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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: tod3sschu3tze on October 05, 2006, 08:55:08 AM
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hi guys!
i had several discussions - even in the german minidiscforum - about what mic setup ist best for very loud and bass-intensive metal/hardcore/metalcore-shows.
i want to upgrade my current setup (core sound low cost binaurals w/ low sensivity option) and these ones are in discussion:
- MM-HLSC-1 or -2
- SP-CMC-8 (cardioid or hypercardioid) + SP-SPSB8 w/ bass-roll-off
(- CSB)
i'd like to have a nice and stealthy setup, the advantage of the MM's are, they do not need a battery box even at 138dB. the SP's need one to cope with such a loudness.
but some guys said, when i tape a concert which is not as loud as crazy metal shows ( :D ) the SP's are the better choice, because the simply sound better. the reason is that the battery box enlarges the dynamic range of the SP's.
of course i would use them with my rockbox'ed iRiver.
so, i ask all the mic experts which of the mics is the better choice for my needs.
(perhaps some of you tape metal and can help, too)
thanks in advance! :-*
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"the SP's are the better choice, because the simply sound better."
I own both and im not so sure about that. I like the SP's better becasue they have a better bass response, but that could be a problem in a loud metal concert. The MM have an amazing smooth silky high end.
I would buy the MM-HLSC-1's...
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I would buy the MM-HLSC-1's...
Out of those listed above I would agree. The CMC-8s aren't the mics you want at extremely loud shows (maybe with a 3-wire box but definitely not with a standard 2-wire, like the ones from SoundPro's).
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I also own both also and having to choose I would take the at853's over the Senns only if they were modded (4.7k resistor mod) or ran with a 3-wire power supply.
I find it is difficult to get a nice tape with omni's if your seat is not in the sweet spot.
If you do get the unmodded SP mics for taping loud metal shows then you can pretty much guarantee they will distort.
Edit to correct the name of the mod.
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I have issues with my cmc-8s at very bass heayy shows. Although a little birdie told me that by replacing the 9v in the battery box with a similar sized 12v, you can get a little better dynamic range and thus less overloading. I have not tried this, but I hope to on my next taping outing...
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If you go AT, you should go 3-wire or phantom for sure, otherwise you'll distort at super-high SPLs...
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I had my 2-wire AT's modded with the 4.7k mod and the do not distort at all.
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hi guys!
i had several discussions - even in the german minidiscforum - about what mic setup ist best for very loud and bass-intensive metal/hardcore/metalcore-shows.
i want to upgrade my current setup (core sound low cost binaurals w/ low sensivity option) and these ones are in discussion:
- MM-HLSC-1 or -2
- SP-CMC-8 (cardioid or hypercardioid) + SP-SPSB8 w/ bass-roll-off
(- CSB)
i'd like to have a nice and stealthy setup, the advantage of the MM's are, they do not need a battery box even at 138dB. the SP's need one to cope with such a loudness.
but some guys said, when i tape a concert which is not as loud as crazy metal shows ( :D ) the SP's are the better choice, because the simply sound better. the reason is that the battery box enlarges the dynamic range of the SP's.
of course i would use them with my rockbox'ed iRiver.
so, i ask all the mic experts which of the mics is the better choice for my needs.
(perhaps some of you tape metal and can help, too)
thanks in advance! :-*
I have a new battery box that is $99.99 for three wire that has a special mod I do to the AT mics built in that reduces the THD by 2.5% and only decreases the output of the mics by .5 db if your interested let me know. This battery box combined with the AT mics will provide very good recordings at very high SPL this mod has a built in switch so it can be taken out of circuit. I also have a bass roll off option for an extra $10.00.
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I had my 2-wire AT's modded with the 4.7k mod and the do not distort at all.
My new mod is even better.
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every time I buy something from you, within a few months you design something better!!! :banging head:
I am gonna start saving for your next invention.
T+ to Chris Church
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every time I buy something from you, within a few months you design something better!!! :banging head:
I am gonna start saving for your next invention.
T+ to Chris Church
Actually your new preamp has that mod built in :)
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Hey Church, I might actually hit you up for that mod after the holidays. I am getting tired of my recordings getting all distorted. ACK! Would I have to send my CMC-8s to you (I assume so) and how big is the battery box you create?
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Hey Church, I might actually hit you up for that mod after the holidays. I am getting tired of my recordings getting all distorted. ACK! Would I have to send my CMC-8s to you (I assume so) and how big is the battery box you create?
