etc.)
peace, chris
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btw: I'm just waiting on my R1000 to arrive =)
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http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/stream_heads/
feel free to join in, we'll try to get Doug Oade to join in as well, I'll work on setting up a FAQ once I get rolling with the machine, then we can work on seeding guidlines once we find out how we can share recordings via the net, etc.
peace, chris
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Chris,
Somewhere in one of his posts, MattH said that he was able to copy the disc via his dvd duplicator, a basic stand-alone unit.
I read that, but, the Tascam manual states that computers can't be used to create discs playable by the unit, if a standalone works, then most probably, creating an image file on the PC and then burning should work. If it does we can share recordings by posting the image files on archive.org, etc. instead of doing snail mail trades only.
peace, chris
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Doug told me today that he couldn't get any of his PC's to recognize the disc... that's too bad.
Matt was mentioning an Acard DVD Duplicator that was doing the trick.
From a quick search it looks like they sell the controller module separately... looks like if you have a reader and a writer you can save a little $$.
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the discs are supposed to be able to be read by a PC. You might need a reader that will support the burned DVDs which can be an issue.
My big interest in the unit is not only archival quality concert sources but also to be able to convert many cassettes to an archival format for future use/ future noise reduction etc. Being able to get these files off of DVD and on to the hard disc to post on the net is very important to me for this reason. Hopefully we can make it work.
peace, chris
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The PCM files are readable by most computers but you need DSD software for DSD files. Sonic Solutions and Discwelder have the lowest cost ware but it's 3 grand and up. Hope fully $300 in a year. In the meantime it's gonna be dvd duplicators and old fashioon trades.
We need to redigitize all good analog again. Whose got my Nak CR-7A?
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The PCM files are readable by most computers but you need DSD software for DSD files. Sonic Solutions and Discwelder have the lowest cost ware but it's 3 grand and up. Hope fully $300 in a year. In the meantime it's gonna be dvd duplicators and old fashioon trades.
We need to redigitize all good analog again. Whose got my Nak CR-7A?
I understand that the dff files aren't playable on the PC right now but they have to be readable (meaning you can see them on the disc, transfer them, but not play them). If a DVD duplicator can copy them, then they are probably just files, on the disc, but maybe in UDF format, so drivers (included with programs like nero would be needed to grab the image). Of couse this is all speculation til I start playing with the unit.
Either way though through the USB 2.0 connection might be another means to image the disc.
peace, chris
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just saw this on the the TASCAM website:
What can I do with the discs?
A: The discs can be played in any computer with a DVD-ROM drive capable of playing DVD+RW discs. It creates UDF discs, a standard format read by virtually all computer platforms, including Mac, Windows and Linux. The files recorded are Broadcast Wave (.WAV) or DSDIFF (.DFF) files.
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I am also interested to find out if the AES digi output sends anything or can be configured to send anything while playing a DSD disc....this would allow conversion to a more playable format with out a $3k computer program.
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just saw this on the the TASCAM website:
What can I do with the discs?
A: The discs can be played in any computer with a DVD-ROM drive capable of playing DVD+RW discs. It creates UDF discs, a standard format read by virtually all computer platforms, including Mac, Windows and Linux. The files recorded are Broadcast Wave (.WAV) or DSDIFF (.DFF) files.
so we can put these up on the LlaMA..
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so we can put these up on the LlaMA..
The .dff files can be extracted, but, the issue is, since tascam does something screwy with the file system, can an image be made of the disc so that it can be downloaded and burned so it'll be readable. Burning the .dff files alone will not play. It'd be like burning a wav on to a cd-r and trying to play it in a wal-mart special cd boombox.....not gonna happen =)
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You can definitely pre-format discs and re-insert them when ready to record. This is actually recommended since it's a 30 minute process even though it can be done in the background while recording.
I think the program to recognize the files is the licensing fee. No way around it. The readers, writers and controlers don't change. My duplicator copies it but my cd player doesn't recognize it.
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You can definitely pre-format discs and re-insert them when ready to record. This is actually recommended since it's a 30 minute process even though it can be done in the background while recording.
I think the program to recognize the files is the licensing fee. No way around it. The readers, writers and controlers don't change. My duplicator copies it but my cd player doesn't recognize it.
right - but how long until it is an add-on to nero..?
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I mean't to say dvd player as an analogy to the PC reading issue.
Yes, the Tas. reads the DSD clone perfectly! As it also does my new 24/48 archive disc clones. It's kinda cool to transfer 16/48 to 24/48 on dvd.
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The PCM files are readable by most computers but you need DSD software for DSD files. Sonic Solutions and Discwelder have the lowest cost ware but it's 3 grand and up. Hope fully $300 in a year. In the meantime it's gonna be dvd duplicators and old fashioon trades.
We need to redigitize all good analog again. Whose got my Nak CR-7A?
Actually...
I have one! It needs a bit of work (I think the rewind doesn't work) but it plays tapes OK.
Got it from a neighbor that was a fellow long time Hi-Fi guy when he moved. I've been meaning to e-Bay it but haven't gotten around to it yet.
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Congrats, Moke!
So, I pulled up the tascam site to learn about this recorder. It uses the same A/D chip as the V3 -- the PCM1804. In looking up specs on the PCM1804 chip earlier today, I noticed that it can provide both PCM output and DSD output.
Time to get with Grace to have them mod your V3 for DSD output. Looks like the DV-RA1000 accepts a digital DSD input, so then you'd be all set. Of course, if you use the V3 analog outs for the front end, and if both the DV-RA1000 and the V3 use the PCM1804 A/D chip, then maybe there wouldn't be alot of difference anyway.
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Congrats, Moke!
So, I pulled up the tascam site to learn about this recorder. It uses the same A/D chip as the V3 -- the PCM1804. In looking up specs on the PCM1804 chip earlier today, I noticed that it can provide both PCM output and DSD output.
Time to get with Grace to have them mod your V3 for DSD output. Looks like the DV-RA1000 accepts a digital DSD input, so then you'd be all set. Of course, if you use the V3 analog outs for the front end, and if both the DV-RA1000 and the V3 use the PCM1804 A/D chip, then maybe there wouldn't be alot of difference anyway.
Email sent to Grace Designs...
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I have been seeing prices in the $1200-1300 range. I am going to hold off for a little while and wait and see if a portable unit pops up in the next 6 months or so. I also want to see if this format gets any support where I can burn my own discs and play it on a SACD player. If this becomes a reality soon, I see no point in purchasing a 24bit PCM recorder...
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i wonder if mike grace opens his email every day just wondering what kind of off-the-wall requests he's going to get on a given day?
moke-make sure you include a request to incorporate the flux capacitor into the v4 for time travel.
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I have been seeing prices in the $1200-1300 range. I am going to hold off for a little while and wait and see if a portable unit pops up in the next 6 months or so. I also want to see if this format gets any support where I can burn my own discs and play it on a SACD player. If this becomes a reality soon, I see no point in purchasing a 24bit PCM recorder...
my sentiments exactly.
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Moke,
I don't consider that lame at all. If DSD becomes the format of choice, then I will go that route for a portable unit and probably also purchase the DV-RA1000. If 24bit PCM stays around, then I will keep my Masterlink (for local shows with power), and get a 24bit portable PCM recorder! Either way, I may purchase the Tascam unit anyway just for my own personal listening! I'm just waiting right now! Come on DSD!!! ;D
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Don't count on being able to make your own SACD's... Sony is going to fight that tooth and nail, but if you can play them in a machine like the Tascam what does it matter really? So you can't pass it out as SACD to friends who don't have a machine. We already see this with 16 and 24 bit offers, no big deal. It's not like there's an SACD portable or Car player that you need to support. The technology is already there to make the recordings and play them back! I think that it's going to stay a format of choice for engineers that can hear and be relegated to capturing the most/best data possible for subsequent processing. For how long were DAT's made that could only be played back on a myriad of esoteric gear before the ability to dump it to CD became available. It's all part of it. The way to figure is take a listen... if you can't hear the difference there is already a world of 24 bit PCM recording solutions available to you. If you do hear that DSD is doing something no other medium can then.... whatchya gonna do?
Ummm this is all said by a guy who can't make the jump until after he gets graduated and a real job BTW... so big grain of salt. ;D
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Sony is going to fight that tooth and nail, but if you can play them in a machine like the Tascam what does it matter really?
interesting point...
but i thought that is why some of those computer dvd authoring programs cost so much, because you are paying sony the sacd licensing fee...
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Sony is going to fight that tooth and nail, but if you can play them in a machine like the Tascam what does it matter really?
interesting point...
but i thought that is why some of those computer dvd authoring programs cost so much, because you are paying sony the sacd licensing fee...
The "Authoring Programs" that were mentioned here will still not produce an SACD... they work with an create .DIFF files that have to be send to a production facility to produce and actual SACD, they want about $500 for the first pressing and $2 a disc thereafter.
Believe it or not they systems are designed to write the information to TAPE so that you can send it to the production facility!
So you can record to the Tascam or your PC with one of these programs, tweak it in one of the programs, but you still got a get it to the big boys to make an actual SACD disc.
Crazy no...
It's actually part of the reason that I think that there is a chance the big engineers will adopt the format, simply to become exclusive again. However in this case we get better sound in the deal!
