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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: nathan fairbairn on December 15, 2006, 07:00:51 PM
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Hey, all. Total noob here. Not an audio guy at all. But my wife is a freelance radio reporter and I want to buy her a nice recorder and mic for X-mas. After doing as much research as I can stand, I'm thinking the H4 coupled with a good condenser mic, most likely the AKG 1000-s, would suit her needs, and would constitute good value. Basically she needs to be able record radio-quality interviews in all manner of locations and environments, as well as maybe some ambient noise. She has a mac.
Sorry for the noob post, but I'd sure appreciate someone telling me if I'm making a mistake. Thanks in advance guys, and Merry Christmas!
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MHO - this unit will do that job. But, also MHO, the Edirol R-09 is simpler to use. Practically point-and-shoot.
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With a real mic like the C1000s that has an XLR connection and can run off phantom power, the H4 is actually a lot easier to use than something like the R9.
Since your wife uses a Mac, get her a USB SD card reader ($15) as for some reason the Zoom H4 is limited to USB 1.0 transfer speeds when used with a Mac.
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With a real mic like the C1000s that has an XLR connection and can run off phantom power, the H4 is actually a lot easier to use than something like the R9.
Since your wife uses a Mac, get her a USB SD card reader ($15) as for some reason the Zoom H4 is limited to USB 1.0 transfer speeds when used with a Mac.
Great advice! Thanks so much, Will and Frosty! Anyone else got words of wisdom for me?
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So many good choices, eh?
Which reminds me, I do have an H-4 and the +48v drives a Rhode NT1A and Octava MK-12 mics just fine. My XLR cables are all 20+ feet, less than ideal to carry around for field recording! Can anyone recommend a good source of short length mic cables?
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what kind of quality of cables you looking for? budget?
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Can anyone recommend a good source of short length mic cables?
http://www.kindkables.com/catalog/default.php (http://www.kindkables.com/catalog/default.php)
For your custom cable needs ;D
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Hey! So I bought the Zoom H4 and my wife loved it, but I'm testing it out now and I can't seem to figure out a way to record in stereo (or on two tracks, I guess) in stereo mode with only the one microphone. It only records in the left or right channel, and the other has this irritating high-pitched whine in the other. Do I need to record in 4-track mode and then bounce the one track onto two later? That seems excessively complicated, but I've read the manual and screwed around with it for a couple of hours now and I'm getting frustrated. Any more excellent advice for a guy who clearly doesn't know what he's doing?
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The stereo mode is intended for making a stereo recording with two microphones simultaneously. If you can only use one microphone at a time I think the bouncing option is the only possibility.
It would probably be easier to download Audacity (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/, free) or Sound Studio (http://www.freeverse.com/soundstudio/ may have already come with your Mac) and edit together separate "stereo" recordings later, on the computer. Garage Band can probably do this to but I've never really used it.
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Thanks. My wife is confused, though, because she has used a minidisc before and it records in stereo. Or does it just record in "stereo"? I mean, is it even possible to record in true stereo with only one microphone? Does a minisdisc and other devices that record in stereo with only one microphone actually just always double up a mono track and bill it as "stereo"? Thanks for humoring a noob. I'd love to figure this out for my wife and I really appreciate the help.
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What kind of microphone was she using with a minidisc? It is possible to use a stereo microphone, which is really two microphone capsules in a single body. A lot of minidiscs come with a cheap stereo mic like this.
With a single AKGC100s, you cannot record true stereo. You could open up a track in an editing program and copy the recorded track over to the other channel as well, but that would be dual mono rather than stereo. It's also possible that the minidisc does this automatically if fed a mono signal.
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Interesting. She's not sure what kind of microphone she used with the minidisc -- it was just the mic provided by the CBC. Maybe it was a stereo mic. Can you recommend a good condenser stereo mic? Although it wouldn't help with the H4, since it takes the signal from one XLR input and always records it in mono, right? Speaking of stereo mics, what's your opinion of the built-in mics the H4 comes with? Do you know if the Microtrack or the Edirol record in true stereo? Sorry for asking so many questions, but my dad always told me that if I didn't know an answer I should ask someone smarter than me. ;)
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Speaking of stereo mics, what's your opinion of the built-in mics the H4 comes with?
