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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: Since85 on October 20, 2006, 06:45:27 PM
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We are looking at getting some new stereo fronts. Right now, it is about 98% audio, and 2% 5.1 movies. We are looking at:
B&W 803S, 804
VS VR4 jr
We are old deadheads, and MAINLY listen to GD and other live recordings (over 21 years of masters!), jazz, and classic rock.
The speakers are going in a "pop out" in our living room where the TV, compnents, etc. are. It is about 23" deep, and I have about 8-12" around all sides to place the speakers.
Any other suggestions in this price range?
What type (brand) and configuration speaker wire would you recommend? What is best connection type: spade, banana or bare wire?
Lastly, biwire or biamp? We have a 7 channel amp, and I could use two of the channels to biamp, and still have 5.1.
Thanks for the input to you all :)
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If you're going to spend $5K on a set of speakers, you are going to need more space than that. Speakers are not designed to work in close quarters like what you describe. What kind of 7.1 amp do you have? Have you considered buying a 2 channel amp since the system is mainly for music? I would recommend a quality 2 channel amp (at least $2000) for a set of speakers of that calibur. That and more space. HT amps won't be able to deliver the fidelity that truly high end speakers are capable of delivering.
As for suggestions of speakers, I can't say Living Voice loud enough. The Living Voice Auditorium mk. II's are $4295 msrp. The Avatar mk. II's are $5995. Both are 94 db efficient. They'll need a few feet of space to work at their magic, but you'll find that to be true of other speakers in this price range as well. We're aggressive with our pricing. PM me if you'd like to know more about them.
Chris
edit for link:
http://eugenehifi.com/LivingVoice/htm/Speakers_from_Living_Voice.htm
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^^ I don't know of the living voice first hand (great reviews though) but I've seen lots of good advice come from chris! I can't agree more that with your small enclosure space no $4-5k speaker is not going to shine to it's potential. with your limited 5.1 use I would also invest in a top of the line 2 channel system and use virtual surround (it's come a long way!). What do you run now? amp? speakers? to me I dont think the speakers are what I would spend my money on right now...
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I had the fortune to demo a pair of The Living Voice OBX-R's and they were incredible...I walked out of the room flying high and stating those are the speakers to own when I can afford them.
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Have you looked into Focal, Sonus Faber, Legacy or Linn? These are a few speaker lines that I am very familiar with and can recommend.
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I appreciate all of the input thus far!
We have an Arcam AV-7 amp, so it is easy to biamp the speakers with just a couple of RCA cables....
I got a friends B&W 804's in the spot, and the low end was as round and tight as in is house.
Any other suggestions? What about cabling?
thanks!! :D
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What is your budget on speaker cables?
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Might not deliver the sound your looking for but it's in your price range & on your avatar. ;D
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130036483742&rd=1&rd=1
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Some other brands to keep in mind:
JM lab (same as focal??)
Revel
PMC
Joseph Audio
Harbeth
Dynaudio
Monitor Audio
Energy
Paradigm
Audio Physic
Martin Logan (though dipolar planar speakers will probably not work well with room boundaries that close)
Happy shopping!!
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Definitive Technology.
www.definitivetechnology.com
I've got 7004's and love em to death.. you could do 7002's on that budget, and still have plenty of $ for center and surrounds... and wiring.. depending on what all you decide to go with that is! :)
good luck! new toys rule!
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JM lab (same as focal??)
Yes
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Definitive Technology.
www.definitivetechnology.com
I've got 7004's and love em to death.. you could do 7002's on that budget, and still have plenty of $ for center and surrounds... and wiring.. depending on what all you decide to go with that is! :)
good luck! new toys rule!
Not sure these would be the best choice due to his room contraints. Though DefTech makes some great struff, bi-polar speakers would not work too well in a cut-out in the wall like he seems to be describing
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Definitive Technology.
www.definitivetechnology.com
I've got 7004's and love em to death.. you could do 7002's on that budget, and still have plenty of $ for center and surrounds... and wiring.. depending on what all you decide to go with that is! :)
good luck! new toys rule!
DefTechs do sound amazing, but with a vastly different kind of sound from the B&Ws. I was comparing some B&Ws and DTs at a local store (albeit, some of their less-pricey models). DefTech is much more boomy on the low-end. B&Ws seem to have more punch in the mid-range. It all depends on what you're looking for. I second the mention of Monitor Audio... another good British speaker line, mayb e a sound a lot like the B&W.
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I love my B+W Nautilus 802s...though I use them for mixing/mastering and not for playback..
