Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: Lhmwrench on May 30, 2006, 04:53:54 PM
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...the game...Somewhat...
My D-6 died last week (go ahead and laugh, I still do but it served my needs well...no cd player in my vehicle and instant gratification) and I'm lookin' for a new toy. Minidisc, mini-cassette, Sony, DAT, IRiver, Marantz...lost reading reviews...
I'd like something I can record my band and load up to the pc and burn cd's...
Something I can hook my audio technicas into and record Ratdog/Abb/Mule, etc...
I really appreciate any input...a pal @ Tooboard.net referred me...
Thanks...
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if you dont need digital-in or higher res than 16/48, I highly recommend the Marantz PMD660 w/ the ACM mod by Doug Oade.
All said and done with a 4GB card, you're looking at $850 at the most.
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$850 at the most
LOL ;)
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how much you lookin to spend?
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Up to 5 bills...
Any more and the wife may chop off the old..ah, forget it...it'll bring back memories for her of being forgotten in the taper's pit at the old boston Garden...
Anyway, Marantz are very tempting...
That Sony you have windorabug, happy w/it?
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how much you lookin to spend?
#1 question here. We have FAR too much fun spending other people's money (because we have none of our own left...) ;D
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you may want to look into an Edirol R-1 or the newly released R-09. you'd be right around the 500 mark after getting some compact flash cards.
units are small for low-pro/stealth situations as well.
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http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SONY-MZ-RH1
that is what I would buy.
BTW, i am happy with my recorder. Cheap and gets the job done.
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Yeah, classic situation here: What's mine is hers and what's hers is hers... 8)
Thanks, lemme check these out...
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No problems loading mic recorded tunes onto a pc w/that Sony?
That is the biggest complaint within the on-line product reviews...
Now for the Edirols...
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No problems loading mic recorded tunes onto a pc w/that Sony?
That problem is old and has been addressed with the newer versions of Sonic Stage
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Hey THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!
You guys are Grate... ;)
Clarson on Tooboard was right...
I think I'll give that SONY-MZ-RH1 a shot...
Now, which free mic? Omnidirectional or cardioid stereo?
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I've got a stock UA-5 and a JB3 package for sale in the Yard if you're interested.
stock UA-5 here (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65168.0)
JB3 package here (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65369.0)
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http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SONY-MZ-RH1
that is what I would buy.
BTW, i am happy with my recorder. Cheap and gets the job done.
The new one is nice, but if you want something even cheaper, go with MZH-800. I think that is $168 at minidisc-canada.com. The Canadian prices are a bit cheaper for MD I've found. This one has a single AA battery, and has both mic and line input. Really solid unit, and no special batteries to worry about. I've gotten over 6hrs recording on a single 2500mAh NiMH battery!
Richard
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cheap and impossible easier to transfer to pc: iriver :)
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Even though it appears you've made up your mind, Lhmwrench, I'm going to second the vote to go for an iriver h120. You can score one off ebay for under 2 bills, and no media or batteries to purchase. And no software to use to get the recording onto your computer. Very easy setup to use, and very compact.
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cheap and impossible easier to transfer to pc: iriver :)
Transfer to PC is pretty easy. Sonicstage over the USB port.
I am in no way supporting Sony's repressive tactics in the past, and still holding over now in many ways. But the fact is, Minidisc has the nicest interface and solid analog circuitry (preamp, line in) on these units. Oh yeah, and long battery life (6-8 hours on a single AA 2500mAh battery). They really are marvels of modern engineering as far as I'm concerned.
I think Edirol R09 may overtake MD if the mic and line are as good as we expect.
Richard
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I'm going to second the vote to go for an iriver h120. You can score one off ebay for under 2 bills, and no media or batteries to purchase. And no software to use to get the recording onto your computer. Very easy setup to use, and very compact.
Wasn't too long ago that any post asking for recorder advice would get, at least, one recommendation for the NJB3...why the lost love for the JB3? I love mine!
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why the lost love for the JB3?
1, they do not make it anymore.
2, the ADC is poor
3. No mic pre
4. No support or firmware updates
5. The iriver is very similar to the jb3
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yeah, Richard, I know about the MD advantages too :) actually I was hesitating before get the H120 between it and a Hi-MD :) they are solid, stealhty, not expensive and with a nice interface, I agree...but the media matter decided me (and also the look and can store 20-40GB on it...and rockbox!)...and now I couldn't be happier with my toy :D
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Thanks anyway thegreatgumbino but I'm gonna stick w/new...
Choice narrowed down to the SONY-MZ-RH1 and the Sony MZ-M100...
The latter'll win cause I'll need it for a Sat. gig...