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The Sonic Solutions and Discwelder authoring programs take DSD-Raw and converts it to SACD. So you don't really have to send anything to a production house unless it saves money on the 100 SACD copies of the one show you may need to make for all your friends with SACD players.
I think the price of this Tas. unit will come down a lot as they did with the first DAT recorders.
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If the V3 can output DSD with it's existing AD chip, then it will need the proprietary SPDIF 3 interface which uses 2 BNC cables, 1 for each channel.
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have you guys heard recordings made with this?
if so where can i find them? i'd like to hear if they have the same characteristics above 8kHz as some of other DSD recordings i've heard on SACD. i've heard wretched DSD recordings where i preffered the 16/44.1 CD sound over the SACD because of what it did to the high end. But i've also heard plenty of fantastic recordings as well. Would just like to see what this puppy does.
edit: moke if you leave 1 RU space in your rack between your two units you should be ok.
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I've got four recordings in the next to weekends after this one.
All four are chamber ensembles. The show starts with a piano and organ duet of a Rachmaninoff concerto, and then the second set is a small baroque orchestra, with piano and organ, and choir. All acoustic music, in nice sounding halls. My last recordings from these halls are for sale by the ensemble at the concerts.
There are two rehearsals, played as if live, to tape. And then the two live peformances.
It'll get a good workout in its first couple of weekends ;)
so your answer to my question is "no i haven't heard any recordings made with this but i will be making some soon" ?
hmmmmm
as for teh DSD output on the V3? i don't think it will happen. not enough room in the box or the back panel. unless they got rid of the all the digi outputs except DSD. just a speculation on my part at this point though.
i'm skeptical on DSD in general so that's playing a big part in my curiosity in this particular unit. don't worry, i won't be like bean in the 722 forum. I'll play nice :P
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OK,.... care to discuss mounting this unit in a rack?
Single unit rack, or multi-unit rack for air space around the unit for cooling?
Multi unit rack for a power conditioner also?
I realize its all speculation at this point, but I'm thinking about rack mounting this and possibly my tas cdr700 together, but I'm concerned about heat buildup with the two units cooking discs.
any thoughts?
thanks
I have my Masterlink in a 3U rack-bag with my powerconditioner. I have been running this for local 24/96 recordings and I have never had a problem! Also, I have always run an outboard A/D and I am not burning discs in real-time. I have no idea how much heat the Tascam unit creates...
I also like to have my power conditioner with me in clubs/bars where the power is not the most reliable...
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I've got four recordings in the next to weekends after this one.
All four are chamber ensembles. The show starts with a piano and organ duet of a Rachmaninoff concerto, and then the second set is a small baroque orchestra, with piano and organ, and choir. All acoustic music, in nice sounding halls. My last recordings from these halls are for sale by the ensemble at the concerts.
There are two rehearsals, played as if live, to tape. And then the two live peformances.
It'll get a good workout in its first couple of weekends ;)
so your answer to my question is "no i haven't heard any recordings made with this but i will be making some soon" ?
hmmmmm
as for teh DSD output on the V3? i don't think it will happen. not enough room in the box or the back panel. unless they got rid of the all the digi outputs except DSD. just a speculation on my part at this point though.
i'm skeptical on DSD in general so that's playing a big part in my curiosity in this particular unit. don't worry, i won't be like bean in the 722 forum. I'll play nice :P
DSD in general or its application to live taping?
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Good question on rack mounting. Must leave 1 rack space above this Tas. for venting since it has a lot of vents on the top side and does generate a good amount of heat. I use a 4 RU rack and mounted the Tas. in the middle 2 spaces. This leaves 1 space above for venting and 1 space below for power conditioner or rack mountable preamp. The new Neve pair would fit nicely!
I found the Kaces III 4 RU rack by Ace Products Group in San Rafael, CA to be the perfect rack sizewise. It also slides out of a soft carry case for use at a show or on top of my big rack at home. The soft carry case with rack inside is small enough for carry-on luggage and kinda looks like a small roller suitcase.
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Yep Brian, I was mainly kidding about a DSD V3. I'd expect the hard-disk recorder V4 to come out before a DSD mod for a V3. As I said in the V3 vs 722 thread, a straight up mod to the existing V3's seems highly unlikely. But if DSD field recording ever takes off, it wouldn't be too hard to design a V3.5 that had DSD output. The bulk of the main design, including use of the PCM1804 A/D converter chip, lends itself to a DSD output version, without any substantial re-design. Nothing compared to a new design for a hard-disk recorder version of the Lunatec.
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damon - DSD in general. I think it's going to be a dead format within the next 10 years. maybe sooner. same with DVD-A. And i base this all because the idea of a physcal format (CD, DVD....discs basically) will be dead as well. Hell it's dying now. Pretty soon I think everybody is gong to have their music on some sort small HD player that they will be able to plug into anywhere or just listen in headphones. they will also be able to download music directly to it because of future advances in WiFi technology. of course it's going to years before this is the norm but just look at what is happening now with the ipod/iphoto/ngage/sidekick phenomena.
of course this is all in speculation at this point, but i beleive it will happen. and i'm aware that i completely disregarded the argument of how it sounds. I've heard great DSD recordings and I've heard bad. The bad ones have this harsh characteristic above 8k that really fatigues my ears. Researching into this i fouind that the 100kHz noise shaping of DSD plays a big part in this.
what about playback? do you have a system that will represent all of those frequencies, Do you have a player that can accurately read all of the information off of the DSD disc? will your speakers accurately reproduce the info? all questions and concerns one must answer before going full into DSD over DVD-A IMO.
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Given the fact that the seeming majority of Americans are perfectly happy with the sound quality of MP3's, I wouldn't be surprised if SACD and DVD-A died as consumer formats. But DSD recording might well continue and thrive as an intermediate technology, used in the recording process. Get rid of 1-inch analog tape, or whatever it is recording studios use, and record individual performers and instruments with DSD. Then use the DSD tracks to develop the completed music "album" that is distributed as you say.
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so how would you pitch the idea of converting to DSD recording to a recording studio?
can DSD be recorded to a hard drive making it easy to import into your favorite multitrack editor?
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so how would you pitch the idea of converting to DSD recording to a recording studio?
I wouldn't. Not enough DSD technologies available at this point from what I can tell to try to get studios to change over. But if companies like Tascam want to take the gamble that DSD will take off and want to start producing those technologies, it might happen. I'm just saying I'm not willing to sound the death knell for DSD just yet, even if it seems unlikely that it will take off as a consumer technology.
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Studios have and will continue to change over to DSD. With sonic Solutions you are recording to hard drive on the DAW. DSD already is the basis for SACD's which are being produced in the studio with DSD recorders.
I remember when most every commercially released CD was on DAT first. Not sure this is any different.
The fact that DSD walks all over PCM is enough of an indication to me where all this is headed.
BTW, my rack was $45 at Guitar Center and I just bought a 12 AH 12V from RS for $30. That should take care of my festival needs or long evenings with multiple bands.
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Studios have and will continue to change over to DSD.
what is your basis for this statement? how many studios? which ones?
With sonic Solutions you are recording to hard drive on the DAW.
It's my understanding that Sonic Solutions is a mastering DAW. I suppose studios are using it for multi-track recording and editing as well. I'd like to know which studios are doing this.
DSD already is the basis for SACD's which are being produced in the studio with DSD recorders.
I'm aware that DSD is the basis for SACD's. DVD-A's are outselling SACD's according to the latest research. some record labels are holding back on SACD distribution of some albums. Others are going forward with the process. Teh best SACD's i've heard were ones that were recorded directly to 2 channel DSD from the master 2 track analog reel. Essentially older recordings. Newer recordings that were tracked in digital PCM and then recorded to DSD don't sound as good to me. So score one there for DSD over PCM. However how many multitrack DSD recorders are out there? How many studios have them? There are high costs involved with the process of DSD recording ~> mastering. From what I've read, tons of studios are hesitant to make this leap.
I remember when most every commercially released CD was on DAT first. Not sure this is any different.
It's not. But i wouldn't say "most every". To this day 50% of albums are still recorded on ATR's. So to say that "most every" commercial released CD was on DAT is a huge stretch.
The fact that DSD walks all over PCM is enough of an indication to me where all this is headed.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see ;)
i'm really curious about the whole future of audio recording so discussions like this really intrigue me. I'm not rying to put any of you off or anything. I'm merely trying to increase my knowledge on the subject :)
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DVD-A's are mostly 5.1 surround recordings at 24/96 resolution. While the format is capable of 24/192 resolution for 2 channel recordings, Im not aware of many, if any, 2 channel titles. SACD is strictly 2 channel stereo as I understand. They are not really comparable at the commercial level since they basically serve two different purposes. I may have no clue on this but this is my understanding anyway. Surround sound for audio seems to be popular right now but true audiophiles prefer higher resolution stereo recordings.
I'm not sure how many studios really use DSD multitracking. It does exist and there are some SACD's from DSD multitracks. But most still mix down analog to DSD for SACD production. But most seem to have DSD in some form now.
Didn't mean to stretch 50% to most every but it's still a lot. I remember reading that it was higher but you can't trust everything you read.
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SACD is also intended for a multi-channel use scenario.
