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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Gedit on September 19, 2006, 09:50:31 PM
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I'm traveling to Vermont this weekend to record a show in a college gymansium. Aside from the obvious question (why would a band CHOOSE to play in a gymnasium) I am wondering whether some of you have suggestions for countering the "gymnasium effect". I'll be running a four-mic mix into an R-4, so I have some play-room during mixdown.
Behringer B2-Pro (dual diaphragm) and AT 4040 > R-4
The B2s have several settings:
1. straight through or -10db
2. Omni, figure-eight, cardioid
3. straight through or -6db roll off at 150Hz
The AT 4040s have the following:
1. -12 dB roll off at 80 Hz
2. straight through or -10db
3. cardioid
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No chance of getting a board feed? If you can, get as close to the stage or stacks as possibe to minimize the room. maybe even consider doing a stack tape if it's looking really empty.
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sbd patch is out of the question, as the band always multi-tracks its own shows for CD release.
the place will be packed to the rafters, hopefully with the side benches stacked against the wall and not pulled out so that the roar from the benches will not be above the rest of the crowd noise (sheesh, am i insane to do this?). plus, this gym is KNOWN for its lousy sound, so i'm trying to beat the devil at its own game here.
i'd prefer not doing a stack tape as i'll lose all stereo image (not that there will be a lot in there i guess).
i've heard that taping from the back wall will reduce echo/reverb from the concrete walls, but then i'd be wrestling crowd noise unless i ran at like 13-feet or so, even then. plus i'd need hypers and my mic selection is hyper-less.
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well I was gonna say run hypers and hope for the best
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Maybe get close, so the cards at an included angle of ~70-75º point at the stacks. Then run the omnis Healy-style and mix 'em in later to open things up a bit (if it needs it).
No idea whether you should attenuate, and I'd save the HPF for post.
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greeley bluegrass festival Open Road was playing in a HUGE metal warehouse. I started ~70 ft. LOB from the PA. Studio Project C4 cards, DIN. Mid-set I moved up for a stack recording, ~13 ft. from the right speaker.
The stack tape is more presentable, definitely more listenable on more systems. While it has a likeable upfrontess to it, it was still lifeless. Coulda been the PA/soundguy, I don't remember the sound being spectacular. The 70 ft. LOB llocation picked up as much room as music. Kinda neat on a nice home playback. Kinda crappy on computer speakers / ipod.
Los Lobos Playing in the same warehouse. set up FOB, maybe around 80 ft. from stage. Soundman did a good job for what he was given, sounds better than the Open Road LOB, but still a lot of room.
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well I was gonna say run hypers and hope for the best
Agreed.
Try to find out if the band is doing a stereo or a mono mix. If they run a mono mix, stack taping would be the best idea. Get as close to one of the stacks as possible and run from there.
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I assume you are referring to Patrick Gymnasium at UVM. I have taped in there. do a stack tape. you can ask the sound guys if they are mixing in mono or stereo, and if the say mono stack tape is the way to go. IF they say stereo, then you have to toss it up. In a crappy room I always feel the closer to the stage you can get the better.
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yea, it's patrick gymnasium. and the band has been mixing stereo lately.
<sigh>
I appreciate the replies, guys.
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Find the exact sweet spot...make an equlateral triangle with the speakers. Example if the speakers are 40 feet apart, set up 40 feet from the stage dead center. If they are running stereo, your in the zone! This is where the sound of the room will sound its best. Granted if its a shitty room it will be the best sound of a shitty room. I would run the AT's pointed at the stacks and I like the idea of running the B2's in the Healy method, then mix in post. Good luck, but have fun. ;D
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if you can run MS you can play with the final mix after to decide how much ambience to add...
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baffled cards?
similar to the baffles used between omnis to recreate a "head space"?
Also, i do have two AKG D8000S hyper-cards that i didn't think of using until now.
edit: i'm thinking of the jecklin (sp?) disc separating the omins
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So if I combine the excellent suggestions here I'd end up with the two AT4040s separated by a jecklin disk, plus the two spaced omnis facing 90-degrees away from source into the R-4
(http://www.josephson.com/jdisk.jpg)
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sbd patch is out of the question, as the band always multi-tracks its own shows for CD release.
the place will be packed to the rafters, hopefully with the side benches stacked against the wall and not pulled out so that the roar from the benches will not be above the rest of the crowd noise (sheesh, am i insane to do this?). plus, this gym is KNOWN for its lousy sound, so i'm trying to beat the devil at its own game here.
i'd prefer not doing a stack tape as i'll lose all stereo image (not that there will be a lot in there i guess).
i've heard that taping from the back wall will reduce echo/reverb from the concrete walls, but then i'd be wrestling crowd noise unless i ran at like 13-feet or so, even then. plus i'd need hypers and my mic selection is hyper-less.
