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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: aberg on December 21, 2005, 06:03:30 PM

Title: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: aberg on December 21, 2005, 06:03:30 PM
see last post....
Title: Re: Neumann km184's on 15v phantom??
Post by: RebelRebel on December 21, 2005, 07:02:04 PM

Using any piece of equipment outside of its design envelope is asking for problems.
from Mastering Webboard:
E=IXR
Volts times amps equal watts. Drop the voltage, assuming wattage is constant, what happens to the amperage?

They may perform, but probably not anywhere near to spec...loss of sensitivity, degredation of SNR, etc.
Title: Re: Neumann km184's on 15v phantom??
Post by: aberg on December 21, 2005, 07:06:28 PM

Using any piece of equipment outside of its design envelope is asking for problems.
from Mastering Webboard:
E=IXR
Volts times amps equal watts. Drop the voltage, assuming wattage is constant, what happens to the amperage?

They may perform, but probably not anywhere near to spec...loss of sensitivity, degredation of SNR, etc.

That's what I figured. Good to know before the first real run.
Title: Re: Neumann km184's on 15v phantom??
Post by: RebelRebel on December 21, 2005, 07:27:04 PM
Oops, wrong formula.(not from me, I dont know jack about this stuff)

V = I x R

V = Voltage
I = Current
R = Resistance


(http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/Sample_Projects/Ohms_Law/circuit.GIF)
Title: Re: Neumann km184's on 15v phantom??
Post by: aberg on December 21, 2005, 07:46:08 PM
Actually, that formula is the same.. In electrical engineering, Voltage is often denoted by 'E', known as Electrical Potential, and the X was just the mulitiplication sign... so E=IXR is the same as V = I x R.

+t, though for the help!
Title: Re: Neumann km184's on 15v phantom??
Post by: RebelRebel on December 21, 2005, 07:49:07 PM
Actually, that formula is the same.. In electrical engineering, Voltage is often denoted by 'E', known as Electrical Potential, and the X was just the mulitiplication sign... so E=IXR is the same as V = I x R.

+t, though for the help!

No problem. I like taking questions to other places, it helps me learn a lot, which I need.

Title: Re: Neumann km184's on 15v phantom??
Post by: aberg on December 22, 2005, 03:33:05 PM
Speaking of these neumann's, I've noticed (and read that others also have noticed) that they are a fairly high-output mic, capable of overloading the input stage of some pre's... I've heard that some mp-2 users have had to turn the gain knobs all the way down, and still get a hot signal.

Before I run into these sorts of problems, I want to get some attenuators... is it worthwhile getting the switching ones with different attenuation settings? or if I was to get a pair with a fixed dB attenuation, what is a good amount? 10db, 20db?

Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: RebelRebel on December 22, 2005, 03:50:13 PM
I asked the same thing when I got my MK221s. I was told 10db would be adequate in most cases. Then again, my mixer  my recorder (and mics)  all have 10db Pads. Are km184s really that hot???I ran them once, didnt notice anything out of the ordinary, in terms of them being overly hot..

edit..they dont have pads , do they??maybe the 20db attenuators would be a good idea..or one with 10db and 20db..better to be safe than sorry. I hosed a recording a couple weeks ago because of overloading ...not subtle either...completly FUBAR. The SHURE ones were reccomended to me.

http://www.shure.com/accessories/a15as.asp
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: pigiron on December 22, 2005, 04:22:21 PM
For what it's worth:

The 184's were running kinda hot for me on both the mini-me and the 722, but each box allowed lowering the gain... so I did.

Just checked the mini-me docs and don't see a number, but the 722 specs say that setting it up for lower gain drops it 15dB (from 25-70dB to 10-55dB). Not a whole lot of hours on the 722 yet, but at that setting I seem to run the knob around half way at a rock show... give or take.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: aberg on December 22, 2005, 04:38:02 PM
For what it's worth:

The 184's were running kinda hot for me on both the mini-me and the 722, but each box allowed lowering the gain... so I did.

