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Gear / Technical Help => Post-Processing, Computer / Streaming / Internet Devices & Related Activity => Topic started by: sickrick43 on September 30, 2006, 09:30:32 PM
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Wanna try some M/S recording with the 744, but don't want to configure for M/S since I won't be able to accurately monitor the blend during the recording.
Got just about every audio proggie for the PC (soundforge, wavelab, samplitude, audacity)- which one has M/S mixing functions? I
supposed I could run it analog through the V3, but I don't want to introduce an analog generation (obviously).
Rick
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wavelab has a plugin called "toolsone" under the VST plugins. that will handle your m/s matrixing. i think you want to invert your side channel (which should be the right channel). you'll have to set up a batch process to render the new file after you get the settings how you want them.
good luck! PM me if you have any more questions.
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Assuming you didn't have a matrix plugin, couldn't you make a copy of the figure 8 track, invert the phase on one of them and then pan the tracks hard left and right? Then you'd have two tracks (L&R of the side mic) and the one mid track? Probably harder to control this way, but I think it would work in a pinch?
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Assuming you didn't have a matrix plugin, couldn't you make a copy of the figure 8 track, invert the phase on one of them and then pan the tracks hard left and right? Then you'd have two tracks (L&R of the side mic) and the one mid track? Probably harder to control this way, but I think it would work in a pinch?
yeah, this would work. you have to pan the non-inverted one to the left and the inverted one to the right (assuming you had the negative side of the capsule facing right). then to finish it off, you take the mid channel and mix it on top of both of these single channel recordins using the same ratio for both and you get one M+L and one M+R (which is actually M-(-R) )
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I use Waves S1 Imager plugin with Wave Lab.
Also, I believe the 744 (& 722) have a built in m/s monitor function with the headphone output. You can record discrete M & S channels, but it will do a 50/50 m/s>stereo mix to the headphone output so you can get an idea of what you're recording. You'll have to dig into the manual for more details, but I think SonicSound did this when recording m/s at AllGood a few months back.
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I use Waves S1 Imager plugin with Wave Lab.
where is this plugin?
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I use Waves S1 Imager plugin with Wave Lab.
where is this plugin?
http://www.waves.com/
Voxengo offers a free VST Mid-Side plugin (http://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/).
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I think SF can do it natively. I forget how, but search the help file -- pretty sure it's built in somewhere...
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I think SF can do it natively. I forget how, but search the help file -- pretty sure it's built in somewhere...
Right you are. Pan/Expand off the process menu. Also have the Waves S1 Imager plugin that will work in sampllitude (which I use to bring in the whole 96/24 tracks, process and dither down to 16 bit), but that seems less "intuitive" than the soundforge one. Guess I'll have to go out and record a "throwaway" to play with before going out and trying it on a "keeper".
On the TLM-170, I'm assuming the front of the mic (in figure 8) goes to the left side, and rear to the right? I've done blum a number of times from onstage, but in the room, too much close crowd on the rear lobes - especially in venue's where the floor goes up and 5 rows back may end up higher than 6/7' mic height - so you've got folks chatting directly into your rear pattern.
I know Ratdogs sound guy runs M/S from FOH (which I would think unusual, due to how far back he is).
I was just thinking of giving it a try, just to see if there's a major difference between M/S & Blum in the final output...
Thanks for the input guys...
Rick
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yeah, the front of the lobe will face left. this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned. if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.
+t and good luck!
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Soundforge does it. It is really easy.
another question for Neumann ak 20 users. Which side does the "figure 8 - 20" logo face while recording? Left or right?
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Soundforge does it. It is really easy.
another question for Neumann ak 20 users. Which side does the "figure 8 - 20" logo face while recording? Left or right?
the 20 faces the left. that is the front of the cap. if you look at my avitar, the 20 is on the closed side of the mount.
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any mac users in the house..? have any of you folks used the matrix+ (http://www.soundhack.com/freeware.php) plugin..? i am stuck usinig an ibook for the forseeable future, so i will need to be using audacity to do this...
weird thing is, it seems like the plugin makes the left channel louder than the right. it isnt a big deal to boost the right channel a few db's, but this shouldnt be necessary. shouldnt both channels be of equal amplitude..? or was i just enough off center that it shows up dramatically in the end...?
tia
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yeah, the front of the lobe will face left. this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned. if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.
+t and good luck!
:o
it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right. i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...
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i'm pretty sure that the front of the lobe is always going to face left.
m/s formulas are M+L and M-R, so if they were reversed, the summing formulas will be all messed up.
can't you turn the fig 8 180 degrees on that thing?
