Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Geoff16Fryer on May 11, 2006, 10:56:24 AM
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Hey guys i just had a quick question. The majority of the shows that i have taped and will be taping are of the paul green school of rock shows. its where they have kids perform concerts. anyway theres like 30+ kids in some of these shows and i know a lot of them want a copy of my recording. So heres my question. i told them that if they wanted a copy of the 2 shows bring me 6 blank cds. Yet there are some people who still want me to just send them a copy. I posted on there website that if someone wants a copy mail me the cds (basic B+p) yet there are still some that want me to just send them a copy. SO is it wrong to ask for a couple of bucks to cover the cost of the cds and shipping? im not trying to make any money on this at all and i dont want the people that want to hear the show not be able to. also uploading is not an option i thought about that and talked to some people and it just wouldnt work with the people who want copys of the show.
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if it's the kids in the band, i'd just send them a copy for free. if it's other people, i would just charge them postage.
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I posted on there website that if someone wants a copy mail me the cds (basic B+p) yet there are still some that want me to just send them a copy.
And it's not just the kids that want a copy...I taped a School of Rock All-Stars show in Baltimore w/ Adrian Belew and I had more parents than kids wanting a copy. Granted I made the show available at etree, but I offered to B&P the show as well...and I had several people write with counter offers. I just ignored them or, if I was feeling kind that day, I let 'em know that this is the only deal I'm offering.
SO is it wrong to ask for a couple of bucks to cover the cost of the cds and shipping?
Yeah, it is wrong...
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if it's the kids in the band, i'd just send them a copy for free. if it's other people, i would just charge them postage.
I think that's asking too much of the taper...there are ALOT of kids in these shows as they rotate on and off the stage. When I tape PFunk, I send a copy to a couple of people in the band, but not everyone gets a copy (if they want it, they can make a copy from their buddies). I think you should send a free copy to Paul Green at the Philly address....
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like 2-3 bucks to cover shipping, bubble mailer, and cd's?
I dont see what the problem is.
It looks like you're dealing with people who aren't into trading and all thta jazz. Since your primary clintelle isn't going for b&p's, it would probably be much less of a hassle to go with what a lot of them want to do
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Figure out what the blanks cost x the number of blanks needed + cost of the mailer + postage cost = what you could charge them. I'd spell it out that way too, everybody know there is no profit being made.
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like 2-3 bucks to cover shipping, bubble mailer, and cd's?
I dont see what the problem is.
It looks like you're dealing with people who aren't into trading and all thta jazz. Since your primary clintelle isn't going for b&p's, it would probably be much less of a hassle to go with what a lot of them want to do
I think a lot of people see it as a problem because you're taking money for tapes, no matter how you slice it. If they give you postage and blanks then you're not taking anything you can re-use for monetary gain... you're just getting some stamps and some blank cds. It gets into murky waters when money start changing hands for any reason.
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Yea, but I dont like making things a black and white issue. Theres room for some grey area, especially in situations like this
This guy is clearly not trying to make any money, and Id imagine he would want to get this stuff out to these people with minimum hassle
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I would make the show available to anyone who wants it for free the first week or so.
After that, I'd probably make the person do a B&P... By then I've cleared off the HD of the show and I've moved onto other projects.
Also, if its the band, I'd give them free copies. Or in the case of this band, where there are dozens of people involved, I would send a copy to the music director and tell everyone to bug that person.
I agree that it is wrong to ask for money for a show (even if its only for B&P), but I'm also of the opinion that I'm not going to give away all my CDRs just because they supposedly have no monetary value.
Most of my frrends that are can't/don't/won't do a B&P from me, I get them to pay me back by buying me a beer later...
Terry
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torrent it or send out a few copies for free as you would for any other band (i hope) to key people who everyone is likely in contact with and when people continue to contact you either refer them to someone who has a copy or to the torrent.
even if you aren't making a profit, it can come off that way to some. if you've sent copies to some and then try to charge for costs for others you will start to get gripes about being unfair etc. i highly doubt most of the kids and their parents are gonna understand the dynamics of a B&P trade.
my .02
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I would make the show available to anyone who wants it for free the first week or so.
After that, I'd probably make the person do a B&P... By then I've cleared off the HD of the show and I've moved onto other projects.
