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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: WiFiJeff on March 09, 2007, 04:07:45 PM
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I took my MR1 for a ride this afternoon, setting up a pair of Josephson C617s with Gefell large diameter caps (MK102.1), baffled with GuySonic's "LiteGuy" going into an SD722, with the unbalanced analog tape-out from the 722 going to the Korg. Both recordings sound great, but when I went to compare them in Wavelab I got the following: the 722 recording at 24/192 looks like a normal tape, but the MR1 DSF recording run through AudioGate to be 24/192 wav, though it sounds fine, comes out looking fat and fuzzy, even the silent parts have a fuzz that runs to almost 50% of the signal though I hear nothing. Looks like some sort of low frequency artifact, but when I tried exporting the DSD from Audiogate at 16/44.1 it looks normal. At 24/96 the fuzz is faintly there, the silent parts not quite a nice line like the direct 722 tape and the 16/44.1 export.
Anybody got a clue what this is? Or how to get rid of it? Anyone else try exporting to 24/192?
Jeff
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Here's one more weirdness. When I downsample and dither the 24/192 file to 16/44.1 in Wavelab, it comes out looking normal, as well.
Jeff
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hmmm...i haven't tried converting to 24bit anything yet.
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Maybe try a brief recording with the korg and no mics and see if you can repeat? I'm sure korg will be confused if you send them a problem case that involves the 722...
If you can post a tiny sample of the 24/192, I'd be curious to see it. I'd suggest an FFT to see what freq it is (I like baudline for that but it is linux only). My guess is that something with the high freq filtering isn't right in the conversion to 192.
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Isn't there a DSD filter option in the MR-1 menu? Could be related to this. Is there a similar option on AudioGate? You could try using DiscWelder Chrome II to do the DSD conversion to PCM to see if you get the same results (pm me if interested).
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Isn't there a Korg "rep" registered on here? Can't he help with any or all of these questions?
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Isn't there a DSD filter option in the MR-1 menu? Could be related to this. Is there a similar option on AudioGate? You could try using DiscWelder Chrome II to do the DSD conversion to PCM to see if you get the same results (pm me if interested).
Yes, you have a choice of three. I left it at the default, #1, which seems to do the most hf cutting. I don't see such an option in AudioGate.
I ran the Korg tonight in my pocket with a DPA4060 set into the MMA6000 preamp, same gunk (inaudible) when I convert to pcm 192/24. By the way, it runs really HOT in a pocket, sort of adds an edge to a classical
cello recital to be anticipating I'll burst onto flame at any minute. It is certainly high frequency stuff, since a quick and dirty eq at 20kH down 15 dB gets rid of a whole lot of it. I have DiskWelder Steel, Chrome is a rather pricy upgrade but if it fixes this it may be worth it to me, I'll have a look.
Jeff
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I ran mine tonight for MMW. Ran V3>analog out> MR1 and everything is distorted or brickwalled. The levels on the MR1 were never over -12. I was never overloading on the V3 so I assume I feed the MR1 to hot a signal.
I was also sending a digi signal to the JB3 and MT and this sounds fine.
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I ran mine tonight for MMW. Ran V3>analog out> MR1 and everything is distorted or brickwalled. The levels on the MR1 were never over -12. I was never overloading on the V3 so I assume I feed the MR1 to hot a signal.
I was also sending a digi signal to the JB3 and MT and this sounds fine.
Where did you set the levels? The DPA mics I use are pretty hot, I used 20 dB of gain on the MMA6000, and set the line-in internal gain at 0 dB, this is about the same gain I need for the Sonosax MiniR82 set to hit 0 dB at 0 dBu. I can't imagine brickwalling unless you set the line-in levels way down to adjust for the very hot V3 output, or hit mic in by mistake.
Jeff
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when i used mine the other night, I ran line in -12db coming from an apogee MMP. I had the gain there running fairly hot, and the "output" setting at 0 (a nice feature of that preamp).
My levels were pretty accurate. man, those suckers are FAST on the Korg. watch those peaks. the levels can look like they are -6db all the time, but the peaks are 0 and over.
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Isn't there a DSD filter option in the MR-1 menu? Could be related to this. Is there a similar option on AudioGate? You could try using DiscWelder Chrome II to do the DSD conversion to PCM to see if you get the same results (pm me if interested).
Yes, you have a choice of three. I left it at the default, #1, which seems to do the most hf cutting. I don't see such an option in AudioGate.
