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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: TeamJa on January 30, 2006, 04:56:27 PM
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first of all, i understand different mics have different tonal characteristics, but i'm in no position to upgrade right now. which brings me to my question. i feel my tapes generally lack bottom end. i've read that running the mics in DIN or ORTF vs. XY should add more bass, but are there any recommendations...
i use an akg stereo bar that has spacers on one of the arms so i can run DIN without the bodies hitting. since the mics are not on the same horizontal axis, would this be factor in bass loss? oh yah, my mics are ADK SC-T.
any help would be greatly appreciated...
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I am a big fan of ORTF and Spaced pairs(A-B). Have you tried those??What config do you mainly use that isnt satisfying you??I am not fond of XY myself, found it a bit thin the times I used it. Good for a bad room though..
I would try a spaced pair..Remember the 3-1 rule.. the distance between microphones should be at least three times the mic to source distance...
Take the configurations as a baseline from which to do your own experimentation.
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I would try a spaced pair..Remember the 3-1 rule.. the distance between microphones should be at least three times the mic to source distance...
For unampflied classical performances, maybe. For my distance from the PA (not far!) in most amplified rock & roll concerts that'd put my mics *outside* the venue in most cases! Not real practical for rock & roll concert taping.
Try ORTF and DIN and see if it helps. Sorry to say the real solution will be different mics. But for the time being, ORTF or DIN should help a little. The vertical distance between the mics shouldn't pose any bass-loss problems.
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thanks for the advice. looks like i need new mics... ;D
i do have omni caps. would a DIY j-disc help? might as well try.
thanks again.
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A few notes.
First, the 3-to-1 rule has absolutely no application here. Seems to be a common misconception. It is an old wife-s rule that has its usage, but in a quiite different situation. It goes as a good approximation when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sources. If you keep each mic close to its source and far from other mics you get less spill and less phase problems between the mics. In contrast, in a stereo setup the two mics becomes part of one mic, a bit large though, and they are used to record one source, also a bit large.
Cardoids behave in a specific way in the bass. Very close up you get a proximity effect where the bass gets stronger. This is used to good effect in close micing voices and instruments in a studio setting. Far away from the source the bass falls of. In contrast true pressure omni mics (not necessarily the switchable types) has no proximity effect and has the same bass response regardless of distance.
The effect is most often that an omni mic goes about an octave lower in bass response. There are omni that goes down to just a few hertz. In some cases this can translate into "more bass".
What you could try as a first try is to EQ the bass a bit. Add some bass boost in post-production (for example using some PC-based program, Audacity is free).
There could be other reasons why you loose the bass feeling. It might be down to the recorder you are using or to the listening environment. I have not used the mics you are mentioning so I cannot really comment on those, but I know that different mics do sound different.
Gunnar
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First, the 3-to-1 rule has absolutely no application here. Seems to be a common misconception. It is an old wife-s rule that has its usage, but in a quiite different situation. It goes as a good approximation when you use two mics to record two DIFFERENT sources. If you keep each mic close to its source and far from other mics you get less spill and less phase problems between the mics. In contrast, in a stereo setup the two mics becomes part of one mic, a bit large though, and they are used to record one source, also a bit large.
Gunnar
Id be interested to hear where you got that info, or if it is your own personal theory, if youve done any wavetank experiements, etc... Seems as though every single person I have asked(on the professional side of the spectrum), every book I read(new stereo soundbook, recording theory, etc) have never said ANYTHING about different sources. p.. Surely working, professional engineers with experience wouldnt keep reissuing this advice in publications, verbally, etc..if it were just "a wives rule??"I use this advice all the time, and it serves me well, even though I do a lot of work with "stereo pairs as one mic"....and because of the simple existence of this thing we call "acoustics" is there such a thing as "same source" when using two mics???isnt even a stereo pair two different sources, technically speaking???I have told (and repeatedly so) that the 3/1 is universal and can apply to mono , two mics recording two different instruments, or stereo pairs recording the same instrument..