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i'm pretty sure that the front of the lobe is always going to face left.
m/s formulas are M+L and M-R, so if they were reversed, the summing formulas will be all messed up.
can't you turn the fig 8 180 degrees on that thing?
you can get it so that it sets up that way... i just had been doing it reverse...
so i should be able to manually do the conversion still, right..? just not sure exactly how to do that in audacity...
+t for the input...
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http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/ms_stereo.htm
my previous post should say L = M+S and R = M-S. Sorry. But still, same concept. This might also explain why one channel is louder then the other. You can still do it manually, but you might have to reverse the polarity on the left instead of the right. Or you might be able to invert the entire track and then use the regular M/S formulas...
edit to add:
http://www.mackie.com/products/800r/midsize.html
http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/december/index4.html
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Rick, check this out
http://sound.eti.pg.gda.pl/student/tn/MicrophoneTechniques_I.pdf
I think SF can do it natively. I forget how, but search the help file -- pretty sure it's built in somewhere...
Right you are. Pan/Expand off the process menu. Also have the Waves S1 Imager plugin that will work in sampllitude (which I use to bring in the whole 96/24 tracks, process and dither down to 16 bit), but that seems less "intuitive" than the soundforge one. Guess I'll have to go out and record a "throwaway" to play with before going out and trying it on a "keeper".
On the TLM-170, I'm assuming the front of the mic (in figure 8) goes to the left side, and rear to the right? I've done blum a number of times from onstage, but in the room, too much close crowd on the rear lobes - especially in venue's where the floor goes up and 5 rows back may end up higher than 6/7' mic height - so you've got folks chatting directly into your rear pattern.
I know Ratdogs sound guy runs M/S from FOH (which I would think unusual, due to how far back he is).
I was just thinking of giving it a try, just to see if there's a major difference between M/S & Blum in the final output...
Thanks for the input guys...
Rick
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yes...led is front
yeah, the front of the lobe will face left. this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned. if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.
+t and good luck!
:o
it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right. i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...
-
yes...led is frontyeah, the front of the lobe will face left. this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned. if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.
+t and good luck!
:o
it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right. i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...
yeah, but the LED could rotate to both the left and the right. it should face left.
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http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/ms_stereo.htm
my previous post should say L = M+S and R = M-S. Sorry. But still, same concept. This might also explain why one channel is louder then the other. You can still do it manually, but you might have to reverse the polarity on the left instead of the right. Or you might be able to invert the entire track and then use the regular M/S formulas...
edit to add:
http://www.mackie.com/products/800r/midsize.html
http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/december/index4.html
so for the ones that i have recorded that had the fig 8 facing right, i should be inverting the side that mixes with the left, correct..? you are inverting the side signal of the channel/side where the back of the fig 8 was pointed...?
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http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/ms_stereo.htm
my previous post should say L = M+S and R = M-S. Sorry. But still, same concept. This might also explain why one channel is louder then the other. You can still do it manually, but you might have to reverse the polarity on the left instead of the right. Or you might be able to invert the entire track and then use the regular M/S formulas...
edit to add:
http://www.mackie.com/products/800r/midsize.html
http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/december/index4.html
so for the ones that i have recorded that had the fig 8 facing right, i should be inverting the side that mixes with the left, correct..? you are inverting the side signal of the channel/side where the back of the fig 8 was pointed...?
this explains everything ;D
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yes...led is frontyeah, the front of the lobe will face left. this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned. if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.
+t and good luck!
:o
it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right. i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...
Thanks for the interesting document. Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.
Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic. Have heard of some using omni. Which sounds better?
Rick
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Hey Rick,
Did you see page 14 of that pdf? It seems to give a good idea of the outcome when various patterns are used for the mid.
Also, here's some sheets that Nick posted a while back that are pretty similar:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=66414.0
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Hey Rick, Ive used everything from Card to omni and everything in between as the mid mic..If you make the Mid microphone an omni pattern, then when you decode it the spacing is fixed at a 180º spread - tthe patterns aim due left and right no matter the volume. But , as you adjust Mid vs. Side volume the pattern shifts from cardioid when the microphones are equal, to wide cardioid when there is more Mid, to hypercardioid when there is more Side.
I like using Cardiod the best, generally. fixed the PM thing, forgot about it.
of course with Cardiod as the mid, you essentially get an XY pairyes...led is frontyeah, the front of the lobe will face left. this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned. if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.
+t and good luck!
:o
it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right. i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...
