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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Josephine on May 30, 2005, 02:10:19 PM

Title: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Josephine on May 30, 2005, 02:10:19 PM
Grider mentioned in his Black Crowes thread that he recorded at "48 khz rather than my standard 44.1."  Can someone explain to me the difference between the two?  I have been recording @ 44.1.  Should I be doing it at 48?  Are there pros and cons and is there a sonic difference?
Thanks.
:)
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: leegeddy on May 30, 2005, 02:14:10 PM
Grider mentioned in his Black Crowes thread that he recorded at "48 khz rather than my standard 44.1."  Can someone explain to me the difference between the two?  I have been recording @ 44.1.  Should I be doing it at 48?  Are there pros and cons and is there a sonic difference?
Thanks.
:)

32kHz is best  :P

just kidding, josephine.

marc
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Nick Graham on May 30, 2005, 02:14:38 PM
Well, if you're planning on going to CD, it's probably better to just stick with 44.1

Unless you listen to your DATs, there's no real reason to do 48khz.

Just my $.02

Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Josephine on May 30, 2005, 02:16:17 PM
Grider mentioned in his Black Crowes thread that he recorded at "48 khz rather than my standard 44.1."  Can someone explain to me the difference between the two?  I have been recording @ 44.1.  Should I be doing it at 48?  Are there pros and cons and is there a sonic difference?
Thanks.
:)

32kHz is best  :P

just kidding, josephine.


marc


I most definitely had that one coming, Marc . . . . +t   ;)

<edited for boo-boo>
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: leegeddy on May 30, 2005, 02:19:15 PM
Grider mentioned in his Black Crowes thread that he recorded at "48 khz rather than my standard 44.1."  Can someone explain to me the difference between the two?  I have been recording @ 44.1.  Should I be doing it at 48?  Are there pros and cons and is there a sonic difference?
Thanks.
:)

32kHz is best  :P

just kidding, josephine.

marc
I most definitely had that one coming, marc . . . . +t   ;)


backatcha!!

hope ya scotch taped those switches down on your d100.

marc
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Lil Kim Jong-Il on May 30, 2005, 02:20:32 PM
I always recorded at 48K because I argued that there was more frequency resolution.  However, the difference between 44.1K and 48K is arguably not audible and 44.1 goes straight to CD without the additional step of having to down sample.  So for most people going from DAT/JB3 to CCDA, I think 44.1 would be the most convenient rate to use.

On the other hand, I'm getting ready to go back and read all my old DAT masters for authoring to DVD and the DVDV format will only support 48K and 96K LPCM rates.  So I'm better off having 48K masters because I'd have to upsample 44.1k recordings to meet the format restrictions.  I guess it comes down to how much inconvenience you want today in exchange for flexibility later. 
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Nick Graham on May 30, 2005, 02:23:52 PM
I guess it comes down to how much inconvenience you want today in exchange for flexibility later.

Agreed. Even though I was just extoling the virtues of recording at 44.1, all my tapes are at 48  :)

You should also make sure you have proper software for resampling if you tape at 48...I've got Soundforge, so no problems on my end - but others should be forewarned.
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: leegeddy on May 30, 2005, 02:24:33 PM
I always recorded at 48K because I argued that there was more frequency resolution.  However, the difference between 44.1K and 48K is arguably not audible and 44.1 goes straight to CD without the additional step of having to down sample.  So for most people going from DAT/JB3 to CCDA, I think 44.1 would be the most convenient rate to use.

On the other hand, I'm getting ready to go back and read all my old DAT masters for authoring to DVD and the DVDV format will only support 48K and 96K LPCM rates.  So I'm better off having 48K masters because I'd have to upsample 44.1k recordings to meet the format restrictions.  I guess it comes down to how much inconvenience you want today in exchange for flexibility later. 

well said.  i agree with you.

personally, i always record at 48k since i do listen to dats more often at home.

marc
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Josephine on May 30, 2005, 02:36:39 PM
Thanks for the education, gentlemen.
:)
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: JackoRoses on May 30, 2005, 02:53:48 PM
here was some chat on the r4 and sampling
that you may wish to reference
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=38490.15
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Swampy on May 30, 2005, 02:59:14 PM
Also, somewhere there is a big 44.1 vs 48 thread somewhere... Lemmie see if I can find it...
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: sml42 on May 30, 2005, 04:00:46 PM
As I recall there was some discussion as to whether the conversion 48>44.1 introduced any artefacts. At the very least, it is an extra step, and time consuming. The improvement in audio quality going from 44.1 to 48 is fairly small, and if you intended to master everything to audio CD I believe opinion is to just record at 44.1 and save yourself the bother of converting.

The difference between 16- and 24-bit, on the other hand, is as night and day :)

best regards,
stephen
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: dgodwin on May 30, 2005, 04:40:22 PM
I remember back in the day (1999) when I got my D7, I recorded everything at 48k (no choice) and it would take hours to adjust the sample rate on the computer (celeron 300...)  With the power of today's machines (athlon XP 3200+ 64 bit) it doesn't take nearly as long.  Just long enough to grab a coffee, or check the email on another machine.  Thanks to this thread, I may go back to recording at 48k.  Downsampling isn't nearly as problematic as it used to be. 
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Lil Kim Jong-Il on May 30, 2005, 05:22:02 PM
I may go back to recording at 48k. Downsampling isn't nearly as problematic as it used to be.

Also, if you decide to go with 1648 on DVD in the future, you can use your masters as they were recorded.  If you record at 44.1, you will have to upsample to 48k to put LPCM to a DVDV.  I understand that there may be artifacts as a result of resampling.  I'd rather have those artifacts in the CDs I give away than the 1648 DVDs that I'll use as my ultimate longterm format. 

