Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: willyjbrown on August 08, 2006, 09:05:51 AM
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Just a curious question I have since I haven't been taping that long. Reason I ask is because last night I was recording at a local bar for a friend of mine's band and I had 2 smokers to the left of my stand & rig and 2 smokers to the right. I tapped all of them on the shoulder and motioned for them to please move since it was affecting the recording. Of course that was probably a load of bullsh*t, but I did that so I didn't have to breathe all of that in for the whole night. I haven't listened to the tape yet, but does cigarette smoke or smoke of any kind (if there's a lot of it) mess with recordings any? Also, other than your obvious talking and noises, is there anything else I should be alert for in the future as something that will mess with my recordings? I've heard a little about cell phone interference; is it that bad? Hopefully I can save some future recordings with your help. Thanks in advance!
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smoking shouldn't bother your recordings. sounds moves through smoke like it does air, so it should be ok. though i would say that you want to 100% use screens. smoke can affect your mics and make them dirty. use screens inside smokey bars to cut down on this, and wash your screens every once in a while.
cell phone interference is a definate problem. i haven't had it affect any of my recordings yet, but it definately does. you will hear it loud and clear, i can assure you of that.
if your in a bar a lot, make sure you push trashcans away from you. the bottles will be very audible.
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PLACEMENT PLACEMENT PLACEMENT. Sorry for the all caps. I think good mic placement is even more important then good gear. Some of the best recordings I have heard have been done with cheap mics placed properly. Back in the 40's and 50's they did not have the great recording devices we have now. They had recorders that would so 30 to 14,000 cps if you were very lucky. So the old engineers relied not on EQ, Compression, or most of the hi-tech tricks we have now. They relied 100% on a good source, and great mic placement. I think you can take a cheap mic place it properly and get a good recording, what you can't do is place a great mic in a bad spot and get a great recording.
I think people wanting to record should use there ears first when it comes to placement. Technique is one thing but the old engineers used there ears first, allot of what we now know about mic placement comes from these "old guys"
They would say what if I place the mic here or there what happens? They did all the hard work we now have these mic techniques to fall back on. But.... even with techniques there is no technique greater then using your ears first, to help with mic placement.
I know that when recording a concert you don’t have much time to check out placement, but I say hey that's what the opening band is for :)
(unless that is who you are recording) use this time to experiment and try new placement ideas, if possible use a good set of isolating headphones to listen to the mix. See/hear the effect that moving the mics has on sound an inch here or there makes a huge difference in sound quality.
This is the part of audio that is being lost IMO no one is really experimenting with moving mics around anymore oh sure we will try new techniques but they are for the most part ones that were already developed. We rely too much on the work of these old engineers. We have forgotten what has made them great in the first place: EXPERIMENTATION, IMAGINATION, and the willingness to try new things they did that back then because it was all they had they did not have sound forge to fix it later, it had to be right the first time.
Who knows maybe you will come up with the next new mic technique. This is what audio recording is all about IMO. It’s more then just capturing a moment it’s about learning new things, I think as an audio engineer, if I am not learning something new I should get out of the business. No one knows everything and everyone can learn from each other. I love audio I think of it like an ocean we still have allot of uncharted places to check out.
Chris Church
is there anything else I should be alert for in the future as something that will mess with my recordings? I've heard a little about cell phone interference; is it that bad? Hopefully I can save some future recordings with your help. Thanks in advance!
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helicopters
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I tapped all of them on the shoulder and motioned for them to please move since it was affecting the recording.
Not answering your question, but you just broke my main rule of taping: to be unobtrusive to the rest of the audience, the venue and the band. If I'm concerned about some behaviors among the audience, I might mention I'm taping and even bribe them with a copy if they help me out...but in the end, if they wanna sit there and yell obscenties in my mic all night, that's the way it goes.
I think a good analogy is that tapers should be like a referee: if they're doing a good job, no one should really notice them.
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but in the end, if they wanna sit there and yell obscenties in my mic all night, that's the way it goes.
Not to de-rail, but if someone is yelling obscenities in general, I'll ask them to be quiet. Not just so they don't ruin my recording but so they don't ruin my enjoyment of the damn music. I only ask people to stop talking around my mics if a) I know them and b) they're being loud enough that I can't hear the music. For an example, see here: http://www.iputfileshere.com/twdy2006-08-03.akgc1000s.flac16.zip (track 1). This was during a house show with ten people watching.
