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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: tapeworm48 on February 17, 2006, 12:00:37 AM
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is there something lost by running your levels lower while recording? or is it the same (almost) as running them low and adjusting it later to peak around -4dB?
to me it almost sounds like the recording loses a little bit of depth for shows that are recorded at low levels. and i dont see how post-processing can recreate something that wasnt captured in the first place. not to mention that boosting levels significantly may increase the noise floor as well.
are there other drawbacks that i am forgetting?
comments?
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is there something lost by running your levels lower while recording? or is it the same (almost) as running them low and adjusting it later to peak around -4dB?
to me it almost sounds like the recording loses a little bit of depth for shows that are recorded at low levels. and i dont see how post-processing can recreate something that wasnt captured in the first place. not to mention that boosting levels significantly may increase the noise floor as well.
are there other drawbacks that i am forgetting?
comments?
It depends on how low you're talking and the noise floor of your recording. The lower the recording level, the higher the noise floor relative to the music. If you have a noisy preamp and record at -20 db with the intent to normalize in post, you're going to hear a lot of white noise in the final recording. If you have a high end, low noise preamp and plan to run at -5 and boost it a couple db in post, it's going to be inaudible. Just keep in mind that whatever you add in post is adding to the noise floor as well as the music.
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I've got some curiousity about recording levels.
Is there anything wrong with, while live, running your levels so they peak at -1?
the way I figure, I'll either catch a winner or I'll end up with a stick of butter.
It was loud and in your face when it was live so why should it sound soft and polite when you play it back?
please bear in mind I just got into this. Maybe recordings are supposed to sound like theyre being overheard from someone else's headphones while you're playing the show on your home stereo.
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if you are recording amplified rock shows there is nothing wrong with recording at around -6DB. In fact I found that to be much better especially with my iriver since running to hot would overload the inputs. With the nature of amplified music you will not hear noise at all if you add 5-6 dB in post. Even more should not be a problem.
I rather run my levels lower and up them afterwards than have distortion on my recordings.
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i hit -1dB and most times 0 while recording. it's only been for a loud spike and never for a sustained amount of time. i never experienced any nasty clipping on playback. i am trying to weed myself off this habit while recording 24 bit, but it's tough to break this habit. i like to run HOT >:D
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thats what Im sayin TJ. I don't get distortion unless Im running a steady "over" on the levels. the last show I pulled had spikes that nearly hit 0 but never quite.
I guess I should ask, why is it the "norm" for so many to run so low?
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thats what Im sayin TJ. I don't get distortion unless Im running a steady "over" on the levels. the last show I pulled had spikes that nearly hit 0 but never quite.
I guess I should ask, why is it the "norm" for so many to run so low?
i think the theory is to leave yourself some "headroom," meaning you don't risk introducing any distortion or artifacts from clipping levels. then if you want to add some boost in post there is the option to either normalize or add gain. it is safer and probably won't introduce any noise with your standard rock show. i think most try to peak around -3dB with an average a little above -6dB.
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makes sense thanks.
like I said, Im n00b and there is quite possibly a whole aspect of taping that Im not understanding at this point.
with 24bit, is it more "sensitive"? is that why youre trying to tone it down a bit?
edit to add* if there are other tapers there, Im willing to risk wasting an evening of recording while going balls out orange (660) I was there and had a blast and know that I can re-listen to it from someones pull if mine ends up sounding like a fuzzy mess.
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Yea, for 16 bit you should run as hot as you can, to maximize dynamic range
Not necessary for 24 bit, as it's noise floor is much much lower, -144dB as opposed to -96dB. So you can run 24 bit lower and still achieve a good dynamic range
You can make your recording louder in post, which tricks people into thinking it sounds better, but you'll never gain more dynamic range
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I've noticed that when I run the levels conservatively or right at a steady -6, that when I play it back on a stereo there does seem to be something missing as far as seperation of instruments; like its just one piece of sound without all the colors or I guess they're called "dynamics". Thats exactly what I don't want and if I ended up with that, why would I raise the levels of it in post?
the only thing I do as far as post-edit is bump my left channel up a half db to match the right. If the waveform has clipping (except for one show, I admit) I keep it to myself and dont upload or torrent it. After feeling out the different settings on my mics and deck I feel very comfortable with how it rolls at this point.
For me to get anything to distort with the way I have things tweaked, I would have to be running well over 0
what you mentioned (nihilistic0) is exactly what I was hoping to hear but with an untrained ear and seeing lots of others running as minus as they do, I wasn't sure.
I'd give you +T but you seem fond of Phish tickets ;)
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soft clipping is ok, and it's probably not going to be audible
go rip a current cd and look at that waveform, you'll likely see it clipping all over the place. part of the 'louder sounds better' mentality
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So here was the problem last week, recording a band called Max Creek.
There was an additional drummer, and well, the snare drum was up too high.
Levels showing on the V3 - hitting one to two orange here and there, with an _occasional_ over registered (light on). Feeling that this was isolated only to this snare drum, I left it as is.
Resulting wav shows fairly conservative levels, but with the occasional overage spike, just from this one drum.
I feel that I could have recorded at higher levels and still came out OK.
Thoughts ?
/Ken
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So here was the problem last week, recording a band called Max Creek.
There was an additional drummer, and well, the snare drum was up too high.
Levels showing on the V3 - hitting one to two orange here and there, with an _occasional_ over registered (light on). Feeling that this was isolated only to this snare drum, I left it as is.