I think the built-in stereo mics sound very good!
Can you recommend a good condenser stereo mic? Although it wouldn't help with the H4, since it takes the signal from one XLR input and always records it in mono, right?
Another option might be an AT822, self powered by one AA battery, it comes with a cable that splits the left/right channels into to 1/4" TR phono plugs which can go into the jacks at the bottom of the H-4. (Those XLR inputs allow 1/4 TR and, I think, TRS plugs as well.) Couldn't say whether or not the fidelity would be better than the built-in mics, though.
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Stereo recording is capturing two independent signals and storing each in a single track - one left, one right. For stereo recording you need either <1> a single microphone that uses two diaphragms inside a single enclosure, usually referred to as a single point stereo mic, or <2> a pair of (mono) microphones each with a single diaphragm. Examples of single point stereo mics: Rode NT4, Audio Technica 822, Studio Projects LSD2, AKG 422 / 426, AKG C34. Most other mics used here are pairs of single mics. Doubling up the signal from a signal mic so the same signal is on both the left and right is just dual mono, not stereo.
Most of the recorders used by people here are 2-ch or 4-ch recorders. They all record stereo, or even two stereo pairs. The H4 will record in stereo, as will the M-Audio MicroTrack, Edirol R09 and R-4 (4 channels), Marantz PMD-671 and -660, Tascam HD-P2, Sound Devices 722 and 744 (4 channels), etc.
Most recorders with XLR, RCA, or 1/4" inputs are set up so that each input connector records a single channel - only left, or only right. Recorders with mini-connectors (like the mic-in on the MicroTrack, the R09, iRiver Hx00, JB3, etc.) record a stereo signal - both left and right channels - via the single connector.
In order to get a stereo recording with the H4, you need to send it a stereo signal, i.e. an independent left channel and an independent right channel. One may do so either by using two (mono) mics as noted above, or by using a single point stereo mic that has two outputs. Some single point stereo mics output over a pair of XLR or 1/4" connectors, and some output over a single stereo-mini connector. If the latter, then you'll need adapters to convert the stereo-mini connector to a pair of XLR connectors for inputting to the H4 (or a pair of mono 1/4" connectors if the H4 uses dual XLR-1/4" connectors).
We really need to know the mic in use in order to provide more specific info about how (or whether or not it's possible) to capture a stereo recording with the gear in question.
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[looks like Frosty and Brian beat me to some of this, but it's already typed out so....]
I haven't used the built in mics of the H4 much, but they are better than I expected in limited use. Can sound pretty decent actually, give them a try.
In terms of stereo mics, most will output to two XLRs (or two 1/4" plugs, which will also work with the H4). The H4 can record in stereo, as long as you feed it two inputs.
So it's a matter of how much you want to spend. My opinion:
< $200 - don't bother. Just use the built in mics, or record in mono with the one AKG (you could always get a second one, although a stereo mic can be more convenient).
250 look at the Audio Technica AT822. It runs off an internal battery (be sure to turn Phantom power OFF on the H4) but includes a cable with two 1/4" plugs on it, perfect for plugging into the H4.
350 look at the Audio Technica AT825. Similar to the AT822, but runs on phantom power and has XLR connections.
450 - the Rode NT4 may offer a slight improvement over the Audio Technicas, or not, depending on your tastes. The Rode does seem to roll off the high end more than I like, from the recordings I've heard with it.
600 - the Studio Projects LSD2 has a lot of fans. It's big and heavy (for a mic) though.
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Wow. Great information. You folks sure know your stuff. So it sounds like we have a couple options:
1) Keep the system we have now and just use an audio editing program to double up the mono track into dual mono.