1648 LPCM on DVD is just over 6hours of music - so two shows or two opening sets and the main act all on one DVD instead of 5-6 CDs.
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: JasonSobel on May 30, 2005, 05:26:22 PM
while DVD-V can only handle 48kHz or 96KHz, DVD-Audio discs can be burned at 44.1kHz.

That said, I still do all of my DAT recording at 48kHz.  For me, although the difference is minimal, 48kHz is, theoretically, slightly better.  Given this, and the fairly easy and quick procedure to resample for CD's, 48kHz is for me.  I should note that prior to Dec. '03, I recorded everything at 44.1kHz, because my old crappy computer would take 12 hours to resample an hour of music.  then I got a new computer, and it takes about 15 min for the same hour of music to resample.
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Lil Kim Jong-Il on May 30, 2005, 05:39:26 PM
while DVD-V can only handle 48kHz or 96KHz, DVD-Audio discs can be burned at 44.1kHz.

Yeah, but I'm too cheap to buy Discwelder.  I bought audio-DVD-creator instead and prompty spent $60 on beer.  ;D
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Swampy on May 30, 2005, 05:41:24 PM
Here are a few threads with some info on this topic

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=27066.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=8297.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=2311.0
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Josephine on May 30, 2005, 06:26:30 PM
Thanks for the links, Alex. +t

Having read through them, my next question is this:  Besides fitting more music on to less media, what is the benefit to my storing masters on DVD?
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: F.O.Bean on May 30, 2005, 06:33:06 PM
I only use 48k on the v3 for 'larger' acts like phish :P
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: super-phat-al on May 30, 2005, 06:46:25 PM
i record at 44.1 just because its easier with out having to resample
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Swampy on May 30, 2005, 10:14:34 PM
Thanks for the links, Alex. +t

Having read through them, my next question is this: Besides fitting more music on to less media, what is the benefit to my storing masters on DVD?

Well, some people do DVD-A playback which means a whole show possibly on 1 dvd instead of 3 cds...
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Lil Kim Jong-Il on May 30, 2005, 10:26:16 PM
Thanks for the links, Alex. +t

Having read through them, my next question is this: Besides fitting more music on to less media, what is the benefit to my storing masters on DVD?

A benefit is that DVD can store explicit source information in the file system and also you can have menus with the song list.  (I know that you can use CDtext but I don't know anyone who uses that regularly).  If you take photos at shows or have images you like, you can author a disk with an image slideshow to go along with the music.

Another thing (which may not be useful to many people),  is that every CD transport model has different offsets, so there is really no way to reliably rip a CD and validate against a known fingerprint across platforms.   A DVD uses a data file format, so if you want to test the finger print of a DVD, you can sum the files in the DVD file structure to ensure integrity against a known fingerprint.
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: JackoRoses on May 31, 2005, 05:01:20 AM
Thanks for the links, Alex. +t

Having read through them, my next question is this: Besides fitting more music on to less media, what is the benefit to my storing masters on DVD?

A benefit is that DVD can store explicit source information in the file system and also you can have menus with the song list.  (I know that you can use CDtext but I don't know anyone who uses that regularly).  If you take photos at shows or have images you like, you can author a disk with an image slideshow to go along with the music.

Another thing (which may not be useful to many people),  is that every CD transport model has different offsets, so there is really no way to reliably rip a CD and validate against a known fingerprint across platforms.   A DVD uses a data file format, so if you want to test the finger print of a DVD, you can sum the files in the DVD file structure to ensure integrity against a known fingerprint.
which is what the EAC offset databse was for, I thought?
There is a way to determine the offset and I thought it was quite reliable.
Most cd/DVD roms out there that are good have their offset in the EAC databas already.
I am one that uses the cd text feature when burning cds. In the comments I put down the source.
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Brian on May 31, 2005, 09:46:06 AM
i record at 44.1 just because its easier with out having to resample

not to mention you don't crunch your sound by dividing by those nasty fractions.  that's why i will always record in either 44.1 or 88.2kHz when i know the end result will end up being a 16bit CD.  Of course,  these days, the resampling processes in various programs are much better than they were say 5 years ago. 
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: discopanic1 on June 01, 2005, 07:28:32 PM
If you are gonna use Riverpast Audio Converter, then just record at 44.1 since there is a great loss in quality dealing with that software.  I use CEP 2.0 when converting to 48k.  I have SoundForge but haven't actually sit down to figure it out yet. 
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: BobW on June 03, 2005, 08:40:28 PM
If you are gonna use Riverpast Audio Converter, then just record at 44.1 since there is a great loss in quality dealing with that software.  I use CEP 2.0 when converting to 48k.  I have SoundForge but haven't actually sit down to figure it out yet. 

CEP/ AA  is easier, the wizard does it all.
SF has pop-ups that will guide you as to which steps in what order.

Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: Tim on June 04, 2005, 03:37:53 PM
I always recorded at 48K because I argued that there was more frequency resolution. However, the difference between 44.1K and 48K is arguably not audible and 44.1 goes straight to CD without the additional step of having to down sample. So for most people going from DAT/JB3 to CCDA, I think 44.1 would be the most convenient rate to use.

On the other hand, I'm getting ready to go back and read all my old DAT masters for authoring to DVD and the DVDV format will only support 48K and 96K LPCM rates. So I'm better off having 48K masters because I'd have to upsample 44.1k recordings to meet the format restrictions. I guess it comes down to how much inconvenience you want today in exchange for flexibility later.

well said. i agree with you.

personally, i always record at 48k since i do listen to dats more often at home.

marc

ditto
Title: Re: 48 khz vs. 44.1
Post by: NewHomebrew on June 13, 2005, 09:14:28 PM
Your master is archival.  The more samples, the better.  Who knows what the future brings for technology?  I vote 48.