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Have you considered placing the speakers outside of the cubby hole...keeping only the TV and stereo components tucked away?:
Chris
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If you get a new (or used) amp and go 2 channel, this is a great one. The sale is pending, but they pop up every now and then.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1166314965
http://www.pliniusaudio.com/index.asp
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Wow,
Thanks for all the input again folks! Thbe only problem is that me and my girl live up in the mountains, and it is not reasonable for us to go around chasing dealers 150+ miles away to hear all these brands. However, we heard some Thiel CS2.4s,which were simply amazing! Anyone have experience with these? Also, they do not even recommend biamping/biwiring which will help with the cable budget a bit. I am interested to hear other speakers, but as I said, we do not live near a big city. Any other suggestions? So far, we loved the B&W 803s, and the Thiel CS2.4, but liked the Thiel better, more "airy", just felt damn real (and significantly cheaper)!
Also, the speakers will be placed right at the front of the "pop out" in the living room, so that should help with relections due to the space they will be placed.
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I love my B+W Nautilus 802s...though I use them for mixing/mastering and not for playback..
Just curious, what are your playback speakers?
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Wow,
Thanks for all the input again folks! Thbe only problem is that me and my girl live up in the mountains, and it is not reasonable for us to go around chasing dealers 150+ miles away to hear all these brands. However, we heard some Thiel CS2.4s,which were simply amazing! Anyone have experience with these? Also, they do not even recommend biamping/biwiring which will help with the cable budget a bit. I am interested to hear other speakers, but as I said, we do not live near a big city. Any other suggestions? So far, we loved the B&W 803s, and the Thiel CS2.4, but liked the Thiel better, more "airy", just felt damn real (and significantly cheaper)!
Also, the speakers will be placed right at the front of the "pop out" in the living room, so that should help with relections due to the space they will be placed.
I haven't heard them personally but Thiel has a great reputation and history of excellent speakers. I guess in your situation just listen to whatever is available in your area and go with what sounds best to you. I don't think you can go wrong with either B&W or Thiel.
Take care!
Ben
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Gonna have Nick's 1st Gen VR4s(VSA) and his ICE power amp +Symphonies. He and I made a deal on em. :) Cant wait!
the 802s were intended for playback use by B+W but a lot of Mastering Engineers use them, so I thought id try em
I love my B+W Nautilus 802s...though I use them for mixing/mastering and not for playback..
Just curious, what are your playback speakers?
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the 802s were intended for playback use by B+W but a lot of Mastering Engineers use them, so I thought id try em
I love my B+W Nautilus 802s...though I use them for mixing/mastering and not for playback..
Just curious, what are your playback speakers?
Cool. I've been thinking about picking up some Quad electrostats in the future, I've heard these are a favorite of a lot of mastering engineers too.
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However, we heard some Thiel CS2.4s,which were simply amazing!
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1105thiel/
Looks like these will perform best with a beefy 4-ohm rated power amplifier.
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1105thiel/index4.html
(top paragraph)
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ok...
as a guy who listens to about 80% GD on a daily basis for the past (holy shit) 20 years myself, and as a taper who likes to hear a "live sound".
the Von Schweikerts cant be touched.
for your sized room, the VR2s would rock your world. or, the VR4jr (USED!@!!!) wouldn't suck either. Honestly though, I dig the VR2s.
a FAT manley amp behind them...and you are in Phil Heaven.
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Von Schweikert.
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See sig
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Sonas Faber GPs are very, very nice.
I think they are a better looking speaker, but they dont have the depth or dynamics of the VR2, which would be in the same price range.
the SFs sound thick and dark to me...but in a good way. I wouldn't hesitate to own a pair, but I know I'd end up w/VRs eventually.
I've listened to the GPs extensively over the years at various Tweeters. Most of which were actually in a good sounding room and driven w/decent B&K gear.
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Sonas Faber GPs are very, very nice.
I think they are a better looking speaker, but they dont have the depth or dynamics of the VR2, which would be in the same price range.
the SFs sound thick and dark to me...but in a good way. I wouldn't hesitate to own a pair, but I know I'd end up w/VRs eventually.
I've listened to the GPs extensively over the years at various Tweeters. Most of which were actually in a good sounding room and driven w/decent B&K gear.
I listened to the Sonus Fabers before making my selection. I went with the VR4jrs. I thought the imaging from the VSA line was better.
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oh yea..
the 4jr's blow the doors off of the GPs, no doubt.
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tony Faulkner uses Quads.
My headphones (Stax) are electrostatic. ;D
the 802s were intended for playback use by B+W but a lot of Mastering Engineers use them, so I thought id try em
I love my B+W Nautilus 802s...though I use them for mixing/mastering and not for playback..
