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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: stvgray on September 25, 2005, 12:15:31 AM
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Looking for advice on mics here ...
I'm helping a friend assemble a rig for a specific purpose. He will be using it exclusively to record small chamber ensembles playing classical music -- usually violin, cello, piano, sometimes viola. (His wife is a pianist, and they run a small foundation that puts on these concerts.)
I use Neumann KM184s, and I like them a lot, but I use them for a variety of music, mostly amplified -- jazz, funk jazz, rock. I've used them for chamber ensembles, and they sound great, but they do tend to emphasize upper frequencies. This creates a very vivid recording, but the balance is definitely brighter than what I hear in the auditorium.
Can someone with experience with small classical ensembles in a nice, ambient space (a medium-sized church sanctuary with a high, peaked ceiling and a lovely-sounding mix of hard surfaces and wood) suggest a pair of mics that would be ideal?
Budget is somewhat elastic. I've mentioned Oktava MC-012s (I like mine) and used Neumann KM184s. He'd like to spend Oktava-type money, but he wants to gete something good, so I think I could get him to go up to maybe $700-$800. He's receptive to either used or new.
So -- what would you suggest?
All advice appreciated.
Steve
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I've been happy with TL's for these purposes.
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The tl's did me well for quite a while.
given that you're dealing with hard surfaces, floors, etc.... you might not ever get beyond accenting the higher freq's in that hall, just because of the very nature of all of the reflective surfaces.
Probably true, but I think of the 184s as being kind of toppish in overall balance. Am I wrong about that?
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royer ribbons
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for the $700/$800 budget?
maybe as a single mic downpayment.
oh yeah...::scratching head::..
how bout those oktava ribbons..
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I think a pair of Earthworks would be great for this purpose. They pick up strings with incredible clarity and would come in under 700-800$.
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I think a pair of Earthworks would be great for this purpose. They pick up strings with incredible clarity and would come in under 700-800$.
It depends. I've used my SR-77's for orchestras, however it really was the QTC-1's that shone in this environment. The 77's while nice in the mids and top end, still dropped a bit on the lower end.
Wayne
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I do almost exclusively classical music, from small chamber orchestras to symfony size.
Generally I tend to use omni microphones whenever possible, simply because I like the sound I get out of them. You have to place them a little closer than cardoids, and they can be a bit picky about room acoustics and it might take a bit more "ear" from the recording engineer. It is definitely worth it though.
For recording acoustic music, I can only recommend small diameter omnis. (Well, some of the really good large diameter mics can make really good recordings, but we are talking a different price level there).
- My current favourite pair is my DPA 4003-s which I am not going to suggest given the price. If you stumble over a pair of DPA4006 though, that is definitely a top-level mic (DPA was spun off from B&K, so B&4006 is the same mic).
- On a little more modest budget you might want to look at Sennheiser MKH20, used they tend to come in at a decent price in USA (new, the USA distributor adds way to much).
- In the Neumann series, KM183 are actually very nice, much better for this purpose than the KM184 which can tend to be a bit on the harsh side. You can make good recording with your 184, but you have to step back a bit from the source, and might still need to EQ a bit.
- Going still lower in price they tell me that the Russian Octava 012 is a good mic, never used it myself though, and the verdict is still out on the Chinese version (there are a number of lawsuits going on between the Russian company and what looks like thieves to me).
- I also have a pair of Studio Projects C4 that comes with both omni and cardoid mics, these are definitely useable, but if possible I would go for the KM 183 instead.
One of my friends swear to God that the best recordings he has ever done was with a pair of DPA4061. These are the ridicuosly small but very good. Maybe a tad on the high side as for self-noise, about the same as Earthworks omnis. For almost all uses this is not going to be a problem, but for very quite sources it can show itself.
There are a few other omnis you may want to look at, but I think they tend to come in at higher prices. Producers such as Microtech Gefell or Schoeps comes to my mind there. The Earthworks mics seems to be loved by quite a few people as well, no personal experience though.
As for mic technique I tend to use simple AB, placing the mics something between 1 and 3 feet from each others, typically around 1,5 feet. Best way to do this is to mount them on the same stand using a stereo rail. Then it is all about placing the mics in the room. A good stand really helps. Although omnis are less sensitive to vibrations, I always mount mine on shock mounts to be on the safe side.
All in all, in that price class I have been very happy with my Neumann KM183 pair.
Gunnar
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I was wondering why the dpa4060s weren't being discussed. i LOVE mine for classical. I'm finding lately though, that I prefer them W/OUT the high boost grid. It increases the air in the strings bowing and I just prefer to leave them w/ the stock grids. You will also be amazed at what 24bit will do for this type of music.
My vote (and the only pair of mics I have any experience with) is the 4060's. I would think that the 4061's would do better for louder sources.