Resulting wav shows fairly conservative levels, but with the occasional overage spike, just from this one drum.
I feel that I could have recorded at higher levels and still came out OK.
Thoughts ?
/Ken
i definitely agree you could probably run your levels a little hotter. but i guess you have to ask yourself is it worth it? from your explanation, an extra 1 or 2dB really doesn't make up that much of a difference for a band like max creek. i know when i record a band like moe, the extra 1 or 2dB doesn't add anything. having said that, i'll still add it in post to reach 0.
about the V3: i have NEVER overloaded this thing yet. there have been times at a show after the first song i had to drop down a gain setting because it was HOT. i still NEVER experienced any distortion or artifacts in a recording due to hard clipping. my worry is this could vary depending on the playback system. i think you would have to REALLY push the V3 to experience any distortion.
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i dont see how post-processing can recreate something that wasnt captured in the first place.
That pretty much sums it up...
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I was experimenting with this a little the last couple of days.
I usually run a bit conservatively. Just because you can't hear distortion audibly doesn't mean it's not there and it does effect imaging characteristics of the recording.
What I've found is that the recording does sound better run a bit conservatively than one that has overs/clipping. The only way to hear this however is with enough amplification. If you get enough power behind a clean recording you'd be surprised how good it actually does sound. My problem is that I can't quite afford that much clean power (yet...) So for now a little post makes for a more listenable recording from casual or normal listening perspective... ie While doing things around the house, car, or portable use. Only for critical listening does the constriction of the soundstage bother me.
So I'm archiving for later and doing some production for now.
Got a chance to play with the Waves L3 Ultramaximizer the last couple of days. What a great tool in this regard!!
It's intelligent enough to limit the sound without destroying the music.
Case in Point my moe. Recording from this past weekend. The House of Blues was kind enough to let us set up in front of the board this year in the center, however they limit the height of the mice to just above the lip of the wall. The result is that the very low bass and kick drum get amplified in a sort of percussive chamber in the back floor area. The mics pick up more than a good bit of that from the position. The result is a very warm oversaturated low end with vocals and instruments more recessed as the engineer is mixing to sound that is higher up. The other issue is that in order to keep the levels in check you adjust for the over emphasized kick.
With the maximizer I was able to boost the overall level of the general sound by 5 dB while keeping a -.1 dB gap between the signal and overload.
The bad news is that you can hear a slight compression of the low end but the Good News?!?!...the mid range, instrumentation, and vocals all move forward in the mix and the music itself is more evident rather than so much of the room itself. Overall it makes an improvement in my mind for the Casual listening experience.
The AKG's and the WCM 660 are quiet enough not to introduce too much noise to the overall recording and since they're both natural to warm in timbre the result is still quite relaxed.
I'm excited to give it some more experimentation.
The tweaked results are getting loaded to the LMA now.
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i am with TJ
i like to run "hot" - peaks flicking the 0db light on
part of it is because i don't like to mess around after the fact
part because i have had and heard recording where you had to crack it and then of course you also hear the white noise more
i know its a risk and i try to lower it down some but its hard to break the habbit
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Here's the Post Production Results if anyone's interested.
http://www.archive.org/details/moe2007-03-10.akg483.flac16 (http://www.archive.org/details/moe2007-03-10.akg483.flac16)
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I just don't understand when folks say they are looking to make it most accurately represent how it sounded that night. Yet most of the tapes I hear are so boomy ya cant enjoy it or there so thin they are fatiguing to the ear.
If the engineer mixed a show that sounded anything like alot of the aud tapes most of them would be out of work.
The one that gets me the most is when folks take a SBD patch and then put it into circulation at about half the volume it was intended to be. I'm pretty sure that aint how Ben mixed it.
original that was seeded.
http://www.kctaper.com/levels_sample01.mp3 (http://www.kctaper.com/levels_sample01.mp3)
My interpretation.
http://www.kctaper.com/levels_sample02.mp3 (http://www.kctaper.com/levels_sample02.mp3)
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I had issues with too many lows until I decided to use the wonderful option on my C4's called the "bass rolloff". wow, what a difference.
running live with orange lights steady on the 660
this thread rocks +'s abound.
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averaged at around -3, peak just barely kisses 0, not post edit whatsoever (except to make the mp3 sample)
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If the engineer mixed a show that sounded anything like alot of the aud tapes most of them would be out of work.
Unfortunately... this simply isn't true.
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Im not sure what your monitoring with. But alot of tapes I hear (including the Moe) are not all that close to being a good representation of how it may have sounded that night. IMO...
If I mixed a live show that sounded like that Im betting I wouldn't be asked to mix again.
I think with all the cracked copies of Wavelab floating around out there if folks would just ask I know there is a few folks on this board who know how to use the plugins such as the Waves, Nomad, PSP and Timeworks plugins . I'm not saying you can polish a turd but we could make um sound a bit more realistic.
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I was just commenting that engineering position can really be a weak spot in many touring bands.
I agree that there are some poor recordings out there but I think there are equally as many poorly mixed performances.
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Most of the time I record in a loud bar where most of the folks come to talk then to enjoy the music. Lately, after I got the busman2+ mod done I have been rollin' the dice and running hot. After a few shows I have come to the conclusion I like my red light flickering for all the loudest parts and peaking at -3dB but sometimes hitting 0dB. The loud landscape seems to make for a better recording when the band is loud but if its a soloist or acoustic act at the same bar I will peak a -6dB.
Peace