In response to the original question: I'll say cell phones. The other night at a show I heard cell phone interference over the damn PA (no clue how that happened). It's the number one cause of headaches for me at shows.
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What else affects recordings? I'm not sure what qualifies as obvious, so...in no particular order:
- gear selection (mics, preamps, ADCs, cables, etc.) and features (stepped or variable gain, stereo gain control, M/S decoding capabilities, etc.)
- mic location / placement (e.g. within the recording space)
- mic configuration (vertical and horizontal orientation, spacing, etc.)
- mic patterns (omni, subcardioid, cardioid, hypercardioid, supercardioid, figure-8)
- sound source (e.g. quality of the PA, its location, orientation, etc.)
- Front of House (FOH) mix
- monitor mix (stage monitors for the band)
- musicians' amps
- acoustic environment (e.g. the "room" acoustics)
- general environment (crowd, HVAC, bottles > trash cans, etc.)
- bit-depth and sample rate
- post production / processing
- electromagnetic interference
- heat (some gear functions well in heat, some does not)
I'm sure there's more...
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watch out if you are close to ceiling fans, might need to run windscreens.
Don't have your stand sitting in contact with something like the chair in front of you or a railing. Even with shockmounts you will get small bumping sounds.
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watch out if you are close to ceiling fans, might need to run windscreens.
Or an open door, or an air duct.
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Not answering your question, but you just broke my main rule of taping: to be unobtrusive to the rest of the audience, the venue and the band. If I'm concerned about some behaviors among the audience, I might mention I'm taping and even bribe them with a copy if they help me out...but in the end, if they wanna sit there and yell obscenties in my mic all night, that's the way it goes.
I think a good analogy is that tapers should be like a referee: if they're doing a good job, no one should really notice them.
I understand your thought, and I agree if it was a stealth recording or if it was a big show. However, this was an open mic night at a bar and this band was doing 5 of their new songs as a brief 20 minute set. There were about 20 people around the stage area right in front, then there was me all by myself in the middle of the room with my rig (the band was paying me to record by the way), and then there was the crowd of about 30 people at the bar about 10 feet behind me. There was plenty of space for them to go enjoy their cigarettes somewhere else, whether it be in front of the stage, at the bar, or in the booths up against both side walls. These smokers weren't paying any attention to the music anyways.
I think some people misunderstood what I was asking. What I'm trying to say is what are possible hazards that I should look out for or notice while I'm taping so I avoid unwanted noises and so forth on my recordings. I wasn't trying to ask about microphone selection, microphone placement, and stuff like that. So assume I've got the perfect position in a venue with my gear and I'm happily taping with ease; what can cause a hitch for me? I'm only wondering about stuff I can control or can avoid. Like I said, this is besides the obvious things that come to mind such as a drunk yelling into my mics or running into my stand. Think about things like cell phones, smoke, loud air conditioners.....
Sorry for the confusion!
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cell phone interference...
its happened to me,the wife just cant wait until i get hope to ask silly questions,she has to call. ::)
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most commonly: user error
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I second that - i have been plagued with operator-error problems.
heh hehh - if only i could take myself out of the loop.
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indoors: garbage cans, cash registers, HVAC vents, neon lights, kitchen/bathroom/building access doors, pool tables, darts boards, foosball tables, arcade games, jukeboxes.....
outdoors: running water, porta-johns, farm animals, dogs, crickets, trains, helicopters, fighter jets....
the list goes on and on....
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Just a curious question I have since I haven't been taping that long. Reason I ask is because last night I was recording at a local bar for a friend of mine's band and I had 2 smokers to the left of my stand & rig and 2 smokers to the right. I tapped all of them on the shoulder and motioned for them to please move since it was affecting the recording. Of course that was probably a load of bullsh*t, but I did that so I didn't have to breathe all of that in for the whole night. I haven't listened to the tape yet, but does cigarette smoke or smoke of any kind (if there's a lot of it) mess with recordings any? Also, other than your obvious talking and noises, is there anything else I should be alert for in the future as something that will mess with my recordings? I've heard a little about cell phone interference; is it that bad? Hopefully I can save some future recordings with your help. Thanks in advance!
My tapes are constantly destroid by people walking around bitching about me smoking in a bar...
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Fireworks can ruin recordings when taping outdoors at small music festivals.
I don't know what the fascination is with lighting off fireworks during a band's set but I've had it happen to me on 3 separate occasions this summer.