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lol, :love: I LOVE my jb3
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Oh yeah, I forgot to add that every review of the IRivers TRASHED the product...to the letter...so...
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What he said... but I think that analog is only available at 44.1 unless I am missing something. Also was able to get 2 recorders (one plus a back up) at less than $100 each
on ebay.
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why the lost love for the JB3?
1, they do not make it anymore.
2, the ADC is poor
3. No mic pre
4. No support or firmware updates
5. The iriver is very similar to the jb3
windorabug, i am not arguing with you but i would like to point out that several of your stated reasons apply to the iriver. ;D if i'm not mistaken, it has the same ADC chip as the JB3. the H120/H140 are no longer made (and have not been in production for "at least one year" according to iriver when i called them a couple weeks ago).
as for firmware updates, i don't think that's a "necessary" thing so long as there is a stable firmware. for instance, i contacted Edirol late last year regarding any future firmware upgrades for the R-1, and they said the firmware was stable so there would be no further development for that product. not a huge deal, but it does seem reasonable that if a product has stable firmware - why upgrade/change it?
raoulduke - question: you say the iriver "has mic and line inputs, with the ability to add or subtract gain"... i might be going blind, but i only see one input (Line In / optical in) on the iriver. what did you mean by "mic input?"
also, according to latest reports, the iriver cannot do 16/48 kHz. just stating that so no one is mislead.
oh, and i still agree with raoulduke, i.e. no media costs and no battery costs really can save money. with the battery upgrade i performed, i can get over 12 hours of recording per charge up, and since i never tape festivals, this is more than ample for my needs of maximum 4 to 5 hours of recording in a single day.
now, poorlyconditioned (or anyone who can answer it) - i have a question about the newer MD units. when you refer to SonicStage and USB for transferring, is the transfer in "real time"? or is it more like 3 minutes for a 2 hour (~1.3 GB) recording? (that's how long it takes to upload from my iriver to my HDD... so i'm purely interested in knowing this info for knowledge's sake.)
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now, poorlyconditioned (or anyone who can answer it) - i have a question about the newer MD units. when you refer to SonicStage and USB for transferring, is the transfer in "real time"? or is it more like 3 minutes for a 2 hour (~1.3 GB) recording? (that's how long it takes to upload from my iriver to my HDD... so i'm purely interested in knowing this info for knowledge's sake.)
The newer HiMD units use USB to upload. It is reasonable, but not super fast like the NJB3 firewire! I would say about 3 or 4 times real time for PCM and about 10 times real time for ATRAC. But pretty solid.
I'm glad to hear the iRiver optical is stable. I might get one. But what about the analog in? Is there any hard drive noise like the NJB3? Is there *real* analog gain? Finally, how good is the ADC? I'm inclined to think MD is better, but you never know.
As far as batteries go, I'm tempted to just get an external battery pack to augment the built in one in the iRiver. I do that with the NJB3 now.
Richard
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The newer HiMD units use USB to upload. It is reasonable, but not super fast like the NJB3 firewire! I would say about 3 or 4 times real time for PCM and about 10 times real time for ATRAC. But pretty solid.
I'm glad to hear the iRiver optical is stable. I might get one. But what about the analog in? Is there any hard drive noise like the NJB3? Is there *real* analog gain? Finally, how good is the ADC? I'm inclined to think MD is better, but you never know.
As far as batteries go, I'm tempted to just get an external battery pack to augment the built in one in the iRiver. I do that with the NJB3 now.
Richard
Thanks for that reply, Richard! That is very adequate transfer time for the MD with Sonic Stage software.
While using the rockbox firmware, it says it has up to 24 dB of <analog> gain and any gain above that is augmented by <digital> gain. And in fact, there is an (A) while you're within the analog gain beside the dB amount of gain; and should you need to use digital gain and you add set the levels at higher than 24.0 dB, then a (D) will appear beside the gain amount.
One nice thing that isn't mentioned often about the iriver, IMO, is that you can set the gain for each channel individually. True, not often "needed," but say you aren't centered or mic sensitivity is a few dB difference... now you can set each channel individually.
I have listened to several recordings I've made with the iriver, in headphones, and I cannot hear HDD noise. FWIW, the only shows I've taped with the iriver have been fairly loud... so I have yet to test it with more quiet, acousitc (amplified or unamplified) music, but I'll get there.
IMO, the ADC of the iriver is decent. Yes, there is better out there. I ran the iriver head to head against the Edirol R-1 (which many people around here agree sounds very good), and thanks to china_rider for hosting (?) the sample:
http://www.aztapers.org/Test_iriver_vs_R1.flacf.zip
It's a .ZIP file with two FLAC files (total size = approximately 60 MB). I did not label which source is the Edirol R-1 and which source is the iriver. But I will happily tell anyone the answers via PM. I'd be interested in knowing what the so-called "golden ears" think of the comparison. [Note: certainly not my best recording, but the point is that it's a head to head, blind comparison between the ADC chips in the two units.]