Ron is 100% correct get as close to the PA as you can, because if your in the direct sound field (loud amplified) you will not get the room sound at all this theory will not work for acoustic performance but will work for anything going thru a PA. The farther you go back the worse the reverb and room delay issues will be, because the sound has time to travel and bounce back and forth before it gets to your mics. The other way to do it if your going to tape in a live room is to deaden the space behind the mics, so that direct bounce back from the wall will not get into the back of the mic, this however does not take care of the ceiling or the floor.
I would use a jecklin disk type thing behind the mics the bigger the object the better it will sound and it must absorb sound. This option is out of the question for stack taping, but it’s a moot point if you stack tape you will solve all your problems. I also do not agree with your statement about losing your stereo image, if Everything is going thru the PA and the sound man has his shit together, the stereo image will be just as good close up as far away if your micing the stacks left and right. It's all a mater of electronics at that point, and his good use of his pan control for his mix that will determine your stereo image not placement of your mics.
Most people that do a stack tape only tape one stack LOL, well that’s not going to give you any image what so ever. Set up a mics on both the left and right PA have a friend stand near the other mic. After that it’s all about how you place the mics in front of the PA and if the sound engineer out front has his act together.
Chris Church
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chris ... thanks for your comments. i hesitate to do a stack recording because of the nature of the crowd. it will be dancing madness up front at the stacks, which is why i'm trying to nail down alternatives.
the jecklin behind the mics sounds do-able.
the sound man is good, so hopefully the image will hold up against the room acoustics.
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Put the disc between the mics, just like oss, not behind them.
The nearly 180º rearward off-axis response (reverb from the rear wall) will be very much negated, because, well, its coming from completely behind the mics.
Good point I was thinking omni not cardioid Moke you are correct :P
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ok, so i think ive got the following.
AT4040s spaced at 6.5 inches with a 12-inch jecklin disk between them. Mics facing forward or slightly toed out.
B2-Pro omnis spaced outside the ATs (probably around 12-inches or so) facing at 90-degrees from source. I imagine the jecklin disk will also act as a baflle for the omnis in this case.
edit: now i just have to make a jecklin disk
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yea, it's patrick gymnasium. and the band has been mixing stereo lately.
<sigh>
I appreciate the replies, guys.
M/S stack tape
and if the PA is stereo in a Gymn the sound will be total ass, IMHO
You're a professional?
http://www.radiodial.org
Are you making any decent cash doing this or just having fun?
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it's part-time, and yes i make money on live multi-tracks.
i did the baffled cards as moke suggested. just about to listen to it now as a matter of fact ???
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here's what i ran ..
FOH @ 13 feet
B2-Pro baffled (using a home-made jecklin disk - what a sight that was, but it worked) @ 6.5 inches facing forward
AKG D8000S hypers at 12-inches facing forward (the jecklin separated these to some extent as well)
In mixdown I used 25% B2-Pro and 75% AKG hypers. I boosted everything above 16Khz by 3 db for some air.
Doesn't sound bad at all. You still know it was in a gym, but it's a helluva lot better than the '02 show in the same place.
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here's what i ran ..
FOH @ 13 feet
B2-Pro baffled (using a home-made jecklin disk - what a sight that was, but it worked) @ 6.5 inches facing forward
AKG D8000S hypers at 12-inches facing forward (the jecklin separated these to some extent as well)
In mixdown I used 25% B2-Pro and 75% AKG hypers. I boosted everything above 16Khz by 3 db for some air.
Doesn't sound bad at all. You still know it was in a gym, but it's a helluva lot better than the '02 show in the same place.
+T for your efforts. I am glad you liek the mix. 8)
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thx. i was worried it would sound crappy. i'll post a link when it's up on LMA.
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thx. i was worried it would sound crappy. i'll post a link when it's up on LMA.
Congrats! +T
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thx for the great suggestions.
here's the tape
http://www.archive.org/details/db2006-09-23.b2-pro.akg-d8000s.flac16