At any rate, I think why it wouldnt work has nothing to do with the source material , but moreso is a matter of logistics....a rock concert is limited in real estate...and is rather limiting because of sheer numbers of people in the area. I tend to trust the wisdom passed down through the ages from those who have established themselves.
What you could try as a first try is to EQ the bass a bit. Add some bass boost in post-production (for example using some PC-based program, Audacity is free).
EQing practices , unless for your own personal consumption arent reccomended.If you are going to spread the source it is better to leave as is , UNLESS you have a good monitoring enviroment and adequate tools. For your own listening, sure, EQ the heck out of it. If you do touch it,tell that you did.
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If you are not using shock mounts, I would recommend them. I noticed an improved bass performance with my km184's when I started using them in a set of AT 8410's. Check with ADK for the right brand/style that works with your mics.
Chris
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and Ja..ive got some universal ones that will fit if you want them.
teddy
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i've been using the superlux shockmounts, which i know compared to other shock mounts, like the AT 8410, do not isolate very well. i contacted ADK and they don't make/sell shockmounts for small condenser mics... :(
teddy, pm sent
thanks again for advice
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I tend to trust the wisdom passed down through the ages from those who have established themselves.
6/23/02
Thank you Gunnar
:P
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maybe you could hear better if you cut your hair you dirty hippie ;D
i'll send you the 391s to run for a little while, you can compare to the adks and see what you think, PM me your addy again I may have lost it
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thanks terrapinj *as TeamJa cuts off beard and hair* ;)
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+t's to everyone who's helped....
woo hoo!
i've been waiting to do this for a long time
8)
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i've been waiting to do this for a long time
*as TeamJa cuts off beard and hair*
and all i ttook was this?
maybe you could hear better if you cut your hair you dirty hippie
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i've been waiting to do this for a long time
*as TeamJa cuts off beard and hair*
and all i ttook was this?
maybe you could hear better if you cut your hair you dirty hippie
he was referring to giving out Ts, the hippie joke is longstanding between us :)
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thanks for the advice. looks like i need new mics... ;D
i do have omni caps. would a DIY j-disc help? might as well try.
thanks again.
Yes, j-disc or otherwise baffled omnis will get you more bass than you get with cardiods. I sometimes run cardiods in the ORTF configuration and mix with baffled omnis to improve the bass response. The ORTF cardiods give a wide stereo image and the baffled omnis give the better bass response. The baffle I use is homemade and results in the same 17 cm spacing as the ORTF setup, so both sets of mics get the same delay between channels for off axis sounds. That way, your omnis don't mess up the stereo image produced by your ORTF cardiods when you mix the signals from both sets of mics. Also by using the same spacing for baffled omnis as you do for your ORTF mics, you don't get instruments that seem to move around, depending on what note they are playing. If you run straight baffled omnis, it's been my experience that the stereo image is not as wide as you get with ORTF cardiods.
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i've been waiting to do this for a long time
*as TeamJa cuts off beard and hair*
and all i ttook was this?
maybe you could hear better if you cut your hair you dirty hippie
he was referring to giving out Ts, the hippie joke is longstanding between us :)
just me being a smartass. forgot the sarcasm button :-)
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SparkE!
try tucking the mics tighter to the disc face,... it'll "widen" the sound out more for you.
this isn't speaking to your timing or phase issue of 4 mics mixed, but rather, as a solo stereo disc recording.
Yeah, thanks Moke, but the ones I'm running are actually set up like boundary mics, mounted flush with the surface of the baffle. I think that the issue is that the faces of the baffle point in directions that are only 110 degrees apart, rather than at 180 degrees apart like a jdisk. The whole idea was to create an ORTF-like signal that has some bass in it. I get a good bass signal, but there is less separation in the channels than on a jdisk setup because the faces of the baffle are both faced partially forward, not straight to the sides.
You are right that with a normal jdisk, you can widen the image by mounting the mics closer to the disk.