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Thanks for that reply, Richard! That is very adequate transfer time for the MD with Sonic Stage software.
While using the rockbox firmware, it says it has up to 24 dB of <analog> gain and any gain above that is augmented by <digital> gain. And in fact, there is an (A) while you're within the analog gain beside the dB amount of gain; and should you need to use digital gain and you add set the levels at higher than 24.0 dB, then a (D) will appear beside the gain amount.
One nice thing that isn't mentioned often about the iriver, IMO, is that you can set the gain for each channel individually. True, not often "needed," but say you aren't centered or mic sensitivity is a few dB difference... now you can set each channel individually.
I have listened to several recordings I've made with the iriver, in headphones, and I cannot hear HDD noise. FWIW, the only shows I've taped with the iriver have been fairly loud... so I have yet to test it with more quiet, acousitc (amplified or unamplified) music, but I'll get there.
IMO, the ADC of the iriver is decent. Yes, there is better out there. I ran the iriver head to head against the Edirol R-1 (which many people around here agree sounds very good), and thanks to china_rider for hosting (?) the sample:
http://www.aztapers.org/Test_iriver_vs_R1.flacf.zip
It's a .ZIP file with two FLAC files (total size = approximately 60 MB). I did not label which source is the Edirol R-1 and which source is the iriver. But I will happily tell anyone the answers via PM. I'd be interested in knowing what the so-called "golden ears" think of the comparison. [Note: certainly not my best recording, but the point is that it's a head to head, blind comparison between the ADC chips in the two units.]
Hey thanks hyper! I'll download that and take a listen. We need more of this, comparisons and analysis. It is too easy to spout off on stuff we have not tested/confirmed. Myself included :)
Richard
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concerning mic in-line in: go to "recording", "recording settings", then to "source" and there you can choose in advance mic, line, or digital :) (and all plugging in the same hole)
the HD noise...mmm...I had a little problem when I got mine and I heard some noise (while saving data), but now seems to be fixed, I don't hear nothing in the recordings.
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I have listened to several recordings I've made with the iriver, in headphones, and I cannot hear HDD noise. FWIW, the only shows I've taped with the iriver have been fairly loud... so I have yet to test it with more quiet, acousitc (amplified or unamplified) music, but I'll get there.
I taped mmw at a small hall (kinda like a church) back in April. It's stunning. Lemme know if you would like a copy.
edit: as for HDD noise, I recall reading it was there when using iriver's firmware when recording. I imagine this was corrected with rockbox since I haven't heard any HDD noise when listening back to some tapes. I'll post some samples tonight of recordings I've made with my iriver.
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...................... But what about the analog in? Is there any hard drive noise like the NJB3?.....................
UPDATE:
I just ran some tests with and without the remote control. During my tests, I found that there IS hard drive noise (without the remote control plugged up)... at 24 dB of gain (maximum analog gain on the iriver), the maximum RMS value reported by Adobe Audition is -63.71 dB (left) / -64.7 dB (right). Now, obviously, that was too low of a level during a loud concert for me to hear the noise. I'm not sure how, or IF, this will affect recording for more quiet shows..................
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...................... But what about the analog in? Is there any hard drive noise like the NJB3?.....................
UPDATE:
I just ran some tests with and without the remote control. During my tests, I found that there IS hard drive noise (without the remote control plugged up)... at 24 dB of gain (maximum analog gain on the iriver), the maximum RMS value reported by Adobe Audition is -63.71 dB (left) / -64.7 dB (right). Now, obviously, that was too low of a level during a loud concert for me to hear the noise. I'm not sure how, or IF, this will affect recording for more quiet shows..................
Thanks for the tests... and all your iRiver updates in general.
I'm not surprised. I've taken apart the NJB3 and that hard drive is awful close to the analog circuits. And it is all running off the same battery. It is hard to imagine perfect isolation.
I'm psyched to try the iRiver, not for analog, but for digital capture though. Much smaller than the NJB3 and great battery life.
Richard
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Thanks for the tests... and all your iRiver updates in general.
I'm not surprised. I've taken apart the NJB3 and that hard drive is awful close to the analog circuits. And it is all running off the same battery. It is hard to imagine perfect isolation.
I'm psyched to try the iRiver, not for analog, but for digital capture though. Much smaller than the NJB3 and great battery life.
Richard
Quite welcome, Richard. ;D
Now for the $20 question: are there any potential hacks/remedies to help isolate the analog circuitry from HDD noise?
