Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Species on May 07, 2005, 09:12:15 AM
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I went to see Paradise Lost ("goth metal") last night in a small club. I thought the show was extremely loud, but obviously not illegaly loud. It was my first recording ever and I'm far from pleased with the result. I was pretty confident that my rig could handle all non-lethal SPL situations, but the bass is heavily distorted. The good thing is that there are some parts that are excellent. The sound is quite clear, there's a stereo image, and the audience is not too loud. Without the distortion the recording would have been stunning. The rig and I got some serious potential together - we just need to practise more.
So, what went wrong with the recording?
Stealth rig: SP-CMC-4 -> SP-SPSB-6 -> Edirol R-1
Position: Way back next to the mixing desk. Approximately 10 metres from the stage.
First I thought the levels were set too high but they were not. I checked them in Adobe Audition and they were in fact very low - around -20 dB. I sort of set the levels when the support act played, then I didn't touch them.
Was it because I set the bass roll-off to 107 Hz instead of 160 Hz or even 195 Hz?
Or is it the bleeding microphones? They are supposed to be able to handle 125 dB with the battery box, and it can't have been that loud.
I'm kind of disappointed cause I was planning on seeding this show today, and now I don't have anything worth sharing. Why did this happen and how do I avoid it in the future? My next recordings will be outdoor festivals - most likely less loud. And not metal. I'm not into metal - Paradise Lost is the exception. Are metal gigs louder in general?
Follow the links for samples. Flac (13,1 MB) and mp3 (2,8 MB). They're normalized - nothing else.
http://www.new-order.se/files/PL_ForeverAfter.flac
http://www.new-order.se/files/PL_ForeverAfter.mp3
Any advice appreciated!
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from what i can remember
if you unmod you mics for phantom power it should fix it for the next show
Raphael
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Yup, Phantom Power is the way to go with the SP-CMC-4's (AT853's), maybe after the mod you could try the Denecke PS-2, or there are also others. Good luck!
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yeah the phantom mod definitely allows higher spl's (sound pressure levels) before distortion in those mics. I am certain that the mics were overloaded, and it is also possible that the preamp section in the R1 was overloaded. I have no idea if the preamp in the R1 can handle rock level sounds, maybe try searching here or at the www.oade.com boards, I'm sure the answer is around.
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I dont know the R1 and what it has for inputs, but I have a dumb question: were you running mic or line input? I assume it has both... might wanna try line for giggles... try cranking your stereo at home and seeing what happens..
-Jim
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Actually, it was very likely louder than 125 db. And your mics run by 9v battery power will distort in bass heavy/high spl situations. Your best bet is to run phantom power. And I've run 18v battery power before and it decreased distortion.
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Thanks guys!
Jhirte, I ran it line in. Before the show I tried it in my car with the stereo cranked up. The result was amazing. Absolutely stunning. The SPL at the show was of course not replicated in my car.
So, it's probably the mics that couldn't handle the SPL? I would have guessed that the mic specs were incorrect and that the 125 dB limit indicates where the mics explode and kill the taper - not where the distortion starts. But perhaps it was actually that loud, Karl. Are shows really that loud in general or is it mainly a metal thing? I'm worried that this rig turns out to be completely useless indoors.
I haven't considered phantom power. The phantom power makes it less stealthable and also much more expensive. I was sure this would be sufficient, and perhaps it is as long as I stay away from metal shows in small clubs.
The bass roll-off setting was okay and had nothing to do with it? ???
Chanher, I really hope it's not the R-1's preamp. Haven't found any written words about it so far. Will keep looking.
In a few weeks I'll probably record some shows at an outdoor/indoor festival. Wish me luck... :-\
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If you are wanting to keep it stealth and still handle monster spl's, then do 18v battery box power. Just rig it so that you have two 9v's in series.
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FWIW, the PS-2 is a pretty tiny piece of gear, and will replace your battery box, so you won't need too much more space. Might need some adaptors coming out of the ps-2 though. Never tried it without the AD-20 myself. Good luck!
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I wouldnt beat yourself up about it not being a great recording.I expect even the people that give advice on taping have had crap results at some time or another.True the bass is heavy but its not an unlistenable recording.
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species,
nice to see you hear dude. +T. my New Order NY show is coming!
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Karl, I'll probably try the 18 V thing. I remember you mentioned it in another thread. I'll read it again. Thanks. (I hope there are no side effects :-\)
Hi Ryan, nice to see you! Quite obvious what I'm practising for, innit? 8)
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Actually, it was very likely louder than 125 db.
