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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Professor chaos on May 22, 2005, 01:14:19 AM
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i am thinking of trying to run mg m210->m248->pcm-m1 for some shows i wanna stealth. has anyone ever held the mics in their hands and had good results? getting the stuff in is not a problem. i am thinking three things:
1) hold a mic in each hand pointed at stacks
2)use a t bar clamped to short pole and hold it.
3)somehow attach the mics to a hat
option #1 seems like the most feasible way. option #2 i've tried at home, but it is not too stealthy and could get heavy. i don't think im even gonna try #3 because i don't want to mess up my mics attaching them to a hat. i would appreciate any help on this topic, thanks.
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4) Buy some stealth mics. :P
Sorry, couldnt help it.
Man, holding any mics for a few hours would be tough, wouldnt it? Feel the burn.
+T
Jim
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Option #1 sounds heavy too if you're going to be holding the mics in the same place for the full show. Another problem with option #1 is that you don't have a free hand to check and set levels with.
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i'll have a friend w/ me to set levels. no money for stealth mics.
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a couple of questions:
Who are you taping and in what sort of venue?
Why not just bring in a stand and run it at head level and hope that security doesn't mess with you?
Are you made of steel yourself because holding your arms in any extended position for more than 10 minutes or so is going to be nearly impossible?
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if you dont mind looking stupid (i dont :)) with a straw cowboy hat on you can use velcro on the inside of the upper portion of the hat to hold em up in there. cut a couple of holes in it to set the cap ends in. cowboy hats look stupid but they are real nice for stealthing large mics and they do a nice job of hiding the cables as well..... 8)
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option 5
Use some right angle connectors on your cables and tuck the miics in your armpits. Your arms will hide the cables, both hands will be free to adjust levels, clap, pass things etc.; though movement may cause noise on the tape. Depending on lengths of the mic bodies, you may be able to get close to a DIN or ORTF configuration. I've done this for several shows using some Naks. Recordings aren't great but are very listenable. When neither stealth mics nor stands are an option, you gotta do what you can to get that recording.
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My longest hand held effort,...
Robert Hunter opening for Jerry Garcia Band. Hand holding Senn md421's for the whole show (3 sets).
For those not familiar, the 421's might just make the ADK TL's seem like lightweights, as far as weight goes.
I'm glad someone mentioned GD/JGB taping - let's not forget that pre-open taping days everyone taped this way and many continued to do so long afterward as the taping section was usually in a sonically crappy location, so stealth FOB was the way to go for quality tapes. I remember the modifed Nak 700's in hat being used a lot, but for the full size mics most folks hand held a t-bar with the mics in the desired pattern - I definitely don't recommend holding each mic separately, especially if they are directional. A short section of stand attached to the t-bar to hold onto should work great. A lot depends on the sort of venue you are talking about - if it is a GA on the floor type show like a GD show then in most cases this is pretty easy - as m0k3 mentioned, drape something like black lace or silk over the mics - I used to wear all dark clothes as well to blend in. I personally like the hand-held t-bar approach much better then a short stand - I like being completely self-contained and mobile as needed. A friend will be necessary to get things rolling, watch levels etc. I remember some folks used to hide their mics/t-bar under a dark-colored mexican sarape with holes cut for the caps to stick out. a friend ran the gear right next to them from a backpack. Your biggest problem will be rowdy people near you but if you can get some friends to help create a buffer (and keep an eye out for security) then that will help. This appraoch can also be used in sit-down reserved theatres as well but try to get some friends to sit on either side of you and you'll have to judge how high and openly you run them based on seat location, level of security, lighting levels etc. If it's more of a club-type venue then you'll have to get more creative.
The bottom line is this was done for years with mics the size of Nak 300s and larger - remember the Neumann tube mics that Chuck used to run at the Warfield. Granted security and venues may be more aware of taping these days then back then, but more then likely they won't be as aware as GD/BGP staff were back in the days, so it is definitely do-able.
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Instead of hand-holding, could you get a collapsible monopod and just hold the monopod rather than hand-holding the tapes? Or maybe rig something up around your neck to dangle the mics at chest level rather than trying to hold them up with your hands...
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I think the mg's can be stealthed in hat without damaging them. I kangol would probably do the trick, I know plenty of people use the 480s in them and they are only slight smaller than the mgs. The bigger problem (and I'm surprised no one has mentioned this) is stealthing the m148. How the heck are you going to pull that off?
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monopod and right-angled cables
I've "stealthed" with a pair of Neumann tlm170's, ADK a51tl's, and now Studio Projects LSD2 on a 'pod. No guts, no glory.
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We tag-teamed taped a show in November of 2003. I ran the V3>DA-P1 and Coop hand-held wives blocked the views of ushers. IMHO, it came out very well. Hand-holding is tough, but can be done. However, if you can get a retractable walking stick (you add the treaded adapter) or monopod with a threaded end, then all you really need is a black panty hose or hanky to drape over the goods and make it less 'shiny' when lights hit it. You can tape a short piece of a cardboard tube to the armrest of your seat so you don't have to hold it the whole time. Just keep them low until the lights go down and raise them up to shoulder or head heigth.