I ran the Korg tonight in my pocket with a DPA4060 set into the MMA6000 preamp, same gunk (inaudible) when I convert to pcm 192/24. By the way, it runs really HOT in a pocket, sort of adds an edge to a classical
cello recital to be anticipating I'll burst onto flame at any minute. It is certainly high frequency stuff, since a quick and dirty eq at 20kH down 15 dB gets rid of a whole lot of it. I have DiskWelder Steel, Chrome is a rather pricy upgrade but if it fixes this it may be worth it to me, I'll have a look.
Jeff
Hey Jeff if you can send me the file I can take a look at it I only need about 10 seconds worth. I can analyze the audio and calculate the noise floor.
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and everything is distorted or brickwalled.
Bummer! I'd suggest testing... stereo > v3 > mr1.. Run the stereo output low (if possible, you may have to use a headphone out) and step the gain up on the v3 gradually to see when problems begin... If you were also running the mt, that would provide a reference for the total gain, etc.. I'm sure folks would be interested in those recordings.
I had the gain set to 35 on the V3, and the MR-1 set at -20. I was also running digi out and was more concerned with that than with the analog out. How hot is the analog out on the V3? Isn't there an internal jumper to take some of the heat off the analog outputs?
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I took my MR1 for a ride this afternoon, setting up a pair of Josephson C617s with Gefell large diameter caps (MK102.1), baffled with GuySonic's "LiteGuy" going into an SD722, with the unbalanced analog tape-out from the 722 going to the Korg. Both recordings sound great, but when I went to compare them in Wavelab I got the following: the 722 recording at 24/192 looks like a normal tape, but the MR1 DSF recording run through AudioGate to be 24/192 wav, though it sounds fine, comes out looking fat and fuzzy, even the silent parts have a fuzz that runs to almost 50% of the signal though I hear nothing. Looks like some sort of low frequency artifact, but when I tried exporting the DSD from Audiogate at 16/44.1 it looks normal. At 24/96 the fuzz is faintly there, the silent parts not quite a nice line like the direct 722 tape and the 16/44.1 export.
Anybody got a clue what this is? Or how to get rid of it? Anyone else try exporting to 24/192?
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
It sounds to me like the conversion to PCM is not applying any anti-alias filtering.
I don't know too much about DSD, but PCM requires filtering to remove frequencies that will wrap. What makes me think that this is it, is when you mentioned sample rate conversion to 44.1 which sounds fine. And applying eq at 20kHz makes it sound ok also.
What happens when you take the 192kHz file and sample rate convert to 96Khz ?
(All SRC requires filtering as does any A>D pcm sampling)
Gordon
P.S. The other possibility is that DC offset is also involved. Typically I think, low frequency filtering solves this problem, but if present in your audio, it could be coming back as an alias high frequency after conversion to pcm. (Just a guess, of course.)
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Hi Jeff,
It sounds to me like the conversion to PCM is not applying any anti-alias filtering.
I don't know too much about DSD, but PCM requires filtering to remove frequencies that will wrap. What makes me think that this is it, is when you mentioned sample rate conversion to 44.1 which sounds fine. And applying eq at 20kHz makes it sound ok also.
What happens when you take the 192kHz file and sample rate convert to 96Khz ?
(All SRC requires filtering as does any A>D pcm sampling)
Gordon
P.S. The other possibility is that DC offset is also involved. Typically I think, low frequency filtering solves this problem, but if present in your audio, it could be coming back as an alias high frequency after conversion to pcm. (Just a guess, of course.)
There is a setting in AudioGate to do a DC cut, this does not seem to have any effect on the exported wav. I get rid of the gunk both by exporting from DSD directly to 16/44.1 and by exporting to 24/192 and then downsampling and dithering to 16/44.1. It would be nice to have a DSD to wav export engine that took care of this rather than just trying to throw out everything, otherwise I don't see the advantage to DSD as a "future proof" solution.
Jeff
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and everything is distorted or brickwalled.
Bummer! I'd suggest testing... stereo > v3 > mr1.. Run the stereo output low (if possible, you may have to use a headphone out) and step the gain up on the v3 gradually to see when problems begin... If you were also running the mt, that would provide a reference for the total gain, etc.. I'm sure folks would be interested in those recordings.
I had the gain set to 35 on the V3, and the MR-1 set at -20. I was also running digi out and was more concerned with that than with the analog out. How hot is the analog out on the V3? Isn't there an internal jumper to take some of the heat off the analog outputs?
from the grace manual
INPUT ATTENUATOR JUMPERS Jumpers J3 and J4 select the 20dB input attenuator for channel 1. Jumpers J14 and J15 select the 20dB input attenuator for channel 2. These should be set for –20dB when the V3 is to be used with professional line level input signals.
this, however, is an input attenuator which will also reduce the output digi signal.. so no, I dont think there is internal jumpers for the analog output..
