Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: mmmatt on February 14, 2006, 04:49:26 PM
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Hey All,
I want to try a 4-mic mix using a mic on each stack and a pair on center stage for an upcomming show. How far do you normally set up in front of the stack? I'm sure if you got real close you wouldn't get full range, but too far back and you don't get an upfront sound. I would like this to sound as much like a sbd + mic matrix as I can.
On a similar note what is typical spl for a large PA stack? Could a piar of mics rated at 130db spl even handle being 10' (or whatever) off of a large PA stack?
Matt
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matt, I essentially had the same questions myself. I'm thinking of recording a show by splitting the mics and placing them right in front of the stacks, but I'm afraid of overloading the mics in terms of SPL.
I know Bob Cogswell a taper from the San Fran area often does a 4 mic mix with two mics right on the PA mains and a stereo PZM on-stage. Those tapes usually sound very nice and "in your face." IMO his tapes sound different than a mic + sbd matrix, but still very good. Here are two samples of this setup from archive.org:
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=33089
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=32707
I haven't checked into the crown mics that he is using for the stacks yet, but I have a feeling he may be using them because they can handle high SPL.
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yep.... I just found some info on crown's website:
Maximum SPL for 3% THD: 151 dB with 48V
phantom, 142 dB with 12V phantom.
although now that I think about it isn't 3% THD is pretty high for that measurement. I though the measurement was usually taken as Max SPL for 1% THD. maybe I'm wrong about that???
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well, with loud, live music playing I don't think 3% would be all that noticable, but you don't know until you try. Biggest thing is making sure they don't clip. I'll check out thoes links. thanks and +T! I wonder how close though? I'm thinking of maybe hanging an 8' boom out over the stacks from behind.
Matt
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I don't know bob, but I'll PM a another taper who knows him and has seen his setup in person and see if he has any more info.
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Is it possible this approach might create some phasing issues...? The mics being somewhat in the same plane but on different sources...?
Its seems like the stack sound would corrupt the nice stage image...perhaps not...
The monitors are shooting sound one way - the stacks the other...
Just thinking out loud...
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This is Bob's setup...
Source: (On Stage) Crown SASS P-MK2 PZM + (FOH) Crown CM-700MP's > Shure FP42 > Sound Devices 744t
Stage mic: Crown SASS P Mk 2 stereo condenser PZM (pressure zone microphone).
House mics: Crown CM-700 cardioid condensers, one each on the PA mains.
He ususally puts his cardiods about a foot from each stack, and the pzm is usually right in the front/middle of the stage.. when he's taping Tea Leaf Green, he has the pzm near Josh Clark, who is center stage.
I'll shoot Bob and email and see if he wants to come on here to shed some more light for you guys. I have also been throwing the idea around with a friend of mine (Focker), and we may try this setup ourselves at a venue or two when TLG comes east in March.
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thanks for your help dueling.
+t
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Is it possible this approach might create some phasing issues...? The mics being somewhat in the same plane but on different sources...?
Its seems like the stack sound would corrupt the nice stage image...perhaps not...
The monitors are shooting sound one way - the stacks the other...
Just thinking out loud...
I'm thinking of this technique more for outdoor or bands with vocals where a typical stage tape doesn't cut it. yes the monitors are always an issue unless the engineer runs them out of phase, but I'm not sure how common a practice that is. In a perfect world you try to avoid the monitors when stage taping IMHO. Good point though. thanks deuling.
Matt
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Hello from a new member,
Graham Munda (Dueling) emailedme re. the topic of "stack taping" as he knows me and had seen my name mentioned in this forum. I don't .know if I have any light to shed
on the subject, but am happy to contribute, maybe on a specific question basis. In brief, I have been using 4 mics to make recordings since 1990. At all times, the bqackbone
of the mic selection has been the Crown SASS P PZM, a stereo condenser mic that can be powered either by 2 9 v. batteries or phantom. For the years between 1990 and
2002, I used battery power on both sets of mics, and used mostly low cost unidirectional mics sold by Radio Shack. In the early years or two, I had a pair of AKG 1000's that
were on loan until the owner, a taper who was taking a long break from recording, resumed taping and wanted them back. He was using them in a 2 mic recording style, not
4. I was rather surprised to discover that there was no audible difference in the recordings made with either. I used a passive, battery powered mixer, also sold by Radio Shack, during this whole period. What changed the micing style was a phone conversation I had with Crown Int'l. I had called to inquire about having my PZM tuned up after
over ten years of schlepping it around to concerts, and described my micing style to the tech I was talking to, and he said I should really consider their CM-700 cardioid mic
because, among other benefits, its SPL rating matched the demands of live concert recording such as I was doing. I had only to commit to phantom power as the CM-700s
were phantom power only. Thus, the Shure FP-42, a 4 into 2 channel mixer that phantom powers all 4 mics and can run on battery power. Mixing on the fly is something I
have many hundreds of recordings worth of experience with. I now record 4 discreet tracks and do my mixing after the fact. As to mic placement, 1 foot from a stack is
a little closer than I usually go, but between 2 and 3 feet is a normal distance. I look at the speaker and try to determine where the low-mid-high freq. zones are. I don't
look for much low freq. as I get that from the stage. Stereo imaging, and esspecially the concurrance of the PA and the stage imaging is very much a product of the FOH engineer when using this method, but that is no different than the concurrence issue when using a board feed; it's still the board operator who's in charge as to the signal
mirroring the stage image. Nowadays, I also quite a bit more frequently than before, will use the stage monitors instead of the PA when the PA is not accessible, mic-wise,
and I have 4 CM-700s which can be run thru the Shure (mixing on the fly again) to blend with the stage signal. This can be quite useful in a small room with a lot of signal
from the stage that isn't available to just a stage mic. These sources can include the vocals, any instrument that's plugged into the board but has no stage amp-type of source such as keys, sax, flute, etc. There is a New Monsoor recording from The Sweetwater, 12-2-05, on LMA that is a recent example of a 6 channel recording (where the
4 stage monitor sources are mixed down to 2 on the fly) one can listen to to check this micing strategy out. I never try to make just the PZM grab all the sound, monitors
included, as that would be a real trainwreck, phasing and crosstalk-wise. Recording I have heard with stage mics set on omni have never impressed me. I will be glad to respond to any specific questions if I can add from my experience to anyone's recording efforts. Best email to reach me is at sunauto@pacbell.net.
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Good to see you over here Bob.. +T
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thanks alot for the info Bob.
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thanks alot for the info Bob.
Thanks for stopping in Bob and helping with my questions. Stick around too! you may like it here! +T
Matt
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Quote:
<Thanks for stopping in Bob and helping with my questions. Stick around too! you may like it here! +T
Matt>
Glad to be here. I like to talk taper geek talk as much as the next taper, I'm sure.
I'd be interested in the results of anyone's efforts they'd care to share.
Bob C