It's interesting that on some of the SACD's that I've heard that during the re-mastering process some of the egineers took liberty with the mix or mastering process and the results have indeed been worse than thier PCM counterparts... I've also heard some remastering (See Dark Side of the Moon SACD) that the PCM layer of the disc also has vast improvements to the the original due to the choices made by the egineers so it can be somewhat of a craps shoot.
It can be like CD in that regard in that we ARE limited to what the engineers decide to give us... after all they do make machines that add distortion in the high end to make a recording have "That CD Sound".
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Does DSD have various resolutions options like PCM or is it a fixed resolution? If fixed, then 5.1 DSD's/SACD's will require larger disc capacity like what's coming down the pike with HD video formats. Seems like the optical disc storage medium is here to stay for a while.
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I'm using a 75 watt power inverter that fits in the palm of my hand and plugs directly into the car socket on the battery. I also have a 4 pin xlr > car socket cable for using my old 12V 7.2 AH battery. I think the better grades only matter for high power inverters in the 200-300 watt range. The Tas. only draws 35 watts.
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>>Does DSD have various resolutions options like PCM or is it a fixed resolution<<
it's all 1 bit 2.8mhz
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I'm guessing the 12 AH battery will run the DV-RA1000 for 7-10 hours based on 90% efficiency of the inverter and that the battery says it will run TV's and VCR's for 20 hours, spotlights and fans 15 hours. With a preamp I'm hoping for 5 hours.
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I talked to Chris Jones a while back, he runs an Apogee Trak2 powered off an inverter. He told me if you use anything besides an Exeltech inverter, you risk damaging your equipment due to square wave issues and noise will enter the recording. He's been doing this awhile so I'd give weight to his comments if you plan on running off 12v.
peace, chris
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Thanks for the tip Chris! The smallest Exeltech inverter is 125 watt and costs $225. Looks like it protects against all possible conditions. AC power is typically very noisy anyway, so I'm not convinced the power supply in the Tas. won't deal with it anyway. Should I get a monster power conditioner for $75 instead? Anyone else have inverter experiences to share?
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has it arrived yet, m0k3..?
the suspense has got to be killing you...
cant wait to see it on saturday...
+t and have fun!
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nothing yet :gnashes teeth:
backatcha
i see you have changed your signature...
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oh how I love the man in brown!
its here, and its beautiful!
now I'm afraid to plug it in.
gotta go buy some discs,.. out.
another T in 12 for the new toy...
have fun today.
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Conradulations!!
I just got a chance to hear the Results from the Widespread Panic Tallahassee show Doug just recorded.
MSTC64g->HHbRadius80->DV-RA1000
Fanfreakintastic!
The mix has come such a long way since the last they were in that venue. Doug got a chance to setup during sound check so was able to aligng the mics vertically with one of the cabinet layer sweet-spots.
It's so real.
Not to mention he just added the meitner DCC2 to his playback system...
I can't even begin to describe what this does to even 20 year-old PCM masters. The one word that came to mind "effortless". On good systems if you take the time to settle into the recording close your eyes and focus you can eventually get yourself into a realtively 3-D space (at least in a frontal half of a sphere), with the DCC2 in place... no settling, no real effort on foucus, it's just THERE! Amazing! We listened to a recording that he made way back of the Farm where I live and I couldn't stop smiling, everything was so incredibly disctinct. There wwas a bird directly over my head, road noise from behind, the rustle of leaves in disctinct locales in all three dimensions. Then the fabled 9-03-85 Starlight show... I swear that there was a moment when Phil simply grabbed one of his bass strings, didn't pluck it or rub it, just moved it over the pickup and you could hear/feel the air in the room shift with it.
It's interesting because it acted like a sort of primer in my brain, when I got home I was able to get "closer" to that sensation in my system much more easily than in the past. It's like... OK you remember we were just there a few minutes ago.
It give such great hope about so many good recordings that have been made over the years. The limitations of PCM seem to be more inherint in playback than in encoding! With that being said... I can't wait to hear more recordings done in DSD!
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so what is in doug's home reference system? I've always wondered :)
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while everyone orgasms over the sound of this thing and upsampled 20 year old pcm recordings, it totally sucks for the rest of us mere mortals. you guys may want to start your own board or something.
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so what is in doug's home reference system? I've always wondered :)
no kidding... I've always wondered myself.
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so what is in doug's home reference system? I've always wondered :)
no kidding... I've always wondered myself.
count me among the curious...
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ok,..... burning in several hours now, playback only, while I 'cpiher on the manual for a spell,....
redbook playback,...... REALLY FAT!! mmmm mmm!
edit to add,....
Got my hiner sandpapered and turpentined again by Sarge, on seeing the newly arrived toy.
excellent work with the toy...
but take care of that hiney - make sure the boxes and extra paking stuff is safely stowed away before playing...
looking forward to seeing it in action on saturday.
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so what is in doug's home reference system? I've always wondered :)
The playback system integrates with the "Studio Side" of the listening room.
I'll just go over what I know of the "Playback Side" side...
Custom built Speaker system consisting of All Dynaudio Drivers and his own custom crossovers, wiring, and cabinets. (Tao Research his speaker line that he did for a little while.) This includes two main speakers with Dome Tweeters and Midrange (God it's silky) and I'd say about 10" Bass driver. Then on either side of those custom built Sub boxes also using his own internal components with Dynaudio Drivers ( I do not know all of the dirver models offhand). Subs are about 5' Tall with 4 Drivers a Piece I think. These are connected with Monster Speaker cable that is a tad thicker than a kitchen sink drain pipe. (I never asked the model) to Rowland Research Model 7 Monoblocks. Preamp is the new Mietner Designs DCC2. He's using the Apogee Big Ben as an external clock for this box. For computer listening he's running the word clock into his PC soundcard then the resulting signal gets routed back to the Big Ben before going into the Meitner. (There are a few folks that we worked with in the past that were using the Sony STR-DA9000ES reciever along with two or three Big Ben's piggybacked... evidently the effect is cumulative!) Sources include Denon DVD-9000, Sony XA-7ES, and a few Modified Panasonic SV-3800's. There have been a few SACD players to make it into the chain for listening tests so I'm not sure which one of those ended up staying. The DV-RA1000 pulls double duty but with the Meitner around he hadn't reconnected since the return from the Tally Show. The above comments about the room are true. He's on a transfomer from the power company that is only shared by one other customer... a church across the street so for much of the time no additional noise in the circuit. But for the occasion when they do turn on a heater he's got power fed by the Monster HTS-5000. For the listening yesterday he pulled out a couple of Foam Panels on tripods... one to put in front of the television, another for the fireplace. He made the comment that for serious listening we should have moved the coffee table from in front of us!!
Then there's the other half of the room ;D
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jesus.
tell me you brought a camera with you ;)
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while everyone orgasms over the sound of this thing and upsampled 20 year old pcm recordings, it totally sucks for the rest of us mere mortals. you guys may want to start your own board or something.
But you see this is the really exciting thing...
It's "doable" in much lesser systems!!! It IS a seriously logarithmic progression.
On a recording that was made on my rig 481->WarmModPlus UA-5 (X/Y 110deg 12') being played back on my comparatively wimpy system, Onkyo DV-S501->STR-DA3000ES->Tao Research MONITOR's with a pair of 12" passive subs utilizing an internal crossover... I can get close to the same effect! The difference is that the listening is NOT effortless. In order to get "there" you have to relax, close your eyes, turn off the lights, and really take the time to sink in and let your brain adjust. The size of the soundstage is not as expansive, I get most of the front half of the "sphere" with minor anomalies depending on how well I did setting up the mics or picking the spot in the venue, and the absolute detail is not as clear, a touch of spittle on the front end of claps and not quite as natural a decay. It's funny on the Panic recording I get a great open feel to the sphere with a little extra in the upper left quadrant like a small tube-like bubble where there is more stage sound. On the other system it is easier to tell that the center of the venue just happens to be a little to the right, the bubble on bubble effect is gone. On the big rig the individual claps are perfectly clear an you can place where they are on the risers or on the floor, the depth of field is just amazing. I caught myself getting a bit confused by my eyes telling me that I was in a 20X30 Room with a 10' Ceiling but my ears were listening to the sound echoing in the rafters of an arena. Letting youself experience both fully is a nifty trip in itself.
This technology will "Trickle Down" and become available to anyone that can hear and takes the time to set up a decent system, tune it, place it, and learn how to listen. It's already rediculous how well PCM recordings sound on a $700 Receiver!~ As we up the processing power of digital systems the type of upsampling that is occuring in the DCC2 will become more readily available and cheaper by far.
It now clear that the gear we are currently using (and have been) has the capacity to make recordings that we will be amazed by down the road as this begins to become more commonplace technology. I'm curious to see if the taping styles change as it does take place. I would guess that many tapes are judged prmarily on thier "clarity" and tonality and less on thier ability to create a soundstage. The thing is, it is that ability that makes audience recording so very special. It's hard with all of the variables of concert recording to get it right but the great thing is there are so many of us out there trying to make it happen that our odds are ever increased. When it's done just right it really is amazing what we can accomplish with all of this technology on which we all spend so much time, energy, and love.
{Later Edit} All of that being said however there really is no substitute for big Amps on Big Speakers when you're trying to reproduce Phil or Dave...