2) Keep the H4 and trade in her AKG C1000s. Buy the AT822, which will output to two 1/4" plugs and allow my wife to record in stereo.
3) Buy the AT825 -- not sure if the dual XLR connections are worth the increase in price, though...
4) Trade in the lot and buy a recorder with mini-connectors, such as the microtrack. I'm a bit confused by this, though. Brian wrote that "Recorders with mini-connectors (like the mic-in on the MicroTrack, the R09, iRiver Hx00, JB3, etc.) record a stereo signal - both left and right channels - via the single connector." Am I right in presuming that I still need a stereo mic for this, just not necessarily one that outputs to two XLRs or two 1/4" plugs? Aside from the 1 input vs. 2 inputs to record stereo, is there an advantage to this option? Compare, for example, the microtrack to the H4.
I'm leaning towards option 2, as it's the simplest and cheapest option and makes sense to my limited understanding. What do you guys think?
Thanks again, you guys rule!
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Going back to your original post, I see she's using this for radio-quality interviews. I'd stick with the built-in mics on the H4 for a while, see how well they work for her. They seem ideal for hand-held interview recordings. If she identifies something lacking with the internal mics for her interviews after using them for a while, then I'd think about getting an additional mic depending on what she finds lacking in the H4's built-in mic performance.
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Interesting. She's not sure what kind of microphone she used with the minidisc -- it was just the mic provided by the CBC.
It was probably an SM57 or a Senn shotgun. The reason she was able to record in stereo on the minidisc player was because the Audio Systems dept at the Ceeb doctors up all of the minidisc recorders to make them foolproof. They rig them up with an XLR > stereo mini cable that cannot be removed (unplugged, yes but not removed). It's simplistic but it comes in handy with all of the casuals that go in and out of there without ever receiving the training they need.
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It was probably an SM57 or a Senn shotgun. The reason she was able to record in stereo on the minidisc player was because the Audio Systems dept at the Ceeb doctors up all of the minidisc recorders to make them foolproof. They rig them up with an XLR > stereo mini cable that cannot be removed (unplugged, yes but not removed). It's simplistic but it comes in handy with all of the casuals that go in and out of there without ever receiving the training they need.
Ha! That sure sounds like my wife. Training = zero. Oh wait, I think someone once told her to get a good grip on the mic and not change it during taping and to try to find a quiet room. In truth, most of her producers I e-mailed on the sly while researching her gift didn't really seem to have received appropriate training either (one described himself as "freelancer with a desk").
Anyway, regarding the technical aspects of your post, am I right in understanding that what the CBC uses (and what my wife has been recording for two years) has not been true stereo, but rather dual mono? While researching, I looked at both of the mics you mentioned, and I'm pretty sure neither is a single point stereo mic, right? And you can't truly record in stereo without a stereo mic, right? Does that mean that dual mono is sufficient for the CBC's purposes and she doesn't need to worry about recording in true stereo? I feel I'm getting really close to the answers we need. Thanks so much for answering!
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I would think the kind of condensers we use around these parts for recording music would be the LAST MIC IN THE WORLD you'd want to use for interviews. I say this because I'm assuming you'll be hand-holding the mic a lot, which will produce ridiculous amounts of handling noise on the mics we typically use. You need a good hand-held ENG interview mic IMHO, not an uber-sensative small condenser. That said, two small diaphram condensers using a hypercardioid pattern mounted STANDS pointing directly towards each person could sound fabulous, but def not if hand held. It could also work on the end of a boompole (even a short one), but you need a SERIOUSLY GOOD shockmount, and you need to know how to use a boompole (probably with gloves on). The alternative is a good, field-proven, dynamic mic that is well isolated with almost no handling noise -- there are many to choose from in the under-$200 range.
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It was probably an SM57 or a Senn shotgun. The reason she was able to record in stereo on the minidisc player was because the Audio Systems dept at the Ceeb doctors up all of the minidisc recorders to make them foolproof. They rig them up with an XLR > stereo mini cable that cannot be removed (unplugged, yes but not removed). It's simplistic but it comes in handy with all of the casuals that go in and out of there without ever receiving the training they need.
