Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: javichun on August 23, 2005, 12:10:13 PM
-
Hi,
well, I'm a newbie to tape recording, after some years trading and listening to live music a couple of friends and myself have decided to get some equipment.
I have been reading the FAQ's and many post in the last few days but I can't make up my mind yet so I think I'll ask to the expertsout there.
1. We have a NJB3 (just acquired fom Steven en the Yard Sales board), we can't wait to get our hands on it :D
2. For the mics we were thinking of getting: SP-CMC-2 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS. They are not very expensive and as we are using it for stealthing we want the mics to be small. I have read they are quite good. The other mic option was this on: MM-HLSC-2 HighLine "Sennheiser Driven" Cardioid Stereo Microphones, they are a little more expensive and I don't know if the difference will be big in sound (I have listened to some shows taped with this set of mics and they sound nice). Any suggestion will be welcomed.
3. Now this is the part were I get a little lost:
- I need power for the mics, is this right? What do you recommend?
- I don't know if a preamp would be a good buy. If I get one do I also need power for the mics or the preamp is enough to power the mics?
Well, I hope you can give me some advice as I'm a little lost in this world... I hope I can learn a lot from you.
Thanks in advance,
Javi
PS.- Sorry for my poor english I hope I explained myself OK :-[
-
In response to Item #3:
Mics that terminate into an 1/8" mini stereo plug can be powered through a recorders mic-in stage. This is not advisable to do if you want the best quality recording.
You will want to run your mics into your recorder using the line-in stage. You can either power your mics with a battery box or with a 48 volt phantom power source. The 48 volt phantom power source is the best option for quality, but you will have to make sure that the mics are modified to accept phantom power.
You do not have to use a pre-amp (I don't), but you will need to use line transformers to boost the signal strength enough to get good levels on your recorder going line-in. If you do use a pre-amp, it will more than likely provide 48 volts phantom power to the mics.
You can use the A/D converter in the recorder, or buy a separate one (for better quality).
As you can see, better quality recordings will require additional gear than just mics & recorder.
-
Hi,
thanks for the quick response. I read about using the line in (not the mic in) so I was plannig on using it. Will the mics fit in the line-in directly or does it need some kind of adapter?
About the A/D converter I was checking them but they are quite expensive (or at least the ones I checked) so I don't think we will be getting one for a start... maybe in a future we will get it.
What exactly is phantom power BTW? the soundprofessional mics can use phatom power suppplies?
So many questions............................. ???
Thanks for the info.
Javi.
-
The mics will plug directly into line-in. Line-in and Mic-in usually shares the same jack on the recorder. There is a way to switch between the two using controls on the recorder.
There is an A/D converter built into the recorder, however, it isn't considered to be the best of quality. It will have to do for now.
Phantom power is a 48 volt power source for the mics. Battery boxes provide power to mics, but at a lower voltage. If you run your mics on phantom power instead of a battery box, the mics will handle higher SPL's without overloading. This will be especially important if you are recording very loud music. Sound Professional mics have an option for a phantom power modification if buying new. If buying used, you can verify with the seller if the mics have the phantom power modification. Many people have their mics set up so that they can run on phantom power or a battery box (instead of one or the other).
I believe that most of the Sound Professional mics are based on the Audio Technica unipoint series mics (i.e. AT853's). Many folks here would suggest that you just buy AT mics from the start, as they come ready to use with phantom power. You may want to visit the Team Sound Professionals group on this site for more information on their products. I have only heard good things about their customer service.
-
Well, I checked the AT's and were a little over the budget... I read they were nice and I have listened to many recordings done with them... maybe we can update sometime...
Thanks for the info about the custom mics to support phantom power, that was something I didn't know... I'll check that.
Maybe this is an stupid question, but this is really difficult to me ??? what is the function of bass roll-off option in the battery box?
What is the "Team Sound Professionals group"? I made a search in the forum and didn't come with any result.
Thanks for your help,
Javi
-
Maybe this is an stupid question, but this is really difficult to me ??? what is the function of bass roll-off option in the battery box?
Basically, the roll-off allows you to notch out a specific set of frequencies, on the lower end of the frequency spectrum, so the recording doesn't sound too "bassy" or "boomy" - Some people here find them to be a necessity, others do not - its really a matter of taste... and it also depends on the bass response of your microphones.
-
Hi,
well, I'm a newbie to tape recording, after some years trading and listening to live music a couple of friends and myself have decided to get some equipment.
I have been reading the FAQ's and many post in the last few days but I can't make up my mind yet so I think I'll ask to the expertsout there.
1. We have a NJB3 (just acquired fom Steven en the Yard Sales board), we can't wait to get our hands on it :D
2. For the mics we were thinking of getting: SP-CMC-2 - SOUND PROFESSIONALS. They are not very expensive and as we are using it for stealthing we want the mics to be small. I have read they are quite good. The other mic option was this on: MM-HLSC-2 HighLine "Sennheiser Driven" Cardioid Stereo Microphones, they are a little more expensive and I don't know if the difference will be big in sound (I have listened to some shows taped with this set of mics and they sound nice). Any suggestion will be welcomed.