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All of that being said however there really is no substitute for big Amps on Big Speakers when you're trying to reproduce Phil or Dave...
the edit of the century. +t
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ok,..... burning in several hours now, playback only, while I 'cpiher on the manual for a spell,....
redbook playback,...... REALLY FAT!! mmmm mmm!
edit to add,....
Got my hiner sandpapered and turpentined again by Sarge, on seeing the newly arrived toy.
Quick immerse yourself in the sound like salve...!
+T
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Memorex and TDK discs have worked fine so far. And Memorex is not on the list!
Nice to hear other upsampling and DSD recording reviews.
I'm also liking my DSD->analog->HHb 16/44 recordings. Something distinctly different about them..which is nice for regular cd listening away from home.
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Funny to see this topic pop up here three years later...
;)
http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/viewthread.mv+thread=12543&message=12543
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Three years? Try 35!!! (see attached cropped, content-unedited screenshot)
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Funny to see this topic pop up here three years later...
;)
http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/viewthread.mv+thread=12543&message=12543
+t for the archive dig! thanks.
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dsd recording began 3 years or so ago, upsamplings pcm to dsd 6 months ago, and doing both in one consumer priced machine is now it seems.
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Funny to see this topic pop up here three years later...
;)
http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/viewthread.mv+thread=12543&message=12543
And from those threads you know that they had this technology even before this!
I guess the Titled Recorder is what sparked the interest. After I heard SACD and the Sony Receivers I've been telling anyone that would listen!
I'll keep doin' it too...
Hi-Rez for the masses! Whoo Hoo...
I just hope it keeps going.
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these days were so much easier! :o
(http://www.bookless.org/mt/dsf/archivo/image/sony.jpg)(http://alteseite.fumi.ch/images/first_sony.jpg)
go team fisher-price!
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god I feel like a dork with this thing. thankfully I have some lead time with it before I need to use it.
The manual leaves room for liberal interpretation on some issues. With that thought,..
Formatting question,...
I inserted a new disc and chose dsd mode, and went thru the intital formatting stage of the pop-up windows. I expected this to take 20 to 30 min.. So, to my surprise, in just a very few minutes the process ends, and it appears that I'm ready to record.
Did I do this correctly, or do I need to manually format thru the menu windows?
oh for the love of god, give me a real knob that I can twist to control gain! drop down menus :-X
I sat there and fidgeted around trying to control the input gain, with no success, and then I realized that I was in bypass mode.
All sorts of new ways for me to screw up a recording, (as if I needed anymore?) ::)
you'll get it...
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You obviously broke it. :P
That may be my jealousy talking though...
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I'm trying another burn right now, after a format. I'm going to commit this disc, and likely others, to the fancy-use coaster pile, (for when the guests come over).
man i remember when i had my first cd burner drive - i made more coaster than i could count. the software was beta, the drivers were beta, my 'puter was win95... argh!
best of luck to you - see ya tomorrow (speaking of which - are you running a stand? are you using the big boys or the little guys..? my heb's arrived today, and i would love to try the mini jecklin. i could always run hrtf. but it sounds like having a backup tape might not be that bad of an idea :P)...
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supa-stealth mode isn't necessary, but its always good practice.
;D ;D
i think i have found my new sig (now that the st0nes have announced, i need a new one)...
thanks for the info - i will see you tomorrow. dont stay up too late figuring out how to use your new toy :P
edit: as for set times - two two hour sets..?
two sets, and a two hour tape will usually do
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any word back from jaime or mike regarding the V3.5 DSD mod or the highly coveted V4?
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Would the fact that I'm using a Fuji disc be that big of a difference?
looks like it. I'd stick with the recomended discs personally. with new gear....i'm all about following the rules until i figure out all of the tricks ;)
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best of luck! we expect a full report ;D
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good luck Moke!!!!!
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good luck Moke!!!!!
you're next counselor
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stunning!
More to report tomorrow, after some speaker playback, but thru the headphones,...... stunning!
4060's j-disc mini baffle, on stage dfc 3' from centered setar, 5' from r&l hand-drummers -> mma6000 -> V3, analog out -> dsd
wonderful performance, and from the bit that i heard, that dsd recorder is the real deal...
here are a few pics i snapped - if you look carefully, you will see m0k3's j-disc mini baffle rig...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/macdaddy_47/2005-05-14/IMG_0401.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/macdaddy_47/2005-05-14/IMG_0402.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/macdaddy_47/2005-05-14/IMG_0403.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/macdaddy_47/2005-05-14/IMG_0404.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/macdaddy_47/2005-05-14/IMG_0405.jpg)
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so what happened with the media formatting issues?
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nice!
did you figure out how to dither down and burn redbook cd's yet..?
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so the only option, if you want to burn copies of your recordings with that thing, is to go out via the r/l analog RCAs' and then into a DAT, cassette deck or stand alone burner..? that kind of blows, although, you say the analog output is something special, so maybe sending that to a dat wouldnt be the end of the world, just a pain in the a$$...
does that thing read/write dual-layer discs, or do you have to stick to the 4gig discs..?
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I tried very briefly yesterday, and patched out of the coaxial out, but got no signal downstream. Then Sarge started into barking commands, and I abandoned the effort.
answer, nothing yet. I don't think its possible from dsd.
see attached manual page that covers dithering.
DONE!
Page 15, my brain hurts, and I'm wiping the drool off my chin. Great posts, I love this place, now I need to scrape up some cash for one of these. I was talking to Doug about the unit today while placing an order for other toys, DAMNIT, now I need to come up with another 1000+. :P
+t's for all of you, tons of great information and feedback! :-*
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so i hope you are practicing with rewriteable discs, rather than making a stack of coasters as you figure it all out :P
the unit has no harddrive, correct..? so thre is no way it can burn cd's on the fly, it really just burns discs that can be read by that type of machine, or possibly, as data on a computer drive..?
i should have snapped a pic of that thing in action on saturday - next time, for sure ;)
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As long as its handled properly in the transition from analog back to digital, it'll sound fantastic.
how are you proposing to do that..?
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gotcha...
you can put me down for one of those Tas.700 copies :D
so how do you back up your recordings? is there a way to copy the dsd disc(s) you recorded, an exact clone-type copy, so that you have a backup..? that is kind of a must for all recordists(sic), right..? what about burning the info you recorded somewhere, but putting it on a properly formatted disc..?
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I'm hoping for a portable tas. dsd unit with sdif-3 outputs.
me, too - one that is the size of the pda/sbm1 combo...
does that thing have analog ins..? or do you have to use an adc infront of it> would it sound like a$$ to have the mic analog go in and let the unit up it to dsd on the spot..?
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what kind of quality do you think the gain mode will have..? do you think you are better off going with an external pre and/or adc..?
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I wish that I'd gotten about one foot away from the setar, as the drums are loud at times. geeting self critical here, and thinking out loud.
I'm doing the same thing with my tape from last night ;D
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I wish that I'd gotten about one foot away from the setar, as the drums are loud at times. geeting self critical here, and thinking out loud.
I'm doing the same thing with my tape from last night ;D
Which 406x mics did you end up picking up? I was just curious how they were working out for you. :)
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the 4061's and the dpa preamp the mma6000... finally used them for the 1st time yesterday, I stealthed a bassoon quartet in the afternoon and then did a band last night... check the jdisc thread in the mic section :)
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just some points, I got the unit on Sat. The DSD discs can be copied and are playable on the unit if a pc copies them as an image....or a direct clone of this disc. This will allow us to host the image files online for the future. While the cost of DSD->PCM decimation now is $3000 I'm guessing that just like DVD-A burning it'll be in the $200 range within a year, so if we start uploading the DSD files to archive.org for trade-approved bands we can have those files online for the future.
Interesting point two: The dvd drive in the unit is a standard IDE drive with an ATA ribbon cable and a standard PC power supply cable, I'm going to try and format a 20gig hard drive in the unit and see if I can get many hours recording capability.
more to follow,
peace, chris
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also from what I've read DSD has 12db overhead above 0db full scale, unlike PCM. So overs are more like analog overs than digital (PCM) ones.
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Let the modding begin!! :D
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also, if the dvd drive is dual layer capable (maybe with a firmware flash or drive swap) more possibilities 8.5 gigs of DSD glory on one disc is nice =)
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The DSD discs can be copied and are playable on the unit if a pc copies them as an image....or a direct clone of this disc.
terrific news...
what dvd burning software did you use..? os..? tia.
Interesting point two: The dvd drive in the unit is a standard IDE drive with an ATA ribbon cable and a standard PC power supply cable, I'm going to try and format a 20gig hard drive in the unit and see if I can get many hours recording capability.
please keep us up to date...
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also, if the dvd drive is dual layer capable (maybe with a firmware flash or drive swap) more possibilities 8.5 gigs of DSD glory on one disc is nice =)
that is what i was thinking - i know that sacd can have longer run times...
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The DSD discs can be copied and are playable on the unit if a pc copies them as an image....or a direct clone of this disc.
terrific news...
what dvd burning software did you use..? os..? tia.
Interesting point two: The dvd drive in the unit is a standard IDE drive with an ATA ribbon cable and a standard PC power supply cable, I'm going to try and format a 20gig hard drive in the unit and see if I can get many hours recording capability.
please keep us up to date...