Just curious, what are your playback speakers?
Cool. I've been thinking about picking up some Quad electrostats in the future, I've heard these are a favorite of a lot of mastering engineers too.
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oh yea..
the 4jr's blow the doors off of the GPs, no doubt.
Depends on what you listend to.I listed to 50% classical and 50% rock. SF GP's and tubes blow to the doors of VR4jr.s on strings and female vocals. The midrange is sooo buttery on violins. That said... If I hadn't moved back to the city I would have sold my Grand Pianos and picked up a pair of Focal 1027be's. I still may do that at some point but they are $7500.00 retail.
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+T for beating back the VSA junkies!
Chris
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I can see that (the GPs better on classical and vocals), but we are talking about a ROCK BOX for massively loud Grateful Dead.
that said, VSA Junkieness all the way
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oh yea..
the 4jr's blow the doors off of the GPs, no doubt.
Depends on what you listend to.I listed to 50% classical and 50% rock. SF GP's and tubes blow to the doors of VR4jr.s on strings and female vocals. The midrange is sooo buttery on violins. That said... If I hadn't moved back to the city I would have sold my Grand Pianos and picked up a pair of Focal 1027be's. I still may do that at some point but they are $7500.00 retail.
It's interesting you make this point - I took quite a mix of discs with me when I listened to both sets of speakers. Just from memory, I had a Diana Krall disc, Dark Side, Norah Jones, Yo Yo Ma, and some Panic's Light Fuse. I found the VSA lline was the best all around. This is not a slam at all on the SF's, they are awesome speakers - it just proves to me that everyone hears something different!
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the Focals are supposed to be a great rock and roll box as well.
Stereophile called the grand utopia B the "ultimate" in that regard.
but...who's got that spare $65k?
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oh yea..
the 4jr's blow the doors off of the GPs, no doubt.
Depends on what you listend to.I listed to 50% classical and 50% rock. SF GP's and tubes blow to the doors of VR4jr.s on strings and female vocals. The midrange is sooo buttery on violins. That said... If I hadn't moved back to the city I would have sold my Grand Pianos and picked up a pair of Focal 1027be's. I still may do that at some point but they are $7500.00 retail.
It's interesting you make this point - I took quite a mix of discs with me when I listened to both sets of speakers. Just from memory, I had a Diana Krall disc, Dark Side, Norah Jones, Yo Yo Ma, and some Panic's Light Fuse. I found the VSA lline was the best all around. This is not a slam at all on the SF's, they are awesome speakers - it just proves to me that everyone hears something different!
Of course! I'll admit I work for a company that used to sell SF speakers. When you get new speakers at 50% of new retail they sound more appealing (Focal probably has the best dealer accom out there at 65% off new so 1027be's are 3K..... Hmmm anyone want to buy a pair of *mint* Grand Piano's in black? 1900.00 ;D ) But also I listended to a ton of stuff before I droped even that modest sum for my speaks. It isn't just what you listen to but what you drive them with. Sonus Faber + all tubes + SACD or DVD-A = classical music heaven.... rock is ok but it's a dark balance going in. I've listended to Carl's VR4jr and BAT more than once and I love it! I just don't know if it would be my chioce.
On the other hand I was listening to my 10/22/06 Panic DVD-A at wotk on a Krell stack with Martin Logan Vantages (one step below Summits) and it was frikking amazing! ML speakers always S U C K E D on live recordings but these puppies put you right there. My OPs manager, that is not into this stuff at all, was completely floored by what he heard. He could noot believe that such a sound was possible both from a live recording and also from a home stereo.... I was close to agreeing with him and I do this stuff every day.
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oh yea..
the 4jr's blow the doors off of the GPs, no doubt.
Depends on what you listend to.I listed to 50% classical and 50% rock. SF GP's and tubes blow to the doors of VR4jr.s on strings and female vocals. The midrange is sooo buttery on violins. That said... If I hadn't moved back to the city I would have sold my Grand Pianos and picked up a pair of Focal 1027be's. I still may do that at some point but they are $7500.00 retail.
It's interesting you make this point - I took quite a mix of discs with me when I listened to both sets of speakers. Just from memory, I had a Diana Krall disc, Dark Side, Norah Jones, Yo Yo Ma, and some Panic's Light Fuse. I found the VSA lline was the best all around. This is not a slam at all on the SF's, they are awesome speakers - it just proves to me that everyone hears something different!
