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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: morningdew on May 23, 2006, 01:00:17 PM
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I've got a show coming up and was planning to run a matrix using my UA-5 bm2p+ mod. I have cardoid mics, a set of 50' cables and a 15' set of cables. I was going to run the 50' to my mics on stage. Set my gear near the board and run my 15' set of cables to the board. Then the band sends me this in an email....
We're paying a guy to run sound for us and he's got a 8 or 16 track
pro tools setup that he's going to record our show with also. So you
might not have to run a line to the board. We could just mix the pro
tools recording down, give it to you and then you could mix your
matrix from that.
Which way would you do it? I want the best sound over anything else and I'm guessing mixing it in post is the smart thing to do, right?
I was looking forward to trying a matrix on the fly but it can wait for another time. I'd rather have quality.
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I've got a show coming up and was planning to run a matrix using my UA-5 bm2p+ mod. I have cardoid mics, a set of 50' cables and a 15' set of cables. I was going to run the 50' to my mics on stage. Set my gear near the board and run my 15' set of cables to the board. Then the band sends me this in an email....
We're paying a guy to run sound for us and he's got a 8 or 16 track
pro tools setup that he's going to record our show with also. So you
might not have to run a line to the board. We could just mix the pro
tools recording down, give it to you and then you could mix your
matrix from that.
Which way would you do it? I want the best sound over anything else and I'm guessing mixing it in post is the smart thing to do, right?
I was looking forward to trying a matrix on the fly but it can wait for another time. I'd rather have quality.
Do it anyway just like you've planned, for the experience and as a backup to the multitrack.
Ideally, the multitrack recording should have at least one ambient in the mix anyway, for crowd and room sound.
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Delay 1ms per foot
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Explain please....
The mics will be stage lip. I thought delay issues occurred when mics were away from the stage simply because sound travels much much slower than electrons. No?
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I've got a show coming up and was planning to run a matrix using my UA-5 bm2p+ mod. I have cardoid mics, a set of 50' cables and a 15' set of cables. I was going to run the 50' to my mics on stage. Set my gear near the board and run my 15' set of cables to the board. Then the band sends me this in an email....
We're paying a guy to run sound for us and he's got a 8 or 16 track
pro tools setup that he's going to record our show with also. So you
might not have to run a line to the board. We could just mix the pro
tools recording down, give it to you and then you could mix your
matrix from that.
Which way would you do it? I want the best sound over anything else and I'm guessing mixing it in post is the smart thing to do, right?
I was looking forward to trying a matrix on the fly but it can wait for another time. I'd rather have quality.
Do it anyway just like you've planned, for the experience and as a backup to the multitrack.
Ideally, the multitrack recording should have at least one ambient in the mix anyway, for crowd and room sound.
I agree with this. If the band is intending on you adding your ambient track to the multi, then you are sol for a matrix because you can't send a mic only feed through the UA5. If not then I would do the matrix yourself. Depending on the type of band, you may have a lot better chance of making a quality recording with 4 track mixdown than 8... 8 tracks doen;t do too much for most bands. If they are willing to give you their multi files to play wiht, go for that too. That is good experience as well!
The key to a matrix, is knowing what each source is lacking and finding another source that makes up for thoes defiencies. In the case of a typical rock show at a typical small club, you will not be getting much of the amplfied/loud instruments (electric guitar, bass and drums) in the sbd mix. The sound coming from ths stage is already so loud that the PA doesn't have to amplify them much. This is why most small-venue sbd tapes sound like Ass! Stage micing is pretty easy to mix into a matrix in the field because all you have to do is get a good mix of vox (prevolant in the sbd feed) and instruments (prevolant from the stage mics). Then in post if you need to, you can adjust bass and other little tweeks with simple eq and make a nice recording out of it. Stage mics is best because of the delay factor as John stated. You can point at the band (best if they use instrument amplifiers on stage) or put omni's on the outside stage corners (best for bands that use no amplifiers on stage, or any band at a large venue) and point at the audience for ambiance and crowd reaction.
As for how to do it? You have to develop your skills like anything else, but I usually tell people who are starting out to resist the urge to retweak your mix every few minutes... "set it & forget it" is usually best. I try to give myself the first song to screw around with levels and then after that I just let her go unless a source is peaking.
Matt
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I've got a show coming up and was planning to run a matrix using my UA-5 bm2p+ mod. I have cardoid mics, a set of 50' cables and a 15' set of cables. I was going to run the 50' to my mics on stage. Set my gear near the board and run my 15' set of cables to the board. Then the band sends me this in an email....