I tried nero and dvddecrypter, both worked in image mode. If you use the UDF file system we can probably just share the DSDIFF files and share but I have not tried that yet. Peace, chris
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also, if the dvd drive is dual layer capable (maybe with a firmware flash or drive swap) more possibilities 8.5 gigs of DSD glory on one disc is nice =)
that is what i was thinking - i know that sacd can have longer run times...
SACDs can store more because of dual-layer AND FLAC like lossless compression, the algorithim is SUPER expensive though and limited to just SACD (that's how they get 6 channels of DSD for one hour on a disc). But a dual layer disc would be over 3 hours.....good enough for me =)
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honestly, it feels really cool to be playing with this and it surprises me how many of us already have a machine that has been out less than a month!!! I don't think this many tapers ran DAT in it's first month....but that was before my time......well I was in middle school, but not taping yet!
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Interesting point two: The dvd drive in the unit is a standard IDE drive with an ATA ribbon cable and a standard PC power supply cable, I'm going to try and format a 20gig hard drive in the unit and see if I can get many hours recording capability.
more to follow,
peace, chris
Now things are getting REALLY interesting....
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just some points, I got the unit on Sat. The DSD discs can be copied and are playable on the unit if a pc copies them as an image....or a direct clone of this disc. This will allow us to host the image files online for the future. While the cost of DSD->PCM decimation now is $3000 I'm guessing that just like DVD-A burning it'll be in the $200 range within a year, so if we start uploading the DSD files to archive.org for trade-approved bands we can have those files online for the future.
Interesting point two: The dvd drive in the unit is a standard IDE drive with an ATA ribbon cable and a standard PC power supply cable, I'm going to try and format a 20gig hard drive in the unit and see if I can get many hours recording capability.
more to follow,
peace, chris
HD mod DV-RA1000 :P
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I got the first DAT sold in the US when it first came out and it was portable! Casio DA7. It feels like that all over again.
I wouldn't pay money for DSD> digital> PCM conversion. DSD> analog> PCM (via anything that dithers 24 bit AD to 16 bit) works great.
I have found the OVER lights to be more sensitive than on other digital recorders. This is true because it will read OVER when 0dB is hit for longer than 3 samples which isn't much at 1 bit. Certainly no noticeable distortion.
It will be interesting if recordings can be written "in real time" to an external usb hard drive. Also wondering how playback would work from the HD to this unit. I'm guessing the usb is only for pulling data from disc to HD but not for sending.
These are going to be very large files to download or torrent when we start hosting the file images.
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There is an inexpensive DSD->PCM converter IC chip that is used in low-end SACD players prior to A/D. I posted on the oade board hoping Doug will bite. It would cost under $15 in parts for the chip and a spdif signal encoder, so we could have a box that had two bnc DSD inputs and a spdif coax out. If doug won't do it I might try and make it myself.
peace, chris
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FWIW After going through a few transfers and dithering situations Doug and I agreed that the Analog transfer to the Modified FR-2 for the 14/44.1 discs was really the way to go.
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I've got 3 recordings this weekend, 2 of which are acoustic, and one pa supported.
~Friday, a large scale orchestra doing broadway hits ( :-X ) (pa supported, with quality mics and sbd)
~Saturday, an acoustic rachmaninoff piano and organ concerto played live to tape, with no audience. And perhaps multiple takes.
~Sunday, same performance of rach., live to audience and tape, and then a requiem choir in the second set, which I'm so totally excited about, that I damn near wet my pants!!. Dark moody scary baroque requiem choir, with organ and small orchestra... put the fear of god into you kind of stuff. All acoustic, and to high resolution. boinnngggg!
I just listened to a Latin-Folk ensemble playing somewhere outside in California.
I was cruising a dark and deserted section of the southern end of the NJ Parkway early this quiet A.M.
The recording was full, accurate and cranked to help the coffee wake me up.
In the middle of one of their acoustic songs, a freight train ran through nearby the recording venue.
Talk about realism !
I sh*t my pants. :P
I thought that you should know that.
So how's the A/D and pre-amps in the Tascam ?
Is it as good as a V-3 ?
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FWIW After going through a few transfers and dithering situations Doug and I agreed that the Analog transfer to the Modified FR-2 for the 14/44.1 discs was really the way to go.
But that's probably since no current solution is availible for DSD->PCM direct, once a solution is found there will be no beneift going through two A/D conversions. I want a box to decimate 1bit DSD @ 2mhz to 24bit PCM @ 88.2. That way the 24/88.2 can be used in DVD Video discs and can be downsampled to 44.1 for CD after dynamic range compression, EQ, whatever.
peace, chris
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I've got 3 recordings this weekend, 2 of which are acoustic, and one pa supported.
~Friday, a large scale orchestra doing broadway hits ( :-X ) (pa supported, with quality mics and sbd)
~Saturday, an acoustic rachmaninoff piano and organ concerto played live to tape, with no audience. And perhaps multiple takes.
~Sunday, same performance of rach., live to audience and tape, and then a requiem choir in the second set, which I'm so totally excited about, that I damn near wet my pants!!. Dark moody scary baroque requiem choir, with organ and small orchestra... put the fear of god into you kind of stuff. All acoustic, and to high resolution. boinnngggg!
I just listened to a Latin-Folk ensemble playing somewhere outside in California.
I was cruising a dark and deserted section of the southern end of the NJ Parkway early this quiet A.M.
The recording was full, accurate and cranked to help the coffee wake me up.
In the middle of one of their acoustic songs, a freight train ran through nearby the recording venue.
Talk about realism !
I sh*t my pants. :P
I thought that you should know that.
So how's the A/D and pre-amps in the Tascam ?
Is it as good as a V-3 ?
There is no pre-amp in the tascam, so you must run your own pre-amp. The A/D converter is the same as in the V3, but offers a direct or bypass mode that allows you to feed the chip right from your pre-amp. Depending on the quality of your preamp the Tascam offers the possibility of a better signal to the A/D than the V3 does.
peace, chris
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Moke,
How's the Sarge' like the sound of DSD so far? Any comments?
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she noticed, and raised her eyebrows, but remainded stand-offish in her relationship with the beast.
She really noticed the difference in sound with sacd playback of a couple of studio discs though, (not through this unit).
actually she rather likes the broadway hits thing, so fridays gig might sell her ;)
A little wining and dining, then a concert,.....
yeah,.. right,...
Sarge, grab the cable bag, and the green mic stand bag, we're getting there an hour and a half early,...... again.
lmao
the life of a tapers wife ;D
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FWIW After going through a few transfers and dithering situations Doug and I agreed that the Analog transfer to the Modified FR-2 for the 14/44.1 discs was really the way to go.
But that's probably since no current solution is availible for DSD->PCM direct, once a solution is found there will be no beneift going through two A/D conversions. I want a box to decimate 1bit DSD @ 2mhz to 24bit PCM @ 88.2. That way the 24/88.2 can be used in DVD Video discs and can be downsampled to 44.1 for CD after dynamic range compression, EQ, whatever.
peace, chris
Whoops forgot to detail that... was in comparison to capture at 24/96 then Dithered/Resampled using Samplitude. So I was commenting that the analog transfer directly to the Bit Depth/Sample Rate of chioce was preferable.
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DSD> analog> PCM (via anything that dithers 24 bit AD to 16 bit) works great.
I'm listening to the finished redbook burn, and it sounds really sweet! (save for the drums being strong in the mix)
DSD analog feed->PCM-M1 48k ~then~ Tas.DA20mkII 48k dat master -> Tas700 cdr audio burner cdr master
The cdr version sounds "compressed" which gives it more gritty punch than the dsd(?), but not the purity.
just out of curiosity.....why didn't you just go DSD(analog out) > Tascam 700 ? do you think the AD is better in the DA20mkII than the 700?
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Interesting point two: The dvd drive in the unit is a standard IDE drive with an ATA ribbon cable and a standard PC power supply cable, I'm going to try and format a 20gig hard drive in the unit and see if I can get many hours recording capability.
more to follow,
peace, chris
From the DV-RA1000 "Press Release" http://www.tascam.com/Press/Releases/dvra1000.html
Advanced features like a USB 2.0 connector, RS-232 serial control :-*
How about an external HD? External HD's are already constructed to be portable, the USB stream should be fast enough, no? ???
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I've got 3 recordings this weekend, 2 of which are acoustic, and one pa supported.
~Friday, a large scale orchestra doing broadway hits ( :-X ) (pa supported, with quality mics and sbd)
~Saturday, an acoustic rachmaninoff piano and organ concerto played live to tape, with no audience. And perhaps multiple takes.
~Sunday, same performance of rach., live to audience and tape, and then a requiem choir in the second set, which I'm so totally excited about, that I damn near wet my pants!!. Dark moody scary baroque requiem choir, with organ and small orchestra... put the fear of god into you kind of stuff. All acoustic, and to high resolution. boinnngggg!
I just listened to a Latin-Folk ensemble playing somewhere outside in California.
I was cruising a dark and deserted section of the southern end of the NJ Parkway early this quiet A.M.
The recording was full, accurate and cranked to help the coffee wake me up.
In the middle of one of their acoustic songs, a freight train ran through nearby the recording venue.