3. Now this is the part were I get a little lost:
- I need power for the mics, is this right? What do you recommend?
- I don't know if a preamp would be a good buy. If I get one do I also need power for the mics or the preamp is enough to power the mics?
Well, I hope you can give me some advice as I'm a little lost in this world... I hope I can learn a lot from you.
Thanks in advance,
Javi
PS.- Sorry for my poor english I hope I explained myself OK :-[
Hi Javi,
Welcome to the addiction!
1. JB3: This is a great start, you can use this if you remain with small mics running analog in, or even if you move up in $ to better mics and an A/D. So for a recorder you're pretty much set! Get the latest software for the JB3 here: http://www.nomadworld.com/products/jukebox3/
2. SP-CMC-2: I think you'll be very happy with these. If you do open taping get some good windscreens though.
3. For the SP-CMC-2, you'll want to run these with a battery box, not phantom power which would fry them. To the best of my knowledge (I have two of them) the JB3 doesn't have a mic-in connection and the line-in doesn't supply mic power. So you need the battery box. The SoundProfessionals SP-SPSB-1 would be a good choice. I like mine but never use the bass roll off. It's only $20 extra though. You don't need the level control because even in the loudest environment you won't brickwall your recorder. You will never need to turn them down, in fact you will find that you will always need to add some gain with the JB3.
Good luck!
Todd
-
I use that exact setup.
Some samples here for you to listen:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=41069.0
-
Hi,
thanks for all the info!!
Well, I think I'll probably take the SPCMC2 > SPSPSB1 > Nomad JB3 option. That would something like 200$ which is fine for a start... I listened to your samples Humbug and they are nice :D hope I can get that kind of results myself.
So then this is how it would work... correct me if I'm wrong:
- Mics (SPCMC2) > battery for the mics (SPSPSB1) [I guess the mics will connect Ok in the battery] > NJB3 (line-in)
I read something in the NJB3 FAQs about setting the recording levels, any advice about it to those using a NJB3?
Well, thanks for all your help, I will be asking for more help soon and I'll let you know my experience in the field. I have some shows coming soon but I don't know if I will get the equipment by then, I didn't want to get the mics until I had a NJB3.
Javi
-
3. For the SP-CMC-2, you'll want to run these with a battery box, not phantom power which would fry them. To the best of my knowledge (I have two of them) the JB3 doesn't have a mic-in connection and the line-in doesn't supply mic power. So you need the battery box. The SoundProfessionals SP-SPSB-1 would be a good choice. I like mine but never use the bass roll off. It's only $20 extra though. You don't need the level control because even in the loudest environment you won't brickwall your recorder. You will never need to turn them down, in fact you will find that you will always need to add some gain with the JB3.
Good luck!
Todd
tms:
I didn't realize that the jb3 doesn't have a mic-in feature like most recorders do. I was just trying to make a blanket statement that you don't want to use any recorders mic-in as a rule of thumb, because line-in will give better results.
As far as powering the mics, SP offers a modification that allows you to run them on phantom power. That is the best way to run them because it will allow higher SPL's. You will not fry the mics if you run them properly with phantom power (i.e. get the $100 modification option).
That's also why I suggested to go ahead and get the AT models, because they are ready to accept phantom power.
-
Also, if you throw some line transformers into the chain you should not have to boost levels in post. They don't cost very much.
-
Well, thanks for the info about the phatom power... but it is more expensive and I don't know. Which AT's are the best for stealthing? I've listened to nice shows recorded with AT831... I will take a look.
And another thing: what exactly are "line transformers"? what is their function and where can I find them?
Thanks for all your help.
Javi
-
'Best' AT's for stealthing? I'm sure there are numerous opinions, but you can't go wrong with the AT853's, IMO. They can be used open taping or stealth taping.
Line transformers boost the mic signal strength going into the recorder's line-in jack. People who do not use a pre-amp use line transformers usually. You could also boost the levels in post via software, but as I said, the line transformers are the option that I use and they are pretty cheap.
Do a froogle search for Hosa MIT-176. There are others available as well.
-
'Best' AT's for stealthing? I'm sure there are numerous opinions, but you can't go wrong with the AT853's, IMO. They can be used open taping or stealth taping.
Line transformers boost the mic signal strength going into the recorder's line-in jack. People who do not use a pre-amp use line transformers usually. You could also boost the levels in post via software, but as I said, the line transformers are the option that I use and they are pretty cheap.
Do a froogle search for Hosa MIT-176. There are others available as well.
Can you explain the pro's and con's of each?
From what I can see the differences for line transformers vs. a pre-amp are:
Small and in-line with cable vs. a box which is somewhat larger depending on preamp
No battery vs. battery powered
Not adjustable vs. adjustable gain w/ a preamp
No bass roll-off vs. some preamp's have bass roll off
Any difference in quality?