We're paying a guy to run sound for us and he's got a 8 or 16 track
pro tools setup that he's going to record our show with also. So you
might not have to run a line to the board. We could just mix the pro
tools recording down, give it to you and then you could mix your
matrix from that.
Which way would you do it? I want the best sound over anything else and I'm guessing mixing it in post is the smart thing to do, right?
I was looking forward to trying a matrix on the fly but it can wait for another time. I'd rather have quality.
Suggestions. Try to work independent of the paid guy (and stay out of his way)
How to do a Matrix:
- run your mics at, or on the stage
- a second set of inputs (to the RCA on the back of the UA5) from the soundboard. Bring a variety of connectors for the board,
but the best is if you just take "tape out" or "record out" from RCA jacks on the board.
If the mics are far from the speakers you need to delay the soundboard to match the mics. That is what 1ms per foot means. For mics close or on stage, they should line up close enough (eg., <= 10ms, 10ft should be fine). If you have a long delay, you'll need to record four tracks and line them up in post production. That is why everyone buys those R4s!
How to set levels? Bring in-ear monitors or something that is loud for monitoring. Turn up the RCA input on the back first, so it is there, but peaking at a low level, say -12dB. Then bring up the mics to get the rest. This is a *guessing game* unless you can hear clearly on the monitors. I sometimes run a long headphone cord outside or around a corner so I can hear what is in the mix.
Have fun!
Richard
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I read too fast. Didn't realize you were planting on stage. Good rule of thumb any way (1ms delay per foot away from source). I did a stage plant mixed with the board 2 weeks ago with no delay probs at all. Have fun.
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Do it anyway just like you've planned, for the experience and as a backup to the multitrack.
Ideally, the multitrack recording should have at least one ambient in the mix anyway, for crowd and room sound.
TNJazz is absolutely correct.
The guy with the pro tools rig is also going to be running sound (i.e., he may be overtasked to get the recording right because he needs to first focus on mixing at the show). A band I archive for hired a guy to bring a 24 track pro tools rig out once. I still ran my UA-5 matrix as normal just as you're planning. Drunks spilled beer on his computer (a desktop?) and bumped into it all night. He also foolishly set up on a rolling case on casters directly in line with the house subs and used nothing for vibration/shock absorption. In the end he got nothing; the vibrations from the sub and the folks bumping into his computer prevented his harddrive from writing consistently, and he had cable/connection issues as well by the end of the night. I ended up with the only recording that night.
Now, he was a studio engineer and pretty clueless when trying to record in a situation where he could not control all the variables (especially the crowd). If the engineer the band hired has a lot of experience running live sound and/or field recording, he'll probably do OK, but you should always run a back up source.
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If he is running 16 tracks out from his console to a protools rack, I would make sure he has a set of outputs to even give you. Most live sound boards can not do more then 16 outs. Depending on how he is getting them. I would see if you can get the sound guys # and give him a call if you can. If not then be prepared to do it any way you can. From the protools or from a separate output the board feed does have to be delayed back to where the sound board is.
It has nothing to do with electrons :_) its like this the sound board feed is from the mics on stage no delay what so ever. The mics are delayed because they are picking up the house. You have to calculate the delay from the soundboard to your mics if your mics are 50' feet away from the soundboard then you need to add 50ms aprox to the board feed in order to sync them up with the output of the live mics you are using. Remember the Time reference is your mics because they are the thing that is already delayed do to the fact that there is already a distance between them and the main PA system. Some people say to delay the live mixer feed to the main stacks this is not correct.
You have to delay to your mics. But not to the main PA system. PS.... you can do this later on when you mix down the matrix if you are using more then a two track recorder. Simple rule: Console is always at 0ms mics are always at the ms in feet @ 1ms per foot from the main live console. Aprox!
Things like temperature humidity and air density affect the actual amount of delay you will need.
I would also caution you if he wants to give you a protools output feed to your sub mixer that you will get the propagational delay of the protools interface you will need to know the latency of his sound card in order to calculate the total delay time so it would then be distance from mics to main live console + sound card latency of the feed your getting if it is not directly from the live sound board. Even if it is a monitor out from the sound card there is still latency because of the DA converter. I hope this helps
Chris Church
Explain please....
The mics will be stage lip. I thought delay issues occurred when mics were away from the stage simply because sound travels much much slower than electrons. No?
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If he is running 16 tracks out from his console to a protools rack, I would make sure he has a set of outputs to even give you. Most live sound boards can not do more then 16 outs. Depending on how he is getting them. I would see if you can get the sound guys # and give him a call if you can. If not then be prepared to do it any way you can. From the protools or from a separate output the board feed does have to be delayed back to where the sound board is.