Also, if its the band, I'd give them free copies. Or in the case of this band, where there are dozens of people involved, I would send a copy to the music director and tell everyone to bug that person.
I agree that it is wrong to ask for money for a show (even if its only for B&P), but I'm also of the opinion that I'm not going to give away all my CDRs just because they supposedly have no monetary value.
Most of my frrends that are can't/don't/won't do a B&P from me, I get them to pay me back by buying me a beer later...
Terry
I like the beer idea.
Richard
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Terry came up with a good idea. Just have them mail you a six pack of beer in return for the show
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oh- my god!!! is it really that big of a fuckin deal to take money for shipping/postage???? i mean come on, unless someone is willing to drive god only knows how long to come and pick up a cd personally,is the shipper supposed to eat the loss for the postage?? it seems that nobody really gives a shit about the recoding being copied and circulated freely,but as soon as someone mentions money for any reason the red flags go up.b+p is really the way to go with non-trades,but if its not possible i see no problem at all with accepting money for postage/shipping.i dont (unlike some people) worry myself with passing off the image of being politically correct.(lets all not forget about the roots of this hobby in the first place)
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oh- my god!!! is it really that big of a fuckin deal to take money for shipping/postage???? i mean come on, unless someone is willing to drive god only knows how long to come and pick up a cd personally,is the shipper supposed to eat the loss for the postage?? it seems that nobody really gives a shit about the recoding being copied and circulated freely,but as soon as someone mentions money for any reason the red flags go up.b+p is really the way to go with non-trades,but if its not possible i see no problem at all with accepting money for postage/shipping.i dont (unlike some people) worry myself with passing off the image of being politically correct.(lets all not forget about the roots of this hobby in the first place)
Oh yeah, you can accept herbal products as well as beer. I usually leave the car at home for a show if I expect to be giving out CDs. That way I can accept any treats provided by CD recipients :)
Richard
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oh- my god!!! is it really that big of a fuckin deal to take money for shipping/postage???? i mean come on, unless someone is willing to drive god only knows how long to come and pick up a cd personally,is the shipper supposed to eat the loss for the postage?? it seems that nobody really gives a shit about the recoding being copied and circulated freely,but as soon as someone mentions money for any reason the red flags go up.b+p is really the way to go with non-trades,but if its not possible i see no problem at all with accepting money for postage/shipping.i dont (unlike some people) worry myself with passing off the image of being politically correct.(lets all not forget about the roots of this hobby in the first place)
'Political correctness'? ??? (If I had a dime for every time someone mis-used that term...)
It's about the bigger picture, musicians' perceptions of tapers and trading, mitigating the risk involved with pursuing the money-for-CDs model. Sure, the people with whom I'm engaged in the blanks/postage money for discs transaction may know that I'm not making a profit on the deal. But then they tell a friend, or the sound guy at the next show, or posts on the band's messageboard that they "bought" the recording (neglecting to mention the actual cost, etc.). Or they turns around and sell copies of the discs to someone else - but decide to ask for $5 instead of $2 because they doesn't fundamentally understand the musician/taper/fan sharing model.
And then...perception hits. All of a sudden it gets back to the band that someone is "selling" their live recordings. The band may not freak, but then again they might. And they may tell their musician buddies about the asshole taper selling their shows. And one or more bands may change their recording policy as a result. All of a sudden, no more live recordings for the band (or the next band, or the one after that, etc.).
It may sound a bit Chicken Little-ish, but it's a very real possibility (and unfortunately, well...reality). It's happened before, and it will happen again. Reducing the risk of negative consequences due to selling CDs (even if only for cost of blanks/postage) is -very- easy: don't sell CDs for money. It's also -very- easy simply to send someone blanks and postage.
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oh- my god!!! is it really that big of a fuckin deal to take money for shipping/postage???? i mean come on, unless someone is willing to drive god only knows how long to come and pick up a cd personally,is the shipper supposed to eat the loss for the postage?? it seems that nobody really gives a shit about the recoding being copied and circulated freely,but as soon as someone mentions money for any reason the red flags go up.b+p is really the way to go with non-trades,but if its not possible i see no problem at all with accepting money for postage/shipping.i dont (unlike some people) worry myself with passing off the image of being politically correct.(lets all not forget about the roots of this hobby in the first place)
'Political correctness'? ??? (If I had a dime for every time someone mis-used that term...)