Anyway, regarding the technical aspects of your post, am I right in understanding that what the CBC uses (and what my wife has been recording for two years) has not been true stereo, but rather dual mono? While researching, I looked at both of the mics you mentioned, and I'm pretty sure neither is a single point stereo mic, right? And you can't truly record in stereo without a stereo mic, right? Does that mean that dual mono is sufficient for the CBC's purposes and she doesn't need to worry about recording in true stereo? I feel I'm getting really close to the answers we need. Thanks so much for answering!
Anything on Radio One goes out in mono. Even if she were to record in stereo and do a perfect mix of a gripping pak on Belinda Stronach (on the left channel) and Tie Domi (on the right channel).... the gizmos and doo-dads in Master Control would collapse it down to mono anyway. So she has no use for stereo recording unless she's doing work for Radio Two (which goes out in stereo).
You do, however, need the audio on both channels (for the folks in the sticks using radios built in the 1930s) hence the dual mono minidisc recorders at the Ceeb. Incidentally, they're in the process of being replaced by the Marantz 671 so tell your wife not to get too comfy with those beat up old Sonys.
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I would think the kind of condensers we use around these parts for recording music would be the LAST MIC IN THE WORLD you'd want to use for interviews. I say this because I'm assuming you'll be hand-holding the mic a lot, which will produce ridiculous amounts of handling noise on the mics we typically use. You need a good hand-held ENG interview mic IMHO, not an uber-sensative small condenser. That said, two small diaphram condensers using a hypercardioid pattern mounted STANDS pointing directly towards each person could sound fabulous, but def not if hand held. It could also work on the end of a boompole (even a short one), but you need a SERIOUSLY GOOD shockmount, and you need to know how to use a boompole (probably with gloves on). The alternative is a good, field-proven, dynamic mic that is well isolated with almost no handling noise -- there are many to choose from in the under-$200 range.
AH. I listened to a lot of comparative tests with the H4 and several mics, and everything I heard and read made me think the sound was clearly better with a condenser mic, but didn't consider that all of those tests were probably done with a stationary mic (probably in a closed room or studio). I never considered the practicality of a handheld mic for interviews and the sounds you get from jostling. (Then again, I haven't noticed much noise from the C1000s I've got now). I'll definitely go home and run it through some jostling and see how much noise it generates. The dynamic mics I considered were the Electovoice (can't remember the model number, I'm afraid) and the SM57. Maybe that's all I need! Thanks!
Anything on Radio One goes out in mono. Even if she were to record in stereo and do a perfect mix of a gripping pak on Belinda Stronach (on the left channel) and Tie Domi (on the right channel).... the gizmos and doo-dads in Master Control would collapse it down to mono anyway. So she has no use for stereo recording unless she's doing work for Radio Two (which goes out in stereo).
You do, however, need the audio on both channels (for the folks in the sticks using radios built in the 1930s) hence the dual mono minidisc recorders at the Ceeb. Incidentally, they're in the process of being replaced by the Marantz 671 so tell your wife not to get too comfy with those beat up old Sonys.
Thanks so much! So, stereo recording is not necessary for CBC Radio 1 -- that's the answer I've been waiting for all day! Great! And I looked at the PMD660 and 671, but for the price difference, I couldn't see enough advantage to them over the H4 to justify the expense. Do you disagree?
Again, thanks a ton for helping a guy out. I'm really out of my depth here and I'm just trying to make sure I got my girl the right Christmas gift. I swear next year she's getting books!
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You need an Electro-Voice RE-50B (black) mic. It's noise (handling) isolated and is the main mic you'll see used handheld by radio and TV journalists in the field. I've used them forever for broadcast interviewing.
http://www.electrovoice.com/products/105.html
http://www.bswusa.com/proditem.asp?item=RE50B
http://www.bigdmc.com/re50b.html