It has nothing to do with electrons :_) its like this the sound board feed is from the mics on stage no delay what so ever. The mics are delayed because they are picking up the house. You have to calculate the delay from the soundboard to your mics if your mics are 50' feet away from the soundboard then you need to add 50ms aprox to the board feed in order to sync them up with the output of the live mics you are using. Remember the Time reference is your mics because they are the thing that is already delayed do to the fact that there is already a distance between them and the main PA system. Some people say to delay the live mixer feed to the main stacks this is not correct.
You have to delay to your mics. But not to the main PA system. PS.... you can do this later on when you mix down the matrix if you are using more then a two track recorder. Simple rule: Console is always at 0ms mics are always at the ms in feet @ 1ms per foot from the main live console. Aprox!
Things like temperature humidity and air density affect the actual amount of delay you will need.
I would also caution you if he wants to give you a protools output feed to your sub mixer that you will get the propagational delay of the protools interface you will need to know the latency of his sound card in order to calculate the total delay time so it would then be distance from mics to main live console + sound card latency of the feed your getting if it is not directly from the live sound board. Even if it is a monitor out from the sound card there is still latency because of the DA converter. I hope this helps
Chris Church
Explain please....
The mics will be stage lip. I thought delay issues occurred when mics were away from the stage simply because sound travels much much slower than electrons. No?
Don't worry about the delay issue. You are on stage so no big deal. If for some reason he has the ability to live mix from his protools rig (I doubt this is what he intends) and that feed is what he is wanting to give you, try to get just a straight board feed. For a board feed with stereo mics on stage, a mono feed isn't bad if that is all you can get (split it to both sides of the UA5 though so it pans center). The image from the stage mics is plenty of soundstage in most cases. You can easily vary 25 ms without being detrimental, so latency from his rig should not be much of a factor either. There are differances in sound with each step of delay, but no rules as to which is ultimately best in every situation.
Matt
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O.k. thanks guys. I think I got.
I'll run my matrix via. the UA-5. Great tips on how to do it. I have the ear monitors covered, etc.
I'll just grab "record out" or "tape out" from the soundboard it doesn't matter what it is, XLR, 1/4" or RCA I have all the connectors to make it mate to my female XLRs.
The only hang up I see right now is I wasn't expecting a mono feed. I hope I can get both L and R because I don't have any type of splitter.
Also, I have an in with band so it won't be him telling me what I can or can't have it will be the band telling him "Give that guy the L and R RCA tape out" I'm assumming it comes in both L and R right?
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Most boards will have either a 1/4" or XLR main or matrix out, which is the ideal feed to take if there is no tape out. I have rarely run into the mono 1/4" only situation. If there are no RCA tape outs from the board, the open question will be: is the engineer who is multi-tracking using all available matrix/bus outputs from the board or is he taking the direct outs from each channel?
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Exactly :)
Most boards will have either a 1/4" or XLR main or matrix out, which is the ideal feed to take if there is no tape out. I have rarely run into the mono 1/4" only situation. If there are no RCA tape outs from the board, the open question will be: is the engineer who is multi-tracking using all available matrix/bus outputs from the board or is he taking the direct outs from each channel?
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Got it.
To clarify, when you say Most boards will have either a 1/4" or XLR main or matrix out, which is the ideal feed to take if there is no tape out.
On these "most boards" I'm assumming this will be both L AND R whether it be XLR or 1/4", correct? i.e. if there is XLR matrix out there will be two male XLRs coming out of the board. One labeled right and one label left, correct?
Also you said "if there is no tape out."
So in order of priority I should choose.
1. Tape or record out (same thing?)...again I'm assumming this will be two outputs (one for L and one for R)
2. XLR main or matrix out.
3. So if he is using all the matrix/bus outputs and there are no RCA tape outs am I out of options?
I apologize for all the clarification but I just want to come armed with some solid knowledge and provide them with a quality matrix or aud. This band always guest lists me +1, puts ALL my drinks on the bands tab and just recently has offered me backstage passes to a small festival drawing some fairly big (but old) names.
Thanks.
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Got it.
To clarify, when you say Most boards will have either a 1/4" or XLR main or matrix out, which is the ideal feed to take if there is no tape out.
On these "most boards" I'm assumming this will be both L AND R whether it be XLR or 1/4", correct? i.e. if there is XLR matrix out there will be two male XLRs coming out of the board. One labeled right and one label left, correct?
