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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Charlie Miller on July 18, 2006, 10:17:51 PM
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I have a pair of cmc6/mk4's and was thinking of getting some other caps. Does anyone have any input on the schoeps sub-card caps? Or are there any other brands of sub-cards you would reccomend??
cm
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I've used the 21 caps many times and have been very happy. It also compliments the 4 cap well, cause you can go on stage or up close with a 21....then use the 4 cap as you go farther back from the source.
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have the 21s and the 41s, with an 8 for shits and giggles.
serious, i love the flexibility the 21s allow for : on-stage, or way up front.
match that with another 2ch (i.e. midside) you have a classic mix.
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I would be using the 21's on-stage to add to the multitrack mixes. I was wondering if they would be too boomy or low-end heavy when added to the mix???? Maybe somebody will be at a show I am working and will have some 21's we can play with :)
I'd actually like to run them on stage next to my mk4's for comparison...
cm
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Well you get the best of both worlds with the 21's...I think Schoeps sums it up nicely....
"The basic idea in designing this capsule was to combine the advantages of the cardioid with those of the omni. This results in a pickup pattern which blends the two sets of characteristics in a useful manner. It has fuller and more extended low-frequency response than a cardioid, with less proximity effect, while attenuating side- and rear-incident sound less than a cardioid."
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Love my MK21s! If you're ever in Chicago, we'll arrange to meet up so you can run 'em. I like the MK21s on stage a lot.
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the 21's NOS are the only schoeps I like ;D
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While taping SKB in Chicago (2002 - back when we still allowed folks to run on stage), I let someone clamp onto my stand. He had 21's and I had 4's. At set break, we switched caps so we can hear the difference. I have no idea what I did with the recordings. I probably deleted the stage recordings since I also ran a sbd/mk4 matrix recording...not my smartest move....cm
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not the best example but not bad ;)
http://www.archive.org/details/smt2006-03-24.flac16 (http://www.archive.org/details/smt2006-03-24.flac16)
Stanton Moore Trio
03/24/06
Stella Blue
Asheville, NC
source: schoeps cmc6xt/mk21 (NOS) > Lunatec V3 @ 44.1khz > Nomad Jukebox 3
location: fob,dfc hung from the ceiling in the sweet spot
transfer: JB3 > firewire > nomad explorer > wavelab 5.01b > cd wave > flac level 6
taped by Gordon Wilson, William Boswell, Joe Waldron, & Jim Pollock
transferred by Gordon Wilson
Stanton-drums
Will Bernard-guitar
Dr. Lonnie Smith-organ
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I would be using the 21's on-stage to add to the multitrack mixes.
if you want to hear some onstage mk21's, check out a few of Scott's Club d'Elf recordings...
http://www.archive.org/details/delf2006-03-29.flac16 (http://www.archive.org/details/delf2006-03-29.flac16)
http://www.archive.org/details/delf2005-08-10.flac16 (http://www.archive.org/details/delf2005-08-10.flac16)
http://www.archive.org/details/clubdelf2005-10-27.mk21.v3.flac16 (http://www.archive.org/details/clubdelf2005-10-27.mk21.v3.flac16)
http://www.archive.org/details/delf2005-09-08.flac16 (http://www.archive.org/details/delf2005-09-08.flac16)
those are just a few, there are plenty more.
and as others have stated, the schoeps sub-cards are great. go for it! :)
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I have run a 21H as part of a M/S Rig and absolutely love it.
CQBert
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I think the 21 is probably the best sounding cap that schoeps makes. It's good close up in something like 110 xy, and also damn good for outdoor work from the sweet spot NOS.
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charlie, check these out. these were all kimock onstage recordings with mk21s.
http://www.archive.org/details/skb2001-04-29.shnf
http://www.archive.org/details/skb2001-04-27.shnf
http://www.archive.org/details/skb2001-04-28-mk21.shnf
are mk21s heavier in the low end than the 4s? yes, but i doubt it'd be boomy at all, since they'd be onstage. it's not like you'd be picking up more boom from the room or anything. i think you might find them to have a more natural-sounding image and probably just some more punch.
i own the dpa cards and subcards and i absolutely love the subcards. the wider pickup can make it sound much more natural...kind of like having the open sound of an omni with the clarity and punch of a cardioid
i'd lend you the dpas for a show or 2, but i know that's no help since you're looking for the schoeps. i'm sure someone here can help you out at a show sometime soon.
(but if you do want to borrow/hear the dpas, let me know)
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also, did i read correctly somewhere that MMW's "Tonic" album was made with just a pair of mk21s on stage?
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I actually have the skb mk21 discs from chicago. I think I'll play them today.
+t to all for your input....
thanks folks...cm
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yeah the 21's are great if you like metallic mids and highs.. ;D :P
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I use the 21Hs a lot, really like them.
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Here is a good loud Rock show where there 21's shine if you are bittorrent capable...