Thanks for the interesting document. Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.
Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic. Have heard of some using omni. Which sounds better?
Rick
-
Hey Rick, Ive used everything from Card to omni and everything in between as the mid mic..If you make the Mid microphone an omni pattern, then when you decode it the spacing is fixed at a 180º spread - tthe patterns aim due left and right no matter the volume. But , as you adjust Mid vs. Side volume the pattern shifts from cardioid when the microphones are equal, to wide cardioid when there is more Mid, to hypercardioid when there is more Side.
I like using Cardiod the best, generally. fixed the PM thing, forgot about it.
of course with Cardiod as the mid, you essentially get an XY pairyes...led is frontyeah, the front of the lobe will face left. this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned. if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.
+t and good luck!
:o
it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right. i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...
Thanks for the interesting document. Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.
Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic. Have heard of some using omni. Which sounds better?
Rick
so what is the advantage of m/s over x-y..?
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ability to change stereo width
Hey Rick, Ive used everything from Card to omni and everything in between as the mid mic..If you make the Mid microphone an omni pattern, then when you decode it the spacing is fixed at a 180º spread - tthe patterns aim due left and right no matter the volume. But , as you adjust Mid vs. Side volume the pattern shifts from cardioid when the microphones are equal, to wide cardioid when there is more Mid, to hypercardioid when there is more Side.
I like using Cardiod the best, generally. fixed the PM thing, forgot about it.
of course with Cardiod as the mid, you essentially get an XY pairyes...led is frontyeah, the front of the lobe will face left. this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned. if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.
+t and good luck!
:o
it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right. i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...
Thanks for the interesting document. Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.
Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic. Have heard of some using omni. Which sounds better?
Rick
so what is the advantage of m/s over x-y..?
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ability to change stereo widthHey Rick, Ive used everything from Card to omni and everything in between as the mid mic..If you make the Mid microphone an omni pattern, then when you decode it the spacing is fixed at a 180º spread - tthe patterns aim due left and right no matter the volume. But , as you adjust Mid vs. Side volume the pattern shifts from cardioid when the microphones are equal, to wide cardioid when there is more Mid, to hypercardioid when there is more Side.
I like using Cardiod the best, generally. fixed the PM thing, forgot about it.
of course with Cardiod as the mid, you essentially get an XY pairyes...led is frontyeah, the front of the lobe will face left. this will make the M/S decoders work like they were planned. if you mess it up, its not hard to fix, but the plugins are all designed for the left side to be positive and the right side to be negative.
+t and good luck!
:o
it looks to me like on my akg c422, the front lobe of the fig 8 faces right. i am assuming that the side with the leds is the front...
Thanks for the interesting document. Unblock me in PM so's I can reply to your sends.
Notice that that document (is in in POLISH?) has card for the front mic. Have heard of some using omni. Which sounds better?
Rick
so what is the advantage of m/s over x-y..?
Also, better mono compatibility (not that anyone here is worried about mono in this day and age)...
I was exploring this as a better (or just an) alternative to blumlien - which works well close up, but not so well from further back. My curiousity was aroused by RatDogs soundguy - who runs M/S from FOH (which is pretty far back). But I didn't want to setup the 744 for M/S, as it's really difficult to monitor soundstage in a loud room, on the fly - hence my curiosity about methods for doing it in post...
My usual setup back in the room is X/Y Hyper. The ability to get "as good" a source recording, and adjust the width of the soundstage in post - could potentially make for a better result by being able to narrow the soundstage for boomy rooms, and widen it for "dry" rooms. Also, to potentially compensate for being further back from the source than optimum.
Something I want to experiment with in the future...
Rick
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just to see if there's a major difference between M/S & Blum in the final output...
M/S will have much better bass response compared to Blumlein. (I always found Blumlein to be very thin sounding...ymmv)
when i had the 414s I ran M/S alot....using the subcard as mid was my favorite!
-omni tended to be too bassy, hyper nowhere near enough bass and card just a little lacking...then again, I recorded stuff with alot of <40Hz tones.
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all i can say is that this is easy (for me) to do in samplitude (best $150 i have spent in a while), but damned if i didnt struggle with audacity...
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Why not change the jumper in the V3 an do it on the fily? Is that an option?
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Why not change the jumper in the V3 an do it on the fily? Is that an option?
on the fly is not advised unless you are damn good and the enviroment is not noisy. or, if you have something like the etymotics..
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M/S Decode in Polish? ;D
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M/S Decode in Polish? ;D
that isnt mid side..that is talking about coincident, near coincident , etc.. :D