This is all somewhat off topic for the original poster though, isn't it? Doesn't he still need a battery box? Or are you suggesting he could run the AT853's > battery box > line transformers > JB3 and that way avoid a preamp.
-
yes he could use the transformers in lieu of a preamp.
a lot of folks use them, both with mics, and with SBD patches.
-
I was checking the AT's and they are a little expensive... it's something like 200$ 1 microphonee so it would be 400$ for a start and that's quite a lot at the moment. I'll keep them in mind for the future ;)
I also checked the line transformer but now I have another doubt:
I think the connection won't fit I finally get this set - SPCMC2 > SPSPSB1, what type of connections do the transformers have? I suppose there are adapters but what is the exact type of adapter I need. The NJB3 has a 3,5" line-in connection, and I think the SPSPSB1 has the same kind of connection out.
The more I keep reading this forum the more confused I am ??? I hope I can keep learning from you ;)
Thanks for your help,
Javi
-
I was checking the AT's and they are a little expensive... it's something like 200$ 1 microphonee so it would be 400$ for a start and that's quite a lot at the moment. I'll keep them in mind for the future ;)
I also checked the line transformer but now I have another doubt:
I think the connection won't fit I finally get this set - SPCMC2 > SPSPSB1, what type of connections do the transformers have? I suppose there are adapters but what is the exact type of adapter I need. The NJB3 has a 3,5" line-in connection, and I think the SPSPSB1 has the same kind of connection out.
The more I keep reading this forum the more confused I am ??? I hope I can keep learning from you ;)
Thanks for your help,
Javi
the hosa mit 176 is XLR F one one end>1/4 in jack on the other. so i guess you need a stereo mini>xlrm adapter and then 1/4>mini plug on the other to go into the jb3
-
I was checking the AT's and they are a little expensive... it's something like 200$ 1 microphonee so it would be 400$ for a start and that's quite a lot at the moment. I'll keep them in mind for the future ;)
I also checked the line transformer but now I have another doubt:
I think the connection won't fit I finally get this set - SPCMC2 > SPSPSB1, what type of connections do the transformers have? I suppose there are adapters but what is the exact type of adapter I need. The NJB3 has a 3,5" line-in connection, and I think the SPSPSB1 has the same kind of connection out.
The more I keep reading this forum the more confused I am ??? I hope I can keep learning from you ;)
Thanks for your help,
Javi
the hosa mit 176 is XLR F one one end>1/4 in jack on the other. so i guess you need a stereo mini>xlrm adapter and then 1/4>mini plug on the other to go into the jb3
If you are going to use a battery box and not phantom power (48 volts), you should probably just boost the levels in post if needed. I plug the xlr females on the line transformers into my phantom power supply. You can then use a 1/4" to stereo mini 'Y' cable to go into a recorder. My stealth rig uses a battery box, and I don't need transformers to get a good line-in signal. Check out my rig signatures to see the order of the chains.
You should be able to score some new AT853's for approx. $300 a pair. Look for used on ebay.
-
'Best' AT's for stealthing? I'm sure there are numerous opinions, but you can't go wrong with the AT853's, IMO. They can be used open taping or stealth taping.
Line transformers boost the mic signal strength going into the recorder's line-in jack. People who do not use a pre-amp use line transformers usually. You could also boost the levels in post via software, but as I said, the line transformers are the option that I use and they are pretty cheap.
Do a froogle search for Hosa MIT-176. There are others available as well.
Can you explain the pro's and con's of each?
From what I can see the differences for line transformers vs. a pre-amp are:
Small and in-line with cable vs. a box which is somewhat larger depending on preamp
No battery vs. battery powered
Not adjustable vs. adjustable gain w/ a preamp
No bass roll-off vs. some preamp's have bass roll off
Any difference in quality?
This is all somewhat off topic for the original poster though, isn't it? Doesn't he still need a battery box? Or are you suggesting he could run the AT853's > battery box > line transformers > JB3 and that way avoid a preamp.
Let's compare pre-amp vs. no pre-amp in the chain (going line-in):
Line transformers are used to provide gain if you are not using a pre. As stated earlier, you could also boost the levels in post. You will need a battery whether you are using a pre or not, to power the mics. You will either be powering the mics with a battery box or phantom power. Phantom power will give the best results. A pre-amp will 'color' the sound of the mics. That's why people prefer different combos of mics & pres to get different results. Not using a pre will give you a very transparent recording (no coloration to what the mics pic up). My power modules (AT 8531) and other power modules provide bass roll-off, but I have never found the need to use it (I always run them flat). For a stealthy rig, the AT853 > battery box > JB3 would work ok. Add a phantom power supply (instead of the battery box) & line transformers to get even better results. Every now and then I still have to boost the levels in post, even when using line transformers (but it's rare).
To clarify: If you use a pre, it will provide the phantom power to the mics.