It's about the bigger picture, musicians' perceptions of tapers and trading, mitigating the risk involved with pursuing the money-for-CDs model. Sure, the people with whom I'm engaged in the blanks/postage money for discs transaction may know that I'm not making a profit on the deal. But then they tell a friend, or the sound guy at the next show, or posts on the band's messageboard that they "bought" the recording (neglecting to mention the actual cost, etc.). Or they turns around and sell copies of the discs to someone else - but decide to ask for $5 instead of $2 because they doesn't fundamentally understand the musician/taper/fan sharing model.
And then...perception hits. All of a sudden it gets back to the band that someone is "selling" their live recordings. The band may not freak, but then again they might. And they may tell their musician buddies about the asshole taper selling their shows. And one or more bands may change their recording policy as a result. All of a sudden, no more live recordings for the band (or the next band, or the one after that, etc.).
It may sound a bit Chicken Little-ish, but it's a very real possibility (and unfortunately, well...reality). It's happened before, and it will happen again. Reducing the risk of negative consequences due to selling CDs (even if only for cost of blanks/postage) is -very- easy: don't sell CDs for money. It's also -very- easy simply to send someone blanks and postage.
i agree(d) that is better to send blanks.but your're statements are based on this....money is sent to someone to pay for media/postage and shipping.somehow,someway this gets back "band x",as someone is selling their shows.they then retract any open taping poilices.thsi is possible and has happened before.this scenario is based on "band x" getting incorrect information.incorrect information is part of the "real world/big picture" and it is never going to go away.
another part of the "real world/big picture" is this... if you are in a band,out playing some shows eventually,sometime,somewhere someone is GOING to make a tape,and probably circulate it.there is really nothing that can be done about this.
now,if someone wanted a show from me,and couldnt for whatever reason couldnt send blanks,am i going to not accept money for the postage and media when I KNOW i am not selling the "show"?? should i not do something that really isnt wrong in itself just because someone else might not get the facts about the arrangement,and have a problem with a situation that isnt even the case to begin with. i dont think so. if i went around conducting( and not doing anything wrong) myself worrying about what everyone else might or might not think i would have a pretty boring life.
i mean if this is the case,then every single stealth taper should be wiped off of this forum because their actions might get back to a band who will retract policies. ya' know.
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incorrect information is part of the "real world/big picture" and it is never going to go away.
This is true. But I believe we should try to minimize the volume, impact of, and/or actions contributing to those scenarios - especially when a very small action may have a disproportionate impact.
another part of the "real world/big picture" is this... if you are in a band,out playing some shows eventually,sometime,somewhere someone is GOING to make a tape,and probably circulate it.there is really nothing that can be done about this.
True enough. But that's beside the point.
now,if someone wanted a show from me,and couldnt for whatever reason couldnt send blanks
There really is no reason someone could not send blanks. They may not want to, but I'd venture to say anyone in a position to receive them could very easily send them if they wished. It seems a small price to pay, and not terribly difficult on the part of the recipient. My take is that if someone is unwilling to send blanks & postage, then they're not really very interested in the music after all.
if i went around conducting( and not doing anything wrong) myself worrying about what everyone else might or might not think i would have a pretty boring life.
Thinking about the big picture and/or taking reasonable (and at that, very small) steps to mitigate risk need not be boring.
i mean if this is the case,then every single stealth taper should be wiped off of this forum because their actions might get back to a band who will retract policies. ya' know.
Stealthers tape bands because they already have retracted, or never had in the first place, open taping policies. Not sure what your point is here. ???
Anyway...doubt we'll agree on this one. I think someone previously hit on the best solution: send a single set of copies to a central point of contact and have the various band members get their copies from him/her.
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If I was a kid doing a school of rock show I would want a copy... this is a big deal to a kid who has never been taped and may never be again! I wish I had copies of all of my shows (I only have 3) from when I was a kid... I miss those days terribly!
On the other hand... if I was taping a show and I thought I was going to get 20-30 requests for copies I wouldn't tape it. That is a PITA and is not a resaonable request of a taper IMO. Burning, packing, and lableing 30 copies of a cd is work and I already have a job! Things like that make taping a lot less enjoyable. It is supposed to be enjoyable for us...