Just checked the mini-me docs and don't see a number, but the 722 specs say that setting it up for lower gain drops it 15dB (from 25-70dB to 10-55dB). Not a whole lot of hours on the 722 yet, but at that setting I seem to run the knob around half way at a rock show... give or take.

Hope this helps.


That's a good benchmark. I think the mp-2 has a gain range of 16-66db, so with a 15db attenuator, that will give 1-51db, which is probably ideal. I'll try and grab a pair of 15db attenuators.
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: aberg on January 03, 2006, 12:50:07 AM
Ran the 184's into the mp-2 the other night without attenuators (they haven't arrived yet). In a smallish club, FOB, I had to keep the gain set all the way down to its min. setting (which for the mp-2 is 16db)... that gave me perfect levels actually, but I might find myself in louder situations, so I'm glad I opted to get a set of attenuators, which should be arriving any day now.
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: Mike Sarnovsky on January 05, 2006, 07:59:53 AM
If you run a mod-sbm1 or something behind the mp-2, it's a VERY nice way to avoid attenuators and make your tapes sound even better!  I ran 184 ->mp-2 -> mod-sbm for YEARS and I was able to use the mod-sbm for level control while gain on the mp-2 was zero.  Worked perfectly!
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: aberg on January 07, 2006, 11:11:19 AM
If you run a mod-sbm1 or something behind the mp-2, it's a VERY nice way to avoid attenuators and make your tapes sound even better!  I ran 184 ->mp-2 -> mod-sbm for YEARS and I was able to use the mod-sbm for level control while gain on the mp-2 was zero.  Worked perfectly!

That's essentially what I was doing with the R-1... at this point, sbm1's are losing value so I don't see them as a good investment. I also don't require an external ADC unit as the internal ADC of the R-1 is great.
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: pigiron on January 08, 2006, 01:15:43 PM
so.... what'ca think about 184's?
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: Gordon on January 08, 2006, 02:15:35 PM
I ran mine last ngiht for the first time and am very happy.  as for running hot I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.  hell I think my 480's run hotter.
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: JasonSobel on January 08, 2006, 04:54:10 PM
Ran the 184's into the mp-2 the other night without attenuators (they haven't arrived yet). In a smallish club, FOB, I had to keep the gain set all the way down to its min. setting (which for the mp-2 is 16db)... that gave me perfect levels actually, but I might find myself in louder situations, so I'm glad I opted to get a set of attenuators, which should be arriving any day now.

on the MP-2, if you use the XLR outputs, you are correct that the min gain is 16 dB.  If you use the 1/8" output, the gain range is 10dB less, so the minimum gain is only 6dB.  if you get yourself a nice cable to use the 1/8" output, than you can probably avoid attenuators altogether.

check it out, on page 2:
http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/Manual_SoundDevicesMP-2.pdf (http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/Manual_SoundDevicesMP-2.pdf)
Title: Re: Neumann km184's and attenuation?
Post by: aberg on January 10, 2006, 05:48:31 PM
Ran the 184's into the mp-2 the other night without attenuators (they haven't arrived yet). In a smallish club, FOB, I had to keep the gain set all the way down to its min. setting (which for the mp-2 is 16db)... that gave me perfect levels actually, but I might find myself in louder situations, so I'm glad I opted to get a set of attenuators, which should be arriving any day now.

on the MP-2, if you use the XLR outputs, you are correct that the min gain is 16 dB.  If you use the 1/8" output, the gain range is 10dB less, so the minimum gain is only 6dB.  if you get yourself a nice cable to use the 1/8" output, than you can probably avoid attenuators altogether.

check it out, on page 2:
http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/Manual_SoundDevicesMP-2.pdf (http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/Manual_SoundDevicesMP-2.pdf)

That's actually what I was doing. I think attenuators are still a good thing to keep around.