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I took my MR1 for a ride this afternoon, setting up a pair of Josephson C617s with Gefell large diameter caps (MK102.1), baffled with GuySonic's "LiteGuy" going into an SD722, with the unbalanced analog tape-out from the 722 going to the Korg. Both recordings sound great, but when I went to compare them in Wavelab I got the following: the 722 recording at 24/192 looks like a normal tape, but the MR1 DSF recording run through AudioGate to be 24/192 wav, though it sounds fine, comes out looking fat and fuzzy, even the silent parts have a fuzz that runs to almost 50% of the signal though I hear nothing. Looks like some sort of low frequency artifact, but when I tried exporting the DSD from Audiogate at 16/44.1 it looks normal. At 24/96 the fuzz is faintly there, the silent parts not quite a nice line like the direct 722 tape and the 16/44.1 export.
Anybody got a clue what this is? Or how to get rid of it? Anyone else try exporting to 24/192?
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
It sounds to me like the conversion to PCM is not applying any anti-alias filtering.
I don't know too much about DSD, but PCM requires filtering to remove frequencies that will wrap. What makes me think that this is it, is when you mentioned sample rate conversion to 44.1 which sounds fine. And applying eq at 20kHz makes it sound ok also.
What happens when you take the 192kHz file and sample rate convert to 96Khz ?
(All SRC requires filtering as does any A>D pcm sampling)
Gordon
P.S. The other possibility is that DC offset is also involved. Typically I think, low frequency filtering solves this problem, but if present in your audio, it could be coming back as an alias high frequency after conversion to pcm. (Just a guess, of course.)
I think it might be that there is a high pass and low pass but because of the wide sampling rate they are much lower then the normal 44.1k that we are used to hearing so you might have something that is producing low frequency noise that you never noticed before but because of the extreme sampling rate are now able to hear.
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remember,... there is more software out there than this hokey thing. something will turn up.
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I think it might be that there is a high pass and low pass but because of the wide sampling rate they are much lower then the normal 44.1k that we are used to hearing so you might have something that is producing low frequency noise that you never noticed before but because of the extreme sampling rate are now able to hear.
I record at 24/96 all the time and I don't think that is the issue.
The filtering is critical when downsampling.. This site is pretty interesting in that regard:
http://www.unipv.it/webcib/res_techtest_uk.html
This is truly eye-opening. I'm not sure the Korg would have interested me at all if I saw the HUGE increase in noise levels out in the hf area. Even at 192 wav direct it looks lame, but the Audiogate conversion is really bizarely bad, I wonder how much improvement better software would give.
Jeff
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I think it might be that there is a high pass and low pass but because of the wide sampling rate they are much lower then the normal 44.1k that we are used to hearing so you might have something that is producing low frequency noise that you never noticed before but because of the extreme sampling rate are now able to hear.
I record at 24/96 all the time and I don't think that is the issue.
The filtering is critical when downsampling.. This site is pretty interesting in that regard:
http://www.unipv.it/webcib/res_techtest_uk.html
This is truly eye-opening. I'm not sure the Korg would have interested me at all if I saw the HUGE increase in noise levels out in the hf area. Even at 192 wav direct it looks lame, but the Audiogate conversion is really bizarely bad, I wonder how much improvement better software would give.
Jeff
I think that there must be a way to get the software you have to work properly if not then this unit is junk I mean after spending $700 I want this thing to wipe my ass never mind sound good. So I hope its just an issue of something not setup right in the software. This might sound like a stupid idea but maybe you should uninstall the software and reinstall it? and then try recording again?
Chris Church
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I think that there must be a way to get the software you have to work properly if not then this unit is junk I mean after spending $700 I want this thing to wipe my ass never mind sound good. So I hope its just an issue of something not setup right in the software. This might sound like a stupid idea but maybe you should uninstall the software and reinstall it? and then try recording again?
Chris Church
Same results with AudioGate on three separate computers!
Jeff
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I think that there must be a way to get the software you have to work properly if not then this unit is junk I mean after spending $700 I want this thing to wipe my ass never mind sound good.
Well said! $700 does set extremely high expectations.
Whatever happened to the dude who has been hyping this thing for months - sight unseen - just because it has dsd?
As far as other dsd software... I've heard it is all insanely priced.. I hope someone discovers otherwise.