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Thanks for the tests... and all your iRiver updates in general.
I'm not surprised. I've taken apart the NJB3 and that hard drive is awful close to the analog circuits. And it is all running off the same battery. It is hard to imagine perfect isolation.
I'm psyched to try the iRiver, not for analog, but for digital capture though. Much smaller than the NJB3 and great battery life.
Richard
Quite welcome, Richard. ;D
Now for the $20 question: are there any potential hacks/remedies to help isolate the analog circuitry from HDD noise?
I don't think there are any obvious hacks. The only thing I can think of is the obvious: distance (between hard drive and analog part), shielding (around analog part), and separate power supplies. None of these are practical in a portable unit. Well, it would be nice to see what Sound Devices or Edirol do in their units. Anyone care to take theirs apart and inform us :). No? I don't blame you...
Richard
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Thanks for the tests... and all your iRiver updates in general.
I'm not surprised. I've taken apart the NJB3 and that hard drive is awful close to the analog circuits. And it is all running off the same battery. It is hard to imagine perfect isolation.
I'm psyched to try the iRiver, not for analog, but for digital capture though. Much smaller than the NJB3 and great battery life.
Richard
Quite welcome, Richard. ;D
Now for the $20 question: are there any potential hacks/remedies to help isolate the analog circuitry from HDD noise?
I don't think there are any obvious hacks. The only thing I can think of is the obvious: distance (between hard drive and analog part), shielding (around analog part), and separate power supplies. None of these are practical in a portable unit. Well, it would be nice to see what Sound Devices or Edirol do in their units. Anyone care to take theirs apart and inform us :). No? I don't blame you...
Richard
scott posted some internal pics of his 722, i think there are some others floating around as well...
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=36009.msg459006#msg459006 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=36009.msg459006#msg459006)
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Thanks for the tests... and all your iRiver updates in general.
I'm not surprised. I've taken apart the NJB3 and that hard drive is awful close to the analog circuits. And it is all running off the same battery. It is hard to imagine perfect isolation.
I'm psyched to try the iRiver, not for analog, but for digital capture though. Much smaller than the NJB3 and great battery life.
Richard
Quite welcome, Richard. ;D
Now for the $20 question: are there any potential hacks/remedies to help isolate the analog circuitry from HDD noise?
I don't think there are any obvious hacks. The only thing I can think of is the obvious: distance (between hard drive and analog part), shielding (around analog part), and separate power supplies. None of these are practical in a portable unit. Well, it would be nice to see what Sound Devices or Edirol do in their units. Anyone care to take theirs apart and inform us :). No? I don't blame you...
Richard
scott posted some internal pics of his 722, i think there are some others floating around as well...
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=36009.msg459006#msg459006 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=36009.msg459006#msg459006)
Hey, so there are brave people here! I would be scared to take mine apart. I really see how small that is based on the drive inside. Wow!
Richard
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i believe scott replaced the HD right away with an 80G - im scared to take mine out of my gear bag let along pry it open ;D
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I don't think there are any obvious hacks. The only thing I can think of is the obvious: distance (between hard drive and analog part), shielding (around analog part), and separate power supplies. None of these are practical in a portable unit. Well, it would be nice to see what Sound Devices or Edirol do in their units. Anyone care to take theirs apart and inform us :). No? I don't blame you...
Richard
Ahhhh... when I had an R-1 (yep, it's sold and an R-09 is on pre-order), I did open it up a couple of times, but never could manage to get clear photos. (Time for a new camera for sure.)
Anyway, interestingly, the R-1 has some type of a thin metal (?) "flap" (for lack of a better word) in between the LCD display and the circuit board. I imagine that's to shield the circuitry from any LCD-generated noise, e.g. when the backlight comes on. However, I have NO clue what the "flap" is made of... but it's fairly pliable yet it has the properties to be able to be bent/shaped and stay in that position. Almost like aluminum foil, but thicker...
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Here's a sample from the Medeski, Martin & Wood show I taped. Here's some txt file info:
Medeski, Martin & Wood
The Concert Hall at the New York Society for Ethical Culture
April 6, 2006
New York, NY
Taping rig: dpa4061>dpa mma6000>iRiver H140 (16/44 wav)
Conversion: iRiver H140>usb>Computer>cd wav to split track
I was sitting on the left side of the concert hall, about 15 feet from center. My mics were pointing at a PA stack that was sitting on top of the far left stage pointing right at me. I was about 10 feet away from the stage seated, the mics were clipped to my glasses by my ears. I stood as still as a statue for this show. Fortunately, the person sitting in front of me was slumped in his seat and didn't obscure my view nor the recording.
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Larson was right...lurk and learn...thanks again everyone..