Talk about realism !
I sh*t my pants. :P
I thought that you should know that.
So how's the A/D and pre-amps in the Tascam ?
Is it as good as a V-3 ?
There is no pre-amp in the tascam, so you must run your own pre-amp. The A/D converter is the same as in the V3, but offers a direct or bypass mode that allows you to feed the chip right from your pre-amp. Depending on the quality of your preamp the Tascam offers the possibility of a better signal to the A/D than the V3 does.
peace, chris
did you ever hear from Hamptone about the delivery time estimates for your pre?
two weeks from today =)
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Interesting point two: The dvd drive in the unit is a standard IDE drive with an ATA ribbon cable and a standard PC power supply cable, I'm going to try and format a 20gig hard drive in the unit and see if I can get many hours recording capability.
more to follow,
peace, chris
From the DV-RA1000 "Press Release" http://www.tascam.com/Press/Releases/dvra1000.html
Advanced features like a USB 2.0 connector, RS-232 serial control :-*
How about an external HD? External HD's are already constructed to be portable, the USB stream should be fast enough, no? ???
the USB controller in the unit would have to be a host controller not a standard peripherial controller, hence why you can just plug in a usb drive to digital cameras, nomads, etc. I doubt it is, but I have several USB2.0 harddrives to test it with.
BTW: incase anyone needs cheap storage Staples is running 2 regional specials - either a maxtor 200gb drive for $70.00 or a maxtor 250gb for $100- depending on your region.
peace, chris
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glad to hear that its not some long drawn out anticipating wait, though two weeks would kill me.
You've got me considering going that route. A friend of mine suggested hamptone at the end of last season, and he had glowing reviews.
I've got a question for you in private pm.
sending,....
moke, where are you located, some time we should meet up where ever you do your classical recordings link our DSD wordclocks together and run 4-channel DSD with your DPAs and my SP audio AKG =) them would be some sweet unamplified multichannel tunes
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Interesting point two: The dvd drive in the unit is a standard IDE drive with an ATA ribbon cable and a standard PC power supply cable, I'm going to try and format a 20gig hard drive in the unit and see if I can get many hours recording capability.
more to follow,
peace, chris
From the DV-RA1000 "Press Release" http://www.tascam.com/Press/Releases/dvra1000.html
Advanced features like a USB 2.0 connector, RS-232 serial control :-*
How about an external HD? External HD's are already constructed to be portable, the USB stream should be fast enough, no? ???
the USB controller in the unit would have to be a host controller not a standard peripherial controller, hence why you can just plug in a usb drive to digital cameras, nomads, etc. I doubt it is, but I have several USB2.0 harddrives to test it with.
BTW: incase anyone needs cheap storage Staples is running 2 regional specials - either a maxtor 200gb drive for $70.00 or a maxtor 250gb for $100- depending on your region.
peace, chris
How do you go about figuring out if it's a host controller or a standard peripherial controller? Just thought I'd throw it out, I don't know enough about how all that works, if it did that'd be awsome. ::shrugs:: :)
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I'm currently adding dsd tracks to my dsd clones and am getting ready to start playing around with the parametric EQ and compression. This is a nice feature!
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I'm currently adding dsd tracks to my dsd clones and am getting ready to start playing around with the parametric EQ and compression. This is a nice feature!
nicely done.
how, exactly are doing this..?
(
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These motha looks bad ass ...Dam how long is gonna be before I am living on the street to support this habit..I'm gonna snag one of these bad boys ;D :P
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These motha looks bad ass ...Dam how long is gonna be before I am living on the street to support this habit..I'm gonna snag one of these bad boys ;D :P
See, that's the problem, if you're living on the street you'd have to bum power... catch 22 I guess there is always the battery/power inverter. ;)
I would be thoroughly impressed to see a street person with one of there in their cart. Now that would be dedication!
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Oops, effects only work in pcm modes, not dsd.
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AAAACCCCHHHH!!!!
Last nights recording came out great. I did set one as one project, and set two as another project on the same disc.
We, the sound engineer and tech and myself, listened to the second set last night after the concert. I ejected the disc, (which installs the udfmi file info), packed my bags and came home.
Now I listen to playback, and there is no project 2 listed, and when asked, the machine wants to create another project 2, which has me thinking that the original #2, from last night has mysteriously disappeared. Because the steps to load another project reveal that there is no 2nd project to load.
Any computer heads know what might have happened?
I've poured over the manual in regards to this, and it surely seems that project2 from last night is lost.
help?
When you're done recording a session, does the unit have to "finalize" the disc? It's just a stab, but perhaps you ejected the disc before you closed the session? If you were listening to the project 2 it must have been recorded to the disc, I doubt it's lost, but I'm not sure how you'd go about retrieving it. :(
If I burn a DVD-r data disc on my pc I can A) finalize the disc or B) leave the session open so that I can add more files later, that's why I'm guessing you're just missing the info that lets the machine know that session #2 is closed.
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Sounds like it may be important to update the UDFMI file by ejecting the disc before listening to it. Or, you may have experienced some kind of power interuption before ejecting the disc. In the event of a power interuption, there is a procedure to update the UDFMI manually by not ejecting the disc. This could help restore the missing 2nd project. Good luck.
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I've got a japanese taiko drummers and flute concert on friday night, so we should be able to test for how low it go.
hmmm.... where is this taking place..?
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Sounds like it may be important to update the UDFMI file by ejecting the disc before listening to it. Or, you may have experienced some kind of power interuption before ejecting the disc. In the event of a power interuption, there is a procedure to update the UDFMI manually by not ejecting the disc. This could help restore the missing 2nd project. Good luck.
the odd thing is, Matt,... That I did eject the disc when I closed the case on the deck.
I wonder though,.... If, when I was regathering a 50' pair of cables, and I walked away from the deck while the foh man was listening. I wondder if he turned off the deck somehow? I saw him moving around between tracks,... hmmm?
oh well,... I've moved on, and gotten over that train wreck, and pulled two gooders this weekend. So I'm feeling more confident with this unit out in the field.
I also got the Gator Rack bag for the machine, and its a nice bit of protection! It had total pos screw mount rails that I quickly drilled out and eliminated and replaced with pair of functional mount rails.
I've got a japanese taiko drummers and flute concert on friday night, so we should be able to test for how low it go.
2 quick ?s moke may be ordering myself this toy very soon:
The Gator Rack bag rails were crap? If that's the one, what rail did you use to swap it out?
Have you had to run on a battery yet in the field, or has a/c always been available?
I was considering an Optima Gel cell battery, but I have to crunch some numbers to make sure it'll work...
12 Volt
Cranking Amps at 32F: 625; Cold Cranking Amps at 0F: 500
Reserce Capacity: 70; Capacity (C/20 Rate): 41
SAE Automotive Terminals
The Optima Yellow Top battery is loaded with compact power for small domestics and imports. The Spiralcell Technology means you get twice life of standard batteries. You can store it for long periods and it has incredible resistance to vibration,heat and cold. And the sealed cells allow mounting in almost any position without spilling or damaging your car.
Part No.: D51-OY
Weight: 26.0 LB
Price: $139.99
http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/product_info/commercial/deep_cycle.html
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No, I haven't run it on dc yet.
My taping anymore is scheduled well in advance, and its all out in the open. AC power isn't generally a problem, but I am going to rig with the exeltech invertor for convenience.
Gator Rails,....
They are pop riveted in, and cheap bent metal that appears to be hand drilled and tapped. The holes are free form and wandering. And I could not make 4 holes match that units mount holes(4), in any possbile combo. The closest I got was three hole aligned, and one screw that wasn't happy of those three.
So I drilled out the pop rivets, and replaced it with oak 1x2 rails.
I had the piece of oak 1x2 in the garage. And a piece of kneeling foam from Home Depot that i cut into squares of about 2" (free-handed it with a steak knife). I put that soft foam below the legs of the unit, in its proper position on the pads, and drilled pilot holes for wood screws.
Really a piece of cake to fix that little issue.
The price was $65 at Sweetwater, no shipping, and its worth it just for the canvas bag,.... that part of the package is nicely built, as is the box itself. Its just those cheesy rails that are lame.
Overall, a nice box, and a really nice price!
edit, because my fingers are 'tards tonight.
awsome feedback thanks! :D +t
bookmarked the exeltech inverter, now to do a little more research on battery capacity etc...
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Now I listen to playback, and there is no project 2 listed, and when asked, the machine wants to create another project 2, which has me thinking that the original #2, from last night has mysteriously disappeared. Because the steps to load another project reveal that there is no 2nd project to load.
Any computer heads know what might have happened?
I've poured over the manual in regards to this, and it surely seems that project2 from last night is lost.
help?
m0k3, did you ever get this problem resolved?
My Tascam is on the way...
Now to get the other items to make it mobile... :P
edit: content
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Nope,... its gone, or at least not retrievable by me. Eventually, when more computer savvy people get these units, there is probably hope for extraction by other means, computer programs, etc. We were listening to the recording after the concert, so it was burned to the disc. Its likely that no file management info was written to the disc though, so there is no way to read it, so the machine does not recognize any second project.
Its not the greatest loss of all time, and I learned a bunch in the process.
+T for the new toy!!