Also you said "if there is no tape out."
So in order of priority I should choose.
1. Tape or record out (same thing?)...again I'm assumming this will be two outputs (one for L and one for R)
2. XLR main or matrix out.
3. So if he is using all the matrix/bus outputs and there are no RCA tape outs am I out of options?
I apologize for all the clarification but I just want to come armed with some solid knowledge and provide them with a quality matrix or aud. This band always guest lists me +1, puts ALL my drinks on the bands tab and just recently has offered me backstage passes to a small festival drawing some fairly big (but old) names.
Thanks.
+t for being close to the band.
Just let me reiterate: you should make sure that you let the hired guy do his job and not get in the way too much. The band (and their manager, if any) will appreciate it when things run smoothly. Anyway, I'm sure you can pull this off, and maybe you'll even get a nicer tape than the hired guy! A lot of these guys mess so much with the mix they forget to capture the crowd and general ambience of the room.
Richard
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heres how i do it... i take from 2 - 4 recording devices + mics... one will be off the board and the others will be mics around wherever i want. It will all be recorded seperately, then when i get home, i get all the sources into my computer and use cubase/protools/DP or whatever to mix them all together correctly, EQing each mix as i go to be able to come out with the best final mix.
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Got it.
To clarify, when you say Most boards will have either a 1/4" or XLR main or matrix out, which is the ideal feed to take if there is no tape out.
On these "most boards" I'm assumming this will be both L AND R whether it be XLR or 1/4", correct? i.e. if there is XLR matrix out there will be two male XLRs coming out of the board. One labeled right and one label left, correct?
Also you said "if there is no tape out."
So in order of priority I should choose.
1. Tape or record out (same thing?)...again I'm assumming this will be two outputs (one for L and one for R)
2. XLR main or matrix out.
3. So if he is using all the matrix/bus outputs and there are no RCA tape outs am I out of options?
I apologize for all the clarification but I just want to come armed with some solid knowledge and provide them with a quality matrix or aud. This band always guest lists me +1, puts ALL my drinks on the bands tab and just recently has offered me backstage passes to a small festival drawing some fairly big (but old) names.
Thanks.
Main outs will generally be a pair of pan-able mono outputs labeled left/right that are already being sent the same mix controlled by the board's master fader. Matrix outs will generally be numbered but not specifically assigned any particular feed or "left" or "right" pan settings. The engineer will make those assignments (i.e., sending the house feed to two of the matrix out mono outputs and setting the pan knobs), which will feed to either a pair of male XLR or female 1/4" connections. With a tape out, the assignments are all pretty much set except for gain which is usually only one knob for both L/R if the board has tape outs. For that reason alone, I always prefer the matrix outs for more control in the event that the relative gain of the left and right channels of the PA mix are imbalanced due to an asymetric room.
If he is using all the matrix/bus outs and there is no tape out, there is still the possibility of him patching the feed through to a couple open channels (if there are any) on the board. I would guess that he will be using some combination of direct and matrix/bus outs if he is running 8-16 tracks, because that is usually not enough channels to catch every input discreetly for most bands (drum kits alone could have as many as 16 inputs if it is a huge kit and everything is being mic'ed). A 8-16 track mix in this case will probably have at least the drums grouped to two matrix/bus outs (stereo) and if the band has more than two vocals, their inputs are also likely to be grouped to one (mono) or two (stereo) of the matrix/bus outs.
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Awesome reply easy jim +t. That really helps and I think ends all my questions.
This is just a garage band, total low dollar stuff so I'm guessing this set-up won't be too elaborate so I'm sure I'll have plenty of outs to choose. I'm fairly certain they didn't hire some sound engineer with a major set-up. They do have great potential and are really catching on so I guess anything is possible, especially if it's being done partly as a "favor". I think they are really good but sloppy as hell. Some serious time together and they have some fantastic potential.
I'll see when I get there.
Thanks, again.
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Awesome reply easy jim +t. That really helps and I think ends all my questions.
This is just a garage band, total low dollar stuff so I'm guessing this set-up won't be too elaborate so I'm sure I'll have plenty of outs to choose. I'm fairly certain they didn't hire some sound engineer with a major set-up. They do have great potential and are really catching on so I guess anything is possible, especially if it's being done partly as a "favor". I think they are really good but sloppy as hell. Some serious time together and they have some fantastic potential.
I'll see when I get there.
Thanks, again.
No problem, and good luck. I guess you hit on one of the reasons other than free promo that bands benefit from having tapers around: being able to hear themselves, learn, and improve.
happy taping