I would suggest talking to the promoter about it, then working with www.dsbd.net or disclogic and see if they would be willing to distribute the recordings. Propose it as a "not for profit" type of thing, and have the distributor set the fee based on their costs to distribute and no money to band, promoter, or taper. It is for KIDS for goodness sake!!! Who wouldn't want to be a "proud supporter" of school of rock and attract people to their d/l site? This way the recordings are most accessable and nobody is making money for taping them, just for distributing them which is a PITA for a taper. I'm sure the kids and their parents would happily pay $5 - 6 to get it shipped to their door in a pretty case! I would find no moral dilema in this and I don't think it goes against taping ethics... post your recordings on the web and if they don't want to d/l for free they can pay someone a reasonable fee to do it. I'm sure the archive would be happy to host a collection for d/l...
There is a big differance between making money and simply not loosing money...
Matt
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On the other hand... if I was taping a show and I thought I was going to get 20-30 requests for copies I wouldn't tape it. That is a PITA and is not a resaonable request of a taper IMO. Burning, packing, and lableing 30 copies of a cd is work and I already have a job! Things like that make taping a lot less enjoyable. It is supposed to be enjoyable for us...
Please tell me I'm misreading this...you'd pre-emptively not tape a show based on how many people might want it afterwards? Just because someone makes a request of you doesn't mean you have to grant it. I've had dozens of people talk to me at some shows, and only end up having two or three actually follow through. Put the burden of legwork and grunt work on those who actually want the shows, and it'll reach a happy equilibrium quickly.
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incorrect information is part of the "real world/big picture" and it is never going to go away.
This is true. But I believe we should try to minimize the volume, impact of, and/or actions contributing to those scenarios - especially when a very small action may have a disproportionate impact.
another part of the "real world/big picture" is this... if you are in a band,out playing some shows eventually,sometime,somewhere someone is GOING to make a tape,and probably circulate it.there is really nothing that can be done about this.
True enough. But that's beside the point.
now,if someone wanted a show from me,and couldnt for whatever reason couldnt send blanks
There really is no reason someone could not send blanks. They may not want to, but I'd venture to say anyone in a position to receive them could very easily send them if they wished. It seems a small price to pay, and not terribly difficult on the part of the recipient. My take is that if someone is unwilling to send blanks & postage, then they're not really very interested in the music after all.
if i went around conducting( and not doing anything wrong) myself worrying about what everyone else might or might not think i would have a pretty boring life.
Thinking about the big picture and/or taking reasonable (and at that, very small) steps to mitigate risk need not be boring.
i mean if this is the case,then every single stealth taper should be wiped off of this forum because their actions might get back to a band who will retract policies. ya' know.
Stealthers tape bands because they already have retracted, or never had in the first place, open taping policies. Not sure what your point is here. ???
i guess the point was...you said any small steps to avoid these situations of retracting policies,well it seems to me that the primary reason for stealthing is because taping certain shows isnt allowed to begin with.well,alot of the stealth tapes are the sources of bootlegs,and since thats the case,a "small step" would be to be less tolerant of stealthers chatting,trading,whatever on this forum.that would possibly stop some band from retracting policies in the future. not that i want this to happen, i am a stealther ;)
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On the other hand... if I was taping a show and I thought I was going to get 20-30 requests for copies I wouldn't tape it. That is a PITA and is not a resaonable request of a taper IMO. Burning, packing, and lableing 30 copies of a cd is work and I already have a job! Things like that make taping a lot less enjoyable. It is supposed to be enjoyable for us...
Please tell me I'm misreading this...you'd pre-emptively not tape a show based on how many people might want it afterwards? Just because someone makes a request of you doesn't mean you have to grant it. I've had dozens of people talk to me at some shows, and only end up having two or three actually follow through. Put the burden of legwork and grunt work on those who actually want the shows, and it'll reach a happy equilibrium quickly.
Well... yes. I don't mind sending out a couple of copies, but when the requests get overwhelming I don't like it. I know myself though, and I would WANT to send everyone who wanted it a copy, but ultimately I would never get around to it if there were that many. Sending to one person to distribute won't get people the copies. Just another person getting a barage of requests and getting frustrated over it.
Matt
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just send 1 copy to the director and be done with it