The battery box is 3.5 x 2.5 x 1 inch I can build it into a mint tin but to be honest its a little tacky, I like my box much better. I dont need the mics unless they are two wire then I need to solder on a pair of mini xlr connectors to them.
Chris Church
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Yeah, mine are the stock cmc-8's, two wire that I use the SP battery box with.
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I would buy the MM-HLSC-1's...
Out of those listed above I would agree.
If you do get the unmodded SP mics for taping loud metal shows then you can pretty much guarantee they will distort.
okay, i contacted microphone madness, too.
they recommended me that mics for my proposition, but they recommend the use with a filter/bbox.
is it a fallacy when i say i will get best results with on from microphone madness?
just want one with bass roll off and it should be SMALL. ;D
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doesn't the music need to be distortion-free in order for the recording to be distortion-free?
haha, thats a great point.. that why I don't like metal!
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well guys ... its not a discussion about music, but of how taping that metal music ;D
soooo please answer my question ::)
***EDIT***
i looked for several battery boxes at MM and SP.
what is the better choice in regard to "stealthability"?
"MM-MBM Miniature "Mint Box" Battery / Filter Module with 7 position bass roll off" or "SP-SPSB-8 w/ bass roll off"?
the mint box looks small, but SP says "Extremely small and compact - the smallest long-life battery microphone power module available!", is that true ???
thanks!
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i looked for several battery boxes at MM and SP.
what is the better choice in regard to "stealthability"?
"MM-MBM Miniature "Mint Box" Battery / Filter Module with 7 position bass roll off" or "SP-SPSB-8 w/ bass roll off"?
the mint box looks small, but SP says "Extremely small and compact - the smallest long-life battery microphone power module available!", is that true ???
I would assume SP mean "the smallest" that they have. Both manufacturers list the dimensions of the bboxes at their site, that should help you decide on which one you want.
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8
http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmmimbobafim.htm
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oh yeah you are right, the mint box really seems to be the smallest "main-stream-box" available.
thanks :)
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If you get the MM-HLSC-1 microphones, you will NOT need bass rolloff. I thought I would post that, as it's unnecessary and will save you $20.
Really, you can probably get away with running on plug-in power from the recorder, provided you have a recorder that gives plug-in power via the Line Input.
Also, just a thought here: even though you're looking for the "smallest" box, you might want to get a box that takes a normal 9V battery... reason being that normal 9V batteries are easier to find than the miniature 9V/12V/6V batteries, and the typical 9V battery will give 300 to 500 hours of power to the mics (a lot more time of powering the mics than the smaller batteries).
Just some things to think about, before making your purchase.
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you are right, of course it is easier to get the standard 9V batteries, they are cheaper, too.
the iriver has a plugin-power of roundabout 1,5V via line-in, as i know.
hm, i am a bit confused about your statement that the hlsc-1 do not need bass-roll-off.
mike from microphone madness said:
Hi Phil,
I would definitely recommend using a batter/filter module with bass roll off for this application. It will enble the microphones to handle higher sound pressure levels and clean up some of that unwanted bass content.
Hope this helps,
Mike
ok, of course he wants to sell mm's products :) , but what do you think about his recommendation ???
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you are right, of course it is easier to get the standard 9V batteries, they are cheaper, too.
the iriver has a plugin-power of roundabout 1,5V via line-in, as i know.
hm, i am a bit confused about your statement that the hlsc-1 do not need bass-roll-off.
mike from microphone madness said:
Hi Phil,
I would definitely recommend using a batter/filter module with bass roll off for this application. It will enble the microphones to handle higher sound pressure levels and clean up some of that unwanted bass content.
Hope this helps,
Mike
ok, of course he wants to sell mm's products :) , but what do you think about his recommendation ???
Well if you are buying mics like the Sennhieser mics you dont need bass roll of because the bottom end is not there to begine with if you buy AT mics or my mics you need a bass roll off but if you buy mics with little bottom end then you will be fine. I would want all the bottom end I could get for concert recording but hey thats just me I would rather roll things off in post and just record a clean signal.
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alright thanks :D
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you are right, of course it is easier to get the standard 9V batteries, they are cheaper, too.
the iriver has a plugin-power of roundabout 1,5V via line-in, as i know.
I thought the iriver provided 2.5V of plug-in power. I've recorded concerts with the MM-HLSC-1 mics running directly into an iriver, with fine results. A 9V battery box is fine, though, and will ensure you're getting all of the mics' sonic quality.
hm, i am a bit confused about your statement that the hlsc-1 do not need bass-roll-off.
mike from microphone madness said:
Hi Phil,
I would definitely recommend using a batter/filter module with bass roll off for this application. It will enble the microphones to handle higher sound pressure levels and clean up some of that unwanted bass content.