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Air conditioning!!
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=69724.0
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If I'm concerned about some behaviors among the audience, I might mention I'm taping and even bribe them with a copy if they help me out...but in the end, if they wanna sit there and yell obscenties in my mic all night, that's the way it goes.
Are you kidding? I somebody was intentionally yelling right into my mics they would be wearing the mic stand home as a necktie. >:D
I am not kidding.
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Check out this review 5 posts down. I was accused of belching in my mics by some UK wanker. http://www.archive.org/details/plf2006-02-10.akgC463B.tonys.32376.sbeok.flac16. I guess that could be considered unwanted noise ;)
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Check out this review 5 posts down. I was accused of belching in my mics by some UK wanker. http://www.archive.org/details/plf2006-02-10.akgC463B.tonys.32376.sbeok.flac16. I guess that could be considered unwanted noise ;)
Thats really funny..of course not all UK people are wankers. By the way, did you?
+t for the chuckle.
Humbug
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Check out this review 5 posts down. I was accused of belching in my mics by some UK wanker. http://www.archive.org/details/plf2006-02-10.akgC463B.tonys.32376.sbeok.flac16. I guess that could be considered unwanted noise ;)
Thats really funny..of course not all UK people are wankers. By the way, did you?
+t for the chuckle.
Humbug
I know your'e not all wankers. I've been called a cowboy and a crazy yank. Did I burp? Don't remember. Could have been the Boddingtons :laugh:
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These things are pretty obvious, but they've happened to me in the past.
Direct mic obstuctions...
seems to happen mostly when running stage-lip, on-stage, or mics at head-height. Mics that are blocked in some way (heads, hands, bodies) from a PA or an Amp on stage etc. for a brief time can muffle the recording. I've had people actually put their hand in front of them, take off the wind screen, fiddle with them and what not. If you saw a cell phone sitting next to someone... would you pick it up and start fiddling w/ it? Sorry, just venting...hahaha.
wind...
can be a big annoyance it "flutters"(for lack of a better word) the high end or you hear wind "whooshing" noise. Sometimes windscreens just won't help. Also, I've had huge gusts of wind blow my mic placement off which resulted in some audable wierdness on the recording. Kinda sucked, I guess the stand thumb screws weren't tight enough. Hahaha, end user error I suppose.
Rain...
can be an annoyance as well... I've heard umbrellas flap and rain drop noise on recordings. Again, not much you can you do about it.
-K
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I would add alcohol to the list.
I've noticed as the show goes on, some crowds get rowdier and start whooping and hollering and lots of clapping.
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One word FARTING. its bad and sometimes it just can not be stopped and it always seems to happen in a quiet section. Not that I have this problem but I know people that do.
Just a curious question I have since I haven't been taping that long. Reason I ask is because last night I was recording at a local bar for a friend of mine's band and I had 2 smokers to the left of my stand & rig and 2 smokers to the right. I tapped all of them on the shoulder and motioned for them to please move since it was affecting the recording. Of course that was probably a load of bullsh*t, but I did that so I didn't have to breathe all of that in for the whole night. I haven't listened to the tape yet, but does cigarette smoke or smoke of any kind (if there's a lot of it) mess with recordings any? Also, other than your obvious talking and noises, is there anything else I should be alert for in the future as something that will mess with my recordings? I've heard a little about cell phone interference; is it that bad? Hopefully I can save some future recordings with your help. Thanks in advance!
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You know what could really mess up your recordings? The sound of a penis pump being operated under your desk or maybe under the soundboard...
We have got to get an audio clip from the court record for the TS archives..
Foster told authorities that she saw Thompson use the device almost daily during the August 2003 murder trial of a man accused of shaking a toddler to death.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060818/D8JJ3HLO0.html
how the hell is a dead toddler arousing??? >:( ???
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I have found there are a good number of people who like to be in the back of the room, and tend to the center. Seems like if they were smoking, they were trying to be courteous to the majority of the crowd who were up front.
If the room were not so very full, and you had a blocker or two, then you could consider moving forward and letting the riff raff use the back wall. Your sound would probably improve anyway.
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Soundguy chatting with all his friends and members of the opening band who come back to talk to him.
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40-something yuppies who can't hold their alcohol trying to act cool by clapping off-beat, freak dancing at a jam band show, flirting with kids half their age, and just being general asses.