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Not exactly stealthy, but one thing that I am working on is attaching SP-C4's to a hat brim so that I can tape from the sweet spot at any show and am not anchored to an official section or even to a convenient spot to clamp or put a stand. The best method that I've come up with so far is to rubber band the mics together right below the cap and then pivot out to a 90* angle, set the mics on the hat brim, and duct tape (or other wise affix) the wires to the hat above your ears to hold the whole thing in place. I then run the wires down the back of my shirt to my rig in a Lowepro fanny pack style camera bag. The mic configuration is very close to X-Y. The one thing that you have to worry about is the mic bodies rubbing on each other where they are rubberbanded together, so I put a piece of this athletic tape around each one at that spot.
It's not a stealth rig because I end up walking around with two large, shiny silver mics sitting on a hat brim, but it gives me complete mobility and both hands free. I'm considering getting an XL sized Kangol to see if it will fit overtop of a normal baseball hat for more stealthiness/anonymity. If so, I will just cut holes so that the caps stick out, and off I will go.
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i saw a guy taping panic at the tower with his hat set up like that. was that you?
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Instead of hand-holding, could you get a collapsible monopod and just hold the monopod rather than hand-holding the tapes? Or maybe rig something up around your neck to dangle the mics at chest level rather than trying to hold them up with your hands...
yes, a monopod is perfect.... dnsacks has a walking stick with a thread adapter on it that he has used.
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i stealthed with earthworks sr77s in my sleeves. i was front row for a mingus big band show and had my arms folded in my lap in an ortf position with the mics peeking out of the sleeves.
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i saw a guy taping panic at the tower with his hat set up like that. was that you?
I saw that dude too. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why he didn't just take clamp space on one of the stands that were all around him.
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i saw a guy taping panic at the tower with his hat set up like that. was that you?
Yes, most likely (unless someone else was doing that too), although I was still working out bugs in the technique at that show. At that show, I had the mics attached to my hat using a spare bungee cord I had lying around, but that proved to be both uncomfortable and difficult to keep the mics in the proper X-Y position. I have since figured out how to use the rubber bands to better affix and align the mics on the hat. The next (larger) show that I will be at with that set up will be the Meters/KDTU/MCPR night of the Clifford Brown jazz festival, where I will try to maneuver into the sweetest spot in the venue.
That Panic show for me was basically just an experiment since I knew there would be dozens of people taping (and therefore, I could get a great sounding copy of the show even if I f-ed up my recording), and I really just wanted to see if that setup would work. My tape came out sounding OK, but my seat was a bit too far from the stage/PA for the C4s in that venue given the boominess. I grabbed Jon Merin's Scheops copy off bt.etree, and it is much better. Although I don't really expect my mics to ever compete with fob Scheops in that type of venue.
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Hand holding mics is not impossible as some have pointed out. Doing sound work on movie and location TV shoots involves holding a boom up for long periods of time. I've done this and am glad I don't anymore. Definately a young persons job. ;)
Good luck, however you do it.
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i am thinking of trying to run mg m210->m248->pcm-m1 for some shows i wanna stealth. has anyone ever held the mics in their hands and had good results? getting the stuff in is not a problem. i am thinking three things:
1) hold a mic in each hand pointed at stacks
I've done this many times and it is a goddamn hassle. My hand (typically right hand) hurts like hell and its so cramped up after the show it literally takes me five minutes of flexing my fingers to get all the feeling back :o
But it's worth it! ;D
One of the best shows i taped where i held the mics in my hand was a faint show back in Oct 2004 and the recording sounds incredible.
On the flip side its far less discreet so you gotta keep your eyes peeled for security walking in the crowd which has happened to me several times.
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I've handheld the mk4v's a few times. Nice and easy to hold them in one hand side by side in a XY config. It does start to get painful and cramped after a while though. I hate stealthing, but sometimes its worth it. I like to drink and that doesn't go over so well after an hour or so and 5-6 beers. The tapes I have made though have been awesome.
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as others have posted, this is not hard to do. if it is a quiet show, you will need shockmounts and/or a foam handgrip for the t-bar as the quiet segments of the show will really make any handling noise very clear. if the show has high spl's you won't hear the handling noise but it will still be there. i used to have a really nice foam handgrip made by location sound corp. in l.a. it had a 5/8-27 female thread on it and was perfect. it is also important to hold the mics as high as you can to eliminate any comb filtering or phasing from people moving their heads around you. when i taped gd shows handheld i would hold the pair on a tbar just below my eyes or in front of my forehead. this will also prevent any exhalations from your nostrils becoming an annoying rumble on the recording. you also should try to hold the mics as motionless as possible, the monopod or stand is a good plan, as is a helper. the best stealth tapes are always a 2 person operation, although it is very do-able by yourself. just remember to have your dummy tape and don't be holding anything that would get you into real trouble if the police get involved. best of luck and try not to look like you are up to no good.
coop
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I read a thread a while back about using a wire clothes hanger and some velcro to make it happen with out holding the mics. Went somthing like this ;)
1-Shape the hanger into whichever pattern you want to run.
2-Put lots of velcro on the back of the hanger and take the opposite side of the velcro (kind with sticky back) with you to the show.
3-Attach the mics to a pole.