I'm calling bullshit on that
30 some feet from the stage and it was louder than 125db? No way...
sounds like brickwalling to me, your levels were low yet the recording was distorted. try line in and see what happens...
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That was line in, Tim.
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damn, perhaps the specs are wrong on the mics? 125db is like a cannon going off... 115db is an extremely loud rock show, 125db is damn near the threshold of pain I believe
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damn, perhaps the specs are wrong on the mics? 125db is like a cannon going off... 115db is an extremely loud rock show, 125db is damn near the threshold of pain I believe
specs are absolutely wrong...actually let me correct that...they are right if powered correctly, the SoundPros version powers them with a 9 Volt battery box which does not allow them to perform to spec....I ran into this at a chili peppers show, wrote it off as being 15 feet from the bass cabinet, but then again at kid rock.....50 ft from the stacks...sold them soon after
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yeah, i highly doubt a venue will allow 125dB of spl. that's painful and dangerous.
marc
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yeah, i highly doubt a venue will allow 125dB of spl. that's painful and dangerous.
marc
Yeah I don't think that there is much chance it was anywhere near 125db. I remember at the old Capital Center in MD, they had a decibel board that would show the current decibels,and I don't ever remember it going over 110db. Even for Monster Truck events, and loud rock concerts. I don't have much experience myself but I would bet its the power issue.
Joe
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Actually, it was very likely louder than 125 db.
I'm calling bullshit on that
30 some feet from the stage and it was louder than 125db? No way...
sounds like brickwalling to me, your levels were low yet the recording was distorted. try line in and see what happens...
I guess I could be wrong on that one. I took an spl meter into my car once, and measured my car stereo at 132. Maybe it was miscalibrated. But I've been to quite a few concerts that are definitely louder than my car stereo.
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My suggestion is that you try and get out and get some testing in at shows you don't care about.
That way, you'll know where you stand when something you really care about comes up. And since you won't care about the show, you can record from different distances to the stacks, stop in the middle and go listen to what you have recorded (assuming you have headphones and a quiet spot).
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Hi Ryan, nice to see you! Quite obvious what I'm practising for, innit? 8)
I have no idea what your practicing for? ;)
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135dB, i think, is the threshold for pain. most concert levels are around 110-115 dB. of course if you get to the stacks it could be louder. I used to have a chart that said how long the human ear could undergo such high SPL's before hearing damage at different loudness levels. At the threshold of pain damage is instantaneous. at concert levels, i think our ears can only handle like 20-30 minutes before damage ensues.
as a side, geeky note, I measured the SPL levels of our dryers at the carwash. from 60ft outside of the tunnel it was still 80dB. standing at the center point of the dryers it was 100dBs. When i put the measurment omni in the motor part of the dryer it was 140db's.....whoa
so yeah.....wear earplugs :)
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yeah, i highly doubt a venue will allow 125dB of spl. that's painful and dangerous.
marc
Back in 1979, I took an acoustics engineering course at the University of Kansas. Part of our coursework was to take a sound pressure level meter to a live concert and monitor the SPLs. I took it to a Cheap Trick show at Allen Fieldhouse where I was able to get within about 30 yards of the main stacks and about 10 yards to the left side of the left stack. At that position, I was getting nearly constant readings of 123 to 124 dB on the C weighted slow scale. I saw a couple of readings on that setting at 126. On the A weighted fast scale, I saw 128. Had I been able to get closer to the stacks, I probably would have had higher readings yet. I thought I was going to turn in the record SPLs for the semester, but someone else went to the Molly Hachet show at Hoch Auditorium and came back with readings in excess of 136 dB on the C weighted slow scale (Yikes!). He was not wearing ear protection and his ears were ringing for over a month afterwards. Even that was not the all-time record. Two semesters previous to that, someone went to the Yes concert at Hoch Auditorium and came back with readings of 142. The rumor was that they were running a PA system that was capable of 200 kW total output power and that they kept blowing fuses during soundcheck, but hooked into their own trailer-mounted generator for the main show.
So, yes... Some shows are dangerously loud. 125 dB is generally accepted as the threshold of pain. FWIW, I always wear earplugs unless I can comfortably talk with people at a socially acceptable distance (3 or 4 feet). I'm guessing that I never hear a show at greater than 100 dB without earplugs.