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=27189&edited=1
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also, did i read correctly somewhere that MMW's "Tonic" album was made with just a pair of mk21s on stage?
mmw's archivist Bill Mulvey runs mk21s onstage, so that is quite possible
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also, did i read correctly somewhere that MMW's "Tonic" album was made with just a pair of mk21s on stage?
mmw's archivist Bill Mulvey runs mk21s onstage, so that is quite possible
Does anyone know how to contact Bill Mulvey? We let him put his mk21's on stage at the 8/11/02 skb show. I would love to hear how his mk21's sounded at that show since his stand was right next to mine......cm
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i'll pm you his email address
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Charlie fwiw the band Soulive runs them for their on-stage recordings, if that's any indication of their application
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Thanks. This place really is great.
BTW, Scott Brown, haven't seen you in quite a while. How ya been??
cm
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Charlie fwiw the band Soulive runs them for their on-stage recordings, if that's any indication of their application
;) ;) nudge nudge, say no more......
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Charlie fwiw the band Soulive runs them for their on-stage recordings, if that's any indication of their application
;) ;) nudge nudge, say no more......
i think the mk21's would REALLY shine onstage,. ive heard some of scott gordons run onstage and FOB and some of jon merin's as well, and i think that cap is pretty hard to beat in the right spot w/ minimal chatter
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it is a killer sounding capsule, indeed.
i haven't heard many sub card recordings from any mic that was bad. but honestly, i would not use them w/the ORTF holder that you typicaly run. XY baby!!
coincident is where its at.
Charles...
fwiw, see if you can get your hands on some Peluso sub cards. I think you'll like what you hear and what they cost.
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why would you throw an essentially non-directional mic up in a configuration that depends on the level/intensity differences of directional mics?? Youd essentially be stuck with a mono recording..
it is a killer sounding capsule, indeed.
i haven't heard many sub card recordings from any mic that was bad. but honestly, i would not use them w/the ORTF holder that you typicaly run. XY baby!!
coincident is where its at.
Charles...
fwiw, see if you can get your hands on some Peluso sub cards. I think you'll like what you hear and what they cost.
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http://www.archive.org/download/ch2006-02-17.dpa4026.shnf/ch2006-02-17d2/ch2006-02-17d2t05_vbr.mp3
that's an onstage xy subcard(dpa 4026) tape. definitely not mono
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http://www.archive.org/download/ch2006-02-17.dpa4026.shnf/ch2006-02-17d2/ch2006-02-17d2t05_vbr.mp3
that's an onstage xy subcard(dpa 4026) tape. definitely not mono
I guess that is the exception, rather than the rule, from what I have discovered (and heard). I have mk21s, and have had dreadful results running them coincident...In order to get the soundstage to an appropriate width, I have found it necessary to get some space in there..there are no absolutes though, no argument from me on that..
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Yeah Teddy, my thoughts were the same as I had just gotten some subcards and ran them onstage last weekend. On Nicks recommedation I ran them xy onstage. Surprisingly, I did get seperation. Completely not what I was expecting.
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i ran my subs XY all the time.
same for the c422 and carls c34.
mono, it aint. i can tell you that from my personal experience (whatever that is worth).
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another way I like them is a short A-B setup, about a foot to 18" or so.
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AKG c34 sub-cards at 90deg
http://www.nickspicks.com/images/video/phil/ESSEX/ruben&cherise.mp3
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M222 :-*
yeah the 21's are great if you like metallic mids and highs.. ;D :P
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M222 :-*
yeah the 21's are great if you like metallic mids and highs.. ;D :P
::) :P ;D
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can you roll the tubes in those m222 bodies?
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M222 are the tubes
can you roll the tubes in those m222 bodies?
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i thought the m222 was a tubed preamp assembly (mic body) that took the mkxx caps?
guess not.
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The M222 is the tube microphone amplifier and the NT222 is the powering unit.
i thought the m222 was a tubed preamp assembly (mic body) that took the mkxx caps?
guess not.
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ok, well then can you take the tube out of the m222 and replace it w/something else?
that was the original question.
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Sorry - not thinking clearly just landed in Suzhou China :zzz:
I am not sure about re-tubing the M222.
ok, well then can you take the tube out of the m222 and replace it w/something else?
that was the original question.
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I am glad Nick and others have had good luck with Coincident configs with the subcards. By default, they just do not produce a large stereo image. Maybe with a smaller ensemble it isnt a big deal, but with larger ensembles such as orchestra or brass band, the main disadvantages(the recording only of loudness differences) of coincident are very noticeable. Time arrival cues are missing, and, because of that, the stereo spread suffers greatly.
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I like the 21's a lot on stage and close to the stage.. Initially I thought I might get by with mk21 and mk41's but I found many situations where I really needed the mk4's.
I have not tried coincident with my mk21's. Mainly NOS. I have to echo Teddy's concerns about soundstage width and separation if running x-y. I really need to get some windchimes in my basement to measure sound stage accuracy with different configs..
For a while I ran them in a slightly closer than normal spaced DINA until I picked up the mk4's. In that 'special application' tight config I found the mk4's produced a better defined sound stage. I really do want to revisit the performance of the mk21 in that config.
I have started running schoeps actives > rmod > r09 as a sometimes second rig.. It is nice for experimenting without hauling a whole second rig. It also lets me run cards as a backup in case the crowd doesn't cooperate, etc..
As for boom.. I think at some venues you'll get some mud even on stage/lip. Whether from monitor bleed, stage wall reflections or monster sub cabinets (I was setup between 8 of them on friday.. useless as they just muddied George Porter's bass amp).