Of course! I'll admit I work for a company that used to sell SF speakers. When you get new speakers at 50% of new retail they sound more appealing (Focal probably has the best dealer accom out there at 65% off new so 1027be's are 3K..... Hmmm anyone want to buy a pair of *mint* Grand Piano's in black? 1900.00 ;D ) But also I listended to a ton of stuff before I droped even that modest sum for my speaks. It isn't just what you listen to but what you drive them with. Sonus Faber + all tubes + SACD or DVD-A = classical music heaven.... rock is ok but it's a dark balance going in. I've listended to Carl's VR4jr and BAT more than once and I love it! I just don't know if it would be my chioce.
On the other hand I was listening to my 10/22/06 Panic DVD-A at wotk on a Krell stack with Martin Logan Vantages (one step below Summits) and it was frikking amazing! ML speakers always S U C K E D on live recordings but these puppies put you right there. My OPs manager, that is not into this stuff at all, was completely floored by what he heard. He could noot believe that such a sound was possible both from a live recording and also from a home stereo.... I was close to agreeing with him and I do this stuff every day.
I push 100w of pure tubes per channel thru my 4jr's with a pair of Manley Snappers. I have been extremely pleased with my results on anything from a live Panic show to Thelonius Monk playing solo. To each his own... :)
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If you listening space is a compromise, I think it will diminish the gains as you spend more and more on speakers.
I paid $1300 for my VR4 gen I's on Audiogon (like new) and for the music you're playing it would be very hard to beat them. There is a reason a lot of people like VSA.
I could turn around and easily sell them for what I paid. Without a doubt the VR4jr's look better (haven't heard them). So you very well may wish to spend more to get a better appearance. On the other hand, I actually like that the VR4's aren't covered with delicate wood veneer.
I still have my Martin Logan CLS in the basement listening room.. I bought them new around '88 (initial panels were bad and replaced under warranty about 6 mos later). Hard to beat the level of detail from a good electrostatic. It really spoiled me. For years and years I found most cone speakers too muddy in general and lacking in soundstage. I'd rather have no bass than muddy bass.. I've seen lots of expensive speakers come and go from the market since then.
You might try regular audiogon searches by zipcode to see if anything interesting pops up nearby.
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You might try regular audiogon searches by zipcode to see if anything interesting pops up nearby.
I do this all the time...great way to get to hear what speakers sound like before investing any coin
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Well if anyone is in the Chicago area and wants to hear my setup at any time drop me a line. My room here is less than ideal (I had to find a place to rent within a week of moving back to Chicago... I'll have a better room when I buy a place next spring).. also I'll be happy to play any of the systems at work like the Krell / ML for comparison.
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we heard some Thiel CS2.4s,which were simply amazing! Anyone have experience with these? Also, they do not even recommend biamping/biwiring which will help with the cable budget a bit. I am interested to hear other speakers, but as I said, we do not live near a big city. Any other suggestions? So far, we loved the B&W 803s, and the Thiel CS2.4, but liked the Thiel better, more "airy", just felt damn real (and significantly cheaper)!
I ran Thiel CS2s for several years. Thiels are very nice speakers. I have VS4JRs now and love them but I have to admit that the 20yo Thiels at 1/5th the price were unbelieveable and in some ways more appealing than the VSA speakers. The VSA speakers are like seeing through clear clean glass that disappears. When the Thiels are set up correctly, it's like there is no glass. The Thiels were extremely revealing of the upstream source, maybe more so that the VSAs. When I make changes to equipment or wires, I can hear the difference with the VSAs but not as striking a difference as I could hear with the Thiels.
The the problem I had with the Thiels is that they were painfully revealing and they were very intolerant of poor upstream components and poor recordings. They need a lot of reserved power to be driven correctly, a lot more power than the VSAs. 120wpc doubled down will just barely get you going. The only time I had enough power was when I was running a 240wpc SS amp that would double current for 4ohm and 2ohm loads. That precluded me using a tube amp within my budget. They can be painfully bright if they are in a poor room. I never could get my GF to give in on room treatments, so I could never eliminate the brightness. They were very picky about placement and I was forever tweaking their positioning. Ultimately, I stopped listening to the music and just listened to the speakers, so they had to go.
Before committing to the VR4JRs, I auditioned some of the CS2.4s and I heard all the same things I heard in the CS2, good and bad, although they are a better speaker. I've read some people think the CS2.2 was the best of the 2 series and they avoid the 2.3 and 2.4 revisions. I think if you check the archives on audiogon, most long time Thiel users prefer the 3.6 to the newer 2.4, though ymmv. Since I've had the VR4JRs, I've been back listening to the music and the recording. I've completely stopped fussing with placement.
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Still not happy VSA moved cabinet build to China........