As far as I've gathered you can prepare a disc to record in 2 manners, either format it so that it's recordable, but the time code is applied on-the-fly, or format the disc including the time code (takes aprox 30 mins?). I might not be using the correct terminology, or having my facts wrong, but for future reference which "format"/disc preparation process have you used? I was told that there is no need to "finalize" a disc, so me earlier post has no relevance at all.
I have to figure out the dimensions still but I'm probably going with the Gorilla bag too, I'll tackle the shabby rail system when I get it. You mentioned using an Exeltech inverter, I'm probably ordering that tomorrow, but they are looking to see if they can get the "rack mount" bracket for it.
I'm still trying to numbers crunch and find out which capacity battery I'll need, I want the smallest (size), but something that's still slightly overkill.
Check this out, with the Exeltech rack plate:
(http://www.exeltech.com/ex_root/ex_products/ex_inverters/ex_xp/xp125_19_1_final.jpg)
I think there might be enough room to cut out a hole large enough for the V3, all that would be needed then would be to make up a cable for a battery and all the rest would be in the gear bag. I might need to find someone with a welder. :)
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I am mounting the inverter/power strip to the "inside top" of the 5u rollx rack. Then I haven't figured out how I'm mounting the big lead yet but the gist of it is, is to use it to insulate the tube pre and the DV-RA from any possible stray RF out of the inverter. I don't think it'll require a car battery but a 27aH SLA should be overkill. I'm wondering how long it'll run an a 14aH 12V.....hmmm... I hate math or I'd have already done the calculations. I'm also waiting on my inverter to arrive so I can see what the heck the connector on the input is....it looks really odd in the pics and I don't know if it includes the mating piece or not....oh the joys of being an early adopter.....
peace, chris
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the problem with that rack mount is that,... it'll put your power cable to the front of the unit..
I was considering configuring a mount to screw the exeltech unit into the area above the recorder, with the power connection facing out of the rear of the bag.
Maybe configure a rear set of mount rails, as well as the front set, and mount the invertor backwards, facing the rear of the recorder?
I'll likely do something similar.
You can always screw/bolt and rivet a tray for the V3, rather than weld. You can get aluminum aircraft rivets for pretty cheap, and hammer them down (much better than pop-rivets!).
I can't find the picture now, but it looked as if the other end of the Exeltech was a mirror image of the front (obviously w/out the plug). I figured I might mount it backwards, use some gnarled headed screws (like the oversized ones used on the back of a pc case) to mount it so that it can be removed easily, either that or feed the power cable back in through a gromet. The rear mounting sounds like that might be a possibility also. I wonder if a PC fan would be a good idea or not? My concern might be inherent noise, I'm sure that can be tested, I have no idea if the unit even gets warm yet. :P
Good point on the tray, If I'm going through that much trouble I might as well fabricate my own faceplate and have it powder coated. I'll probably end up doing something similar to that "V3 rack bag" I threw together. I have some 1/4" aluminum plate, I might end up making my own if the thing costs over $30.
For V3 > DVRA what interconnects are you using?
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exeltech xp125 mount
Ahh,... gotcha!
If the battery size works out to be as large as car size,... I'll run the exeltech and battery in a marine battery box on some sort of cart, at least to get it onto location. The recorder and case are heavy enough, thank you very much!
I hate math as well, so,... I'm sort of hoping for one of my heroes to step in with some electrical use 'cipherin for us.
I'll work on a nice coherent HELP! post in the Remote Power section. I'm thinking the smaller red-top Optima battery might suffice, but if I can get away with smaller and have room to play I'd prefer that. (obviously)
I couldn't find a good formula anywhere online, I'm not done looking. These Solar/Alternative power sites have a ton of information, hopefully I'll know what the heck they're talking about.
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it's something like take the known values dv-ra consumption = 120v at 35watts then figure out how many amps that is. from those numbers add some pixie dust or something to relate it to 12v and x number of amps compensated for 87% efficency (or something near that).....I'll try and have it figured out by end of day.
peace, chris
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ok, I did some quick math:
Part 1:
Watts=Amps x Volts
35w=xAmps x 120 Volts
35w/120 Volts = .292 amps
.292 amps x 1.15 for 85% efficiency = .335 amps @120 volts
____________________________________
Part 2:
12v27Ah battery =120v2.7Ah battery
_____________________________________
Part 3:
2.7Ah/.335amps=8.05 hours from the 12v27Ah battery, efficency loss already included from inversion.
_____________________________________
Part 4:
Moral of the story: even the old ecocharge 12v7Ah batts for the AD1K will run this thing for 2 hours.
peace, chris
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Once again, if anyone needs a 12V 12Ah, I have one you can take off my hands! :)
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Awsome! Thanks Chris!
+t
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Just in case anyone doesn't want to spend the big bucks on a power inverter, my palm size 75 watt inverter ($25) appears to work perfectly, $30. I ran the Tas. for 2 hours off my 12AH ($30) battery and it still registered full. Very happy so far with this low cost DC option.
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have you already purchased the Exeltech unit yet?
this place had the best price in a frooogle search, by a considerable amount.. : http://www.affordable-solar.com/365.html
That's who I'm waiting on a call back from, they were checking to see if they could get that rack bracket from their supplier. ;D
That is the best deal by far.
Even after shipping from NM to OH it was cheaper than an east coast retailer ($215.00+s&h)
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have you already purchased the Exeltech unit yet?
this place had the best price in a frooogle search, by a considerable amount.. : http://www.affordable-solar.com/365.html
I checked my messages when I got home, Mark from Affordable Solar said that they can get the rack face-plate and that it's $36. Calling to order...
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I'm gonna make mine outta diamond plate :P
blang blang! :P
"pimp my rig"
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have you already purchased the Exeltech unit yet?
this place had the best price in a frooogle search, by a considerable amount.. : http://www.affordable-solar.com/365.html
I checked my messages when I got home, Mark from Affordable Solar said that they can get the rack face-plate and that it's $36. Calling to order...
As of tomorrow, it will have been a week since I ordered the exeltech through these guys, and I still haven't gotten shipping confirmation, even after calling twice.
It might be worth kicking down the extra $$ elsewhere.
I saved my search results:
Alternative Energy Store: 1-877-878-4060
http://shop.altenergystore.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=EXEXP125%2D12
Price: $209.00 S/H:aprox $15 UPS ground
Affordable Solar: 1-800-810-9939
http://www.affordable-solar.com/365.html
Price: $195.00 S/H: aprox $10-$12 UPS ground
I haven't recieved any confirmation either, I placed my order Tuesday...
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email of this morning to affordable solar.com
Greetings,
I placed an order last week, on friday. I was told by the sales associate that because of the holiday weekend, that the package wouldn't be shipping until the following tuesday.
Its friday a week later, I've called twice trying to finish this sale, and get my purchased part, and still no confirmation of purchase or shipping.
Why can't this part be shipped?
Are you not interested in my business?
I really need this part. At this point, I need it much quicker than it appears that your company is capable of.
Would you rather that I contacted my credit card company and canceled the order? Maybe place it with one of your competitors?
I'm really disillusioned and disappointed at this point in my choice of doing business with this company.
Please get me my part, as I've already wasted valuable time waiting for your company to proceed with the purchase.
I can't express my disappontment with this company enough.
Mike French
[/size]
Damn, I didn't have a chance to call them today to inquire about my order, I still don't have a confirmation e-mail. Did you get any response?
:banging head:
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I reccommend "Northern Arizona Wind & Sun"
quick shipping $191.25 for the unit and $8.50 for shipping for a total of $199.75
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inverter finally in hand.
fwiw,... it came equipped with a cigarette lighter plug end.
DV-RA and Gator Bag in hand, inverter (maybe?) and battery/charger in transit.
OK SCREW Affordable Solar, phuckers said it isn't expected to ship until July 15th. :angry3:
Exeltech is on backorder, http://www.wind-sun.com has/had 3 in stock, looks like you bought my inverter moke. :P
If there's still room in that rack mount face, to make sure I don't run the SLA dead:
Features scrolling 'Hi' warning if voltage reaches 16 V and scrolling 'Lo' warning if voltage reaches 10 V. Adjustable low 'gauge flashing warning' can be set by user where desired.
(http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/norm/cby-a200e060n_w_m.jpg)
I ordered one in green.
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inverter finally in hand.
fwiw,... it came equipped with a cigarette lighter plug end.
DV-RA and Gator Bag in hand, inverter (maybe?) and battery/charger in transit.
OK SCREW Affordable Solar, phuckers said it isn't expected to ship until July 15th. :angry3:
Exeltech is on backorder, http://www.wind-sun.com has/had 3 in stock, looks like you bought my inverter moke. :P
The saga continues, Arizona Wind & Sun left a message today letting me know their "inventory was off" and that they don't have any in stock. :banging head:
On to the next shitty online merchant...
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D'oh!! contact the manufacturer and tell them, and see if they'll help you out.
Where did you order the meter?
+ for the troubles
Turns out they have 1, it's was an open box and has a "scratch". He said to call him back tomorrow and that he could offer me a discounted rate. Becides the inventory being off, they did contact me the next day to resolve the problem, offered expedited shipping at no extra cost (because he knew I wanted it sooner than later) unlike Affordable Solar. Affordable called me today (a week later) to let me know that they could not fullfill the order I had placed last week. Not that it matters, once they get caught up, I'll probably recieve confirmation of me cancelling my order on Monday.