Hope this helps,
Mike
ok, of course he wants to sell mm's products :) , but what do you think about his recommendation ???
Simply put: you do NOT need bass rolloff with those mics (they use the MKE-40 capsule). I'm not sure why Mike suggested bass rolloff, except maybe he wants the extra $20 he charges for that feature on a battery box.
The MM-HLSC-1 mics (pseudo-Sennheiser MKE-40 mics) sound "warm" (which I like), and like DPA4061s, they can handle taping very close to the PA without distorting due to sound levels or bass.
If I were you, I'd only buy the mics themselves. (Also, I'd probably get the MM-HLSC-2 mics, as they are the same as the HLSC-1s, except without the mini-rotating clips... but I never use clips to mount mics.) Use them at an "unimportant" show, using the plug-in power on your iriver, and see how you like them. Then, if you feel you want a battery box, I would suggest either building your own (it's easy to build a basic battery box), or contacting someone like Chris Church (Church-Audio) because I believe he makes very affordable and very small 9V battery boxes.
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I thought the iriver provided 2.5V of plug-in power. I've recorded concerts with the MM-HLSC-1 mics running directly into an iriver, with fine results. A 9V battery box is fine, though, and will ensure you're getting all of the mics' sonic quality.
yeah, i wasnt sure about the correct plug-in power, i think you are right.
yes, this is the only thing i expect from a battery box: getting all of the mics quality. :D
Simply put: you do NOT need bass rolloff with those mics (they use the MKE-40 capsule). I'm not sure why Mike suggested bass rolloff, except maybe he wants the extra $20 he charges for that feature on a battery box.
ok, he "maybe" wants to make money, thats what i expected ;)
The MM-HLSC-1 mics (pseudo-Sennheiser MKE-40 mics) sound "warm" (which I like), and like DPA4061s, they can handle taping very close to the PA without distorting due to sound levels or bass.
great, this sounds like THE type of mics i am looking for!
If I were you, I'd only buy the mics themselves. (Also, I'd probably get the MM-HLSC-2 mics, as they are the same as the HLSC-1s, except without the mini-rotating clips... but I never use clips to mount mics.) Use them at an "unimportant" show, using the plug-in power on your iriver, and see how you like them. Then, if you feel you want a battery box, I would suggest either building your own (it's easy to build a basic battery box), or contacting someone like Chris Church (Church-Audio) because I believe he makes very affordable and very small 9V battery boxes.
alright, you are more experienced than me, so i will follow your advice.
i mean, up to today i always plugged my low cost binaurals directly into the line-in and results were ok, except being right in front of the PA.
you say the HLSC-1 can handle that even without bbox, so i will only buy the mics first.
you are right, i can build or buy an cheaper box without bass roll off later.
but i like the mini-rotating clips of the HLSC-1 ;)
thank you! :)
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the at's are the best option if you choose to run phantom power
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sorry to hijack the thread but
what type of mic would be better for recording a loud metal show
Omni, Cardoid, or Binaural?
also
i have the SP-CMC-19s and am looking to upgrade
i have a budget of about $200
[/hijack over]
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I got my CMC-8s 3wire modded..... Metal shows, i am ready again.
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i have both, the sennheiser mm-hlsc-2 and the sp-cmc-8.
they are both great mics!
i like the sennheiser´s sound more, i recorded a local band at my pub some days ago and the bass-drum is just so fat and "kicky" with the sennheisers, not as thin as the sp-cmc-8´ sound.
the senns can handle bass perfectly, it almost sounds like a soundboard recording!
no bass-roll-off needed with the senns!
arni
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You want a three-wire battery box, with either the Senn MKE40 or with the AT853. Both will sound great with the mod. Even if it does not appear to distort, you will see an impovement at moderate levels.
*I* think the Senns sound (a bit) better, but the AT have replaceable caps. Cardioids are fine for most things though.
Get either Church or Hyperplane to solder miniXLRs on and build you a 3-wire battery box.
Richard
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Do you need a battery box to get his results? The specs show they they can be powered with just 1.5v. Ray
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Do you need a battery box to get his results? The specs show they they can be powered with just 1.5v. Ray
Bias voltage has little to do with distortion. Many people are rushing out to get 12 volt battery boxes thinking that they will end up with less distortion, the simple truth is no. There is a difference between 1.5 and 5 volts as far as distortion is concerned but after 5 volts it really does not change much the distortion percentage stays pretty much the same. So if you have a 9 volt battery box your good to go.