Yeah, applause SUCKS. I'm always pleading w/ my tapirs to 'please don't applaud or shout bravo, no matter how much you want to! Oh, and please blow yer nose before putting on my taping glasses.' There is nothing MORE I hate than loud nose breathing when listening back to performance tapes. My last Tosca was blown by a buddy who taped me and I didn't realize he had a deviated septum. Jeez louise, these mics are dynamic! I just wish it wasn't of someone's nose whistling.
Sorry, that was T.M.I.
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almost all my work is chamber ensembles also. i have owned km184s, gefell m300s, schoeps cmc64s, DPA 4011s, DPA 4006s, DPA 4061s, AT 4051s, and AKG C481s, among many others. of those, i would say the km184s are the least well suited to this kind of work. any of the others i listed will work just fine. omnis are a little harder to place than cards, but give a more transparent diffuse sound which some follks love and some dont. cards and hypercards qill give you better definition in instrument location in the LR image. the 4011s are likely to be the best and easiest to setup of teh bunch, though perhaps out of your price range. the akg 481s are a very close second, and are almost indistinguishable from the 4011s. the 4006s and 4061s (both omnis) can be wonderful in the right situation, but generally need closer placement than cards to acheive the correct balance between performance and ambience. the 481s can often be had for under $1K for the pair used - defintely a best buy in my experience.
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If it's any help, I have a classical performance which was recorded w/two rigs side by side, so it can give you comparison on 2 setups. One was DPA4060>Core 2496>JB3, and the other was Sound Pros CMC8s>Reactive Pre>JB3. Beethoven 9, stealthed from about 3 rows back in a 900 or so seat theater (insert thank you to TenoRichards for his and his wife's efforts on my behalf!)
While the DPA's produced their usual gorgeous results, it was agreed that the CMC8s performed well, even in comparison to the typically spectacular sounds the 4060s get. The DPAs add an extra sparkle to the sound (I can only assume in my n00bness that they're emphasising a bit more of the higher frequencies - I'm sure somebody else can give you the more technical reasons for the difference in sound) while the CMC8s were a a bit flatter in colour. Not as flattering as the DPAs (which in some respects added something to the live sound), but nuthin' wrong with their performance at all. And they cost less than half as much ;)
Anyway, point here is if you want to hear side-by-side clips just to compare, I can send you some snippets. PM me if you're interested.
(edited to add: it's not a very good performance but the recordings aren't bad and show the differences in question)
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(insert thank you to TenoRichards for his and his wife's efforts on my behalf!)
He got his WIFE to help stealth an A/B comparison??? Hey THAT deserves a separate thread. +T to anyone who helps me figure out how to get that show on the road.
Jeff
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He got his WIFE to help stealth an A/B comparison???
Yep, they ROCK!! (It also was possibly the funniest gig EVER, but it kinda loses something in writing, so I'm not EVEN gonna try ..... I'll leave that to TR if he decides he wants to share!!!!! lol)
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He got his WIFE to help stealth an A/B comparison???
Yep, they ROCK!! (It also was possibly the funniest gig EVER, but it kinda loses something in writing, so I'm not EVEN gonna try ..... I'll leave that to TR if he decides he wants to share!!!!! lol)
Painting you a picture:
Imagine, Diva singing Beethoven 9 and the 2 of us, taping her w/ groucho marx glasses on. We're both wearing the mics on the glasses, w/ rigs in our laps. Of course, the glasses don't have the nose or the mustache, but, still, it gets Diva giggling because we look like effin' DORKS w/ the glasses on. Ok, ok, so I picked really OLD sunglasses w/out lenses in them for taping purposes. I'm SORRY! But from time to time, I can see Diva onstage stiffling a giggle because of the 2 of us sitting there w/ stealth glasses on. I guess it was a funny thing to see for her. I will have to make sure to update my glasses so I don't look like such a dweeb.
And WiFi, my wife is my principal tapir. (I tape for almost the sole express purpose of building an archive of my own perfs, so she's very accustomed to taping. She's a champ. She's taped much more than I have. The times I have taped, I realize just how stressful it is, trying to keep quiet, and doing the noiseless taper clap!)
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And WiFi, my wife is my principal tapir. (I tape for almost the sole express purpose of building an archive of my own perfs, so she's very accustomed to taping. She's a champ. She's taped much more than I have. The times I have taped, I realize just how stressful it is, trying to keep quiet, and doing the noiseless taper clap!)
I nominate her for this, it's like an Oscar:
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WifiJeff -
Ohhhhhh
Muhhhhhhhhhh
Guhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
That is HILARIOUS!!
Oh, and TR, it wasn't so much the DORK factor of hte glasses (well maybe just a little bit ;)) as it was the his-n-hers-ness of them combined with the highly intelligent, intent and serious listening-to-the-sermon looks on both your faces while the shenanigans were going on all around ..... Yanno... <snort> Oh hell, here I go - laughing at this YET again.... This concert ain't NEVER gonna give it up!!! LOLOL
[edited because my typing SUCKS today]
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I'll fluff AT853RXs for this job. (I know what's knew Dan?) But they were made for this purpose. Just check out a local church or theater. Of course, they would be at their best hanging from the ceiling over the ensemble.