Exeltech says 4-5 weeks backorder, no dice there. Hopefully AZ Wind & Sun doesn't lose that inverter before the morning.
The meter is from Summit Racing, I'm actually going to pick it up at Summit on Friday. Get this, they had 3 (visable check) in stock, there was another voltage gauge that was about $20 more, the display is slightly better looking, but it doesn't have the low voltage warning feature as far as I know and... it's on backorder (estimated June 20th).
Green: CYB-A000E160N
Amber (like the picture above) CYB-A000E060N
http://www.summitracing.com/
Summit does free shipping but charges a $8.95 handling fee, if you want me to pick one up for you, it's not a problem. It's $39.95 + tax (7%-8%) I'm not sure how much it is in Tallmadge. I'm not sure if they charge tax for out-of-state orders, but it's likely they do. I think they have a store in Sparks NV also, they might have one in stock too.
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that meter is going to be key,... to making sure that the AUDIBLE low voltage alarm on the inverter doesn't mess up any intimate occasions ;)
Let me see if I can find anything around here. I have a ton of auto boutiques and hot rod supplies around here.
thanks for the offer, I might take you up on it? I'll let you know asap.
scrolling 'Lo' warning
I'm thinking it's display only, if it's audible, screw it, I'll take out that prick. Whenever I get a new vehicle the first thing I do is get under the dash and kill that annoying buzzer.
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Not the meter! The exeltech xp-125 makes an audible warning noise when it overheats, or at low voltage.
Oops, it helps when I read ALL the words. :P
It'll shut off at 10.4v, I want the meter to know when I'm getting close. It might be possible to swap out that little noise maker for a warning light without much expertise. If I only HAD ONE! :laugh:
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that meter is going to be key,... to making sure that the AUDIBLE low voltage alarm on the inverter doesn't mess up any intimate occasions ;)
Let me see if I can find anything around here. I have a ton of auto boutiques and hot rod supplies around here.
thanks for the offer, I might take you up on it? I'll let you know asap.
some other toys:
pretty straight forward:
(http://www.alphasonik.com/amplifiers/DigitalMeter.jpg)
only goes down to 11v, but it does temperature and will worn you of black ice conditions:
(http://www.meancycles.com/IMAGES/INVENTORY/bbp/4239.JPG)
plain level meter:
(http://stores.buyitsellit.com/quickcharge/images/products/fuel%20metersmall.jpg)
cigarette plug in type:
(http://www.cetsolar.com/images/1044.jpg)
like this one, but it's in .5v increments, and it's 99 bux:
(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/inmisc/voltmeter.jpg)
another simple display:
(http://www.sigtronics.com/air/pic/acc/dvm200.jpg)
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warns of black ice conditions!?!?! :o
yes!! thats the unit!!
thanks, +t
I figured with you being in so-cal, that feature alone would seal the deal.
+t backatch, 2699 just looked stupid.
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Test underway.
Started recording television audio signal at 7:25am via 12v 20ah deep cycle sla -> exeltech xp-125 -> tas dvra1000 (24/48 for extended length recording time. recorder spec'd at 34 watts)
Battery charged overnight to full float.
full charge = 13.00 volts at start of recording.
voltage reading after:
~ One hour recording time = 12.70 volts
The exeltech inverter is now just above ambient room temp, though not considered warm.
(its drizzling hard out right now @65º The house windows are open, so its about 65º)
~ Two hours recording time = 12.49 volts
the inverter is just slightly warmer than the last check.
~ Three hours recording time = 12.33 volts
the inverter is no warmer than before.
there is a noticeable transformer hum at this point, though not in the recording. Up 'til now, I had the lid of the batt box off. Putting the lid on helped reduce the noise. Some vibration dampening might help.
~ Four hours recording time = 12.05 volts
same inverter results as above.
~ Five hours recording time = 11.75 volts
inverter is a low level of warm @ 90º (measured)
ambient transformer noise persists.
Recorder start up load surge caused a very, very brief low power warning blip that was barely detectable when the unit was fired up to begin the sixth hour recording period.
*** Low power warning buzzer at 5 hours 53 minutes **** (very audible!)
The battery reads 11.29 volts. this was under no load except the multi-meter
117.5 volts ac output at this time
inverter = 90º with thermometer on the case.
per inverter manual specs;
10.6 volts = inverter warning noise
10.4 volts = inverter automatic shutoff
I'm not going to push to inverter auto shutdown, as you wouldn't be able to record past the warning noise, and you'd piss everyone off around you.
+t
Thanks a ton, I'm still waiting on my battery (just as much hassle as the inverter) but I'd like to fire this thing up next Wed, if my 12v 18mAh battery shows up it should power the unit fine. If not I'm yanking the car battery. ;D
I'll finally have a little time to actually play with the unit this week, I read through the manual a couple times and I think brain has recovered enough to try and do something with it. Is it just me or is this manual written in a totally incoherent manner? It leaves out tons of information I want answers to, but can't find. I'm hoping a supplement is coming soon.
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THANKS mOke
;D
I ran the DV-RA last night for Gov't Mule, used the first amber light on the V3 as a guide for levels in bypass mode and it worked perfect...
No more pre-show new gear jitters, I don't think things could have went more smoothly. Thanks for all the good info/feedback and help!
+t
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the futures here, we are it, we are on our own,.....
i hate quoting Weir, but its appropriate in this case.
glad i was able to offer up something that made sense in all the rambling.
Yes sir. 1 more show possible tonight... Now that I have a recorded disc I can play around with copying. I got hung up on the "format" process if you can believe that, gave up and walked away until I had more patience. I ended up buying a SLA from a local Interstate battery supplier here, mine (ordered 3 weeks ago) is scheduled for delivery today. If it doesn't show up, I'll test and see if I can get 2 2.5 runs out of a 12v 18mAH SLA. ;D
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I got hung up on the "format" process if you can believe that, gave up and walked away until I had more patience.
What happened?
the world knows of my great formatting faux pas,... so spill the beans ;D
The first screen that asks you if you'd like to format the disc "is this format ok". I saw 44 16 to the right and was assuming it was going to format the disc as 16/44.1. 2 days of swearing at the manual and bashing my head I fired it up and just hit enter, BINGO. Needless to say it was a pretty stupid newbie hang-up, no thanks to the manual for making that process more clear. ::)
"I don't want 16/44.1!?!" .... :banging head: ENTER ohhhhhhhh ;)
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I got 3.5 hours of non-continuous recording time out of my 12V 12AH battery with my cheapo power inverter. No extraneous noises on the recordings. $60 total for battery and inverter. I will push it more to see what the max time will be but I'm thinking 4 hours or more.
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I just bought a ps/2 keyboard, dedicated to the dvra1000, a $10 investment (new).
It so beats the living snot out of trying to use the jog wheel for text!! :-X god that sucked!!
Logitech like this?:
(http://img.nextag.com/imagefiles/big/000/000/680/615/68061519.jpg)
Or PS2 as in Playstation 2 like this?:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008OQTI.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
Great idea, I can see that thumbwheel getting old for text, can prob fit the 2nd one in the gator bag's pocket.
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actually,.... this was a total impromptu purchase, and I really wasn't thinking about bringing it along anywhere. But now that you mention it, that would be nice to have in a smaller size.
It does fit into the rear of the case, and on top of the recorder, but its too big for the pocket.
I might just get some plumbing pipe insulation and pad the keyboard, and keep it on top of the recorder in transit. :hmmm:
or be smart and label everything at home, and then leave the extra weight at home.
Note that it's (that smaller PS2 Playstation) a USB keyboard.
I can't remember which way it was, but my last keyboard had an adaptor with it, I just can't remember if it was the standard keyboard plug (like the input on the DVRA) > USB or a USB > standard. My only concern is if it needed drivers or something to make it work, you might be safer using a basic keyboard. I think I'll stick to labeling at home.
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man,... this thing is nice! heavy, back breaking, but really nice.
Its so well behaved in bypass mode. Its like a total groove spot when you hit unity gain, the thing just grooves!
It's worth the back strain isn't it. :P
I've only ran it one show and I'm totally impressed. The only thing I didn't do, which I will do next time, is set it to the 50min auto-track. I looked down and thought it said 1hr 29mins and hit rec to start another, I had the 671 set to mark tracks at 1hr and it said 29mins. If I wasn't suffering from new gear jitters my dumb ass would have realized that the 671 was still on track ONE at 29 mins and that I was only 29mins into the show. After hitting rec to set another track, I looked at my M1 backup and realized my stupidity 00:31:12, for a couple minutes there I thought I might have trashed the first set. :o
Lugged in: Tascam in a Gator rack bag w/the Exeltech interter mounted, a 12v 18aH SLA, V3 w/it's own 6v Eco-Charge SLA, Bogen 13' stand with a clamp/swivel T-bar, DPA shocks, Sure vert bar and at8410 shocks + various cables and 2 sets of mics, Marantz PMD671 and another EC-90 SLA and a M1 for backup. :crazy:
My back was pissed but my ears are happy. A big thanks to Jef-O from the Pitts crew for taking pity on me and lugging the 18aH SLA for me on the way out.