I believe it can record in native PCM. Anyone tried that at 24/96 or 24/192?
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I record at 24/96 all the time and I don't think that is the issue.
The filtering is critical when downsampling.. This site is pretty interesting in that regard:
http://www.unipv.it/webcib/res_techtest_uk.html
According to Gianni Pavan's graphs, the MR-1 is quite noisy when DSD is converted to 192kHz using the software. The noise level is up to -60db at 96kHz.
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for me, the ability to do DSD>redbook and have it come out as nice as it appears to, is money well spent.
the .DFF files backed up for future use...i'm sure they'll come back into play eventually.
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According to Gianni Pavan's graphs, the MR-1 is quite noisy when DSD is converted to 192kHz using the software. The noise level is up to -60db at 96kHz.
The funny thing is... When I posted that I link I hadn't noticed that he has already added the MR-1 to the results! I thought it was useful enough even without the MR-1 data..
The data show the Korg has issues even when recording to PCM... I'd bet some money that if you took the Korg DSD and used the Tascam DSD>PCM software, you'd probably still see issues.. My gut says the problems here are not limited to just the audiogate software. Just a hunch.
I don't have any skin in this game but someone who does should formally open a support case with Korg, cite those test results, and ask them what they're going to do.. Hopefully their response isn't to threaten the tester for publishing the data... And if people wait patiently for a fix but the fix never comes, will they still issue refunds?
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I have a theory its still early and I am going to wait until I get the test file before I say this 100% but I think some of this noise is from the power supply on this unit. Lets face it all of these products use some form of charge pump power supplies to boost the battery voltage up to operate this unit. I think that some of this extra noise is or could be from this process. One way to find out is to create files that are 44.1 48k 96k 192k and then the highest sample rate and compare the signal to noise ratio. I would suspect that this increase in noise is directly proportional to the increased bandwidth due to the increased sample rates. Because of a noisy internal power supply. This is my best guess I hope I am wrong about this.
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I have a theory its still early and I am going to wait until I get the test file before I say this 100% but I think some of this noise is from the power supply on this unit. Lets face it all of these products use some form of charge pump power supplies to boost the battery voltage up to operate this unit. I think that some of this extra noise is or could be from this process. One way to find out is to create files that are 44.1 48k 96k 192k and then the highest sample rate and compare the signal to noise ratio. I would suspect that this increase in noise is directly proportional to the increased bandwidth due to the increased sample rates. Because of a noisy internal power supply. This is my best guess I hope I am wrong about this.
Hello Chris,
I think the graphs show much better performance with the DSD recordings. It seems like the conversion process is what may be adding the noise.
Gordon
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I think the graphs show much better performance with the DSD recordings. It seems like the conversion process is what may be adding the noise.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? :P
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I think the graphs show much better performance with the DSD recordings. It seems like the conversion process is what may be adding the noise.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? :P
I need to get my hands on one of these to do some tests...
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I am feeling a bit better, as the cello recital sounds pretty good on CD. I went DSD > 24/96 by AudioGate, then edited in Wavelab and downsampled and dithered to redbook. So I look forward to completing the piano recitals where a direct comparison with the SD722 will be possible. I have done the 722 (at 24/192) as CD and DVD-A, and am doing the export of the DSD files now to 24/96. I'll send them out Monday to a friend with highend listening equipment.
The question I have, and won't be able to answer, is whether the DSD files will really represent something of quality going forward. Or am I better off recording 24/96 or 24/192 with the 722 or Sonosax MiniR82, or even the Sony D1.
(Damn, this cello sounds sweet).
Jeff
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the dsd files are really representing something of quality, yes.
its just the conversion that seems to be a little tricky.
try going DSD>CD direct. i'm loving what i hear out of mine
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the dsd files are really representing something of quality, yes.
its just the conversion that seems to be a little tricky.
try going DSD>CD direct. i'm loving what i hear out of mine
For me, I only care about DSD and conversion to CD. I have no interest in 24 bit anything from this point forward. I don't think CD will sound any better or worse than any decent 24 bit recorder conversion to CD.
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For me, I only care about DSD and conversion to CD. I have no interest in 24 bit anything from this point forward. I don't think CD will sound any better or worse than any decent 24 bit recorder conversion to CD.
How are you going to play the DSD?
A lot of us don't convert our 24 bit recordings to redbook for our playback. We play them at 24 bits...
The data suggest that the Korg DSD > redbook conversion is likely flawed. But even the guys who did those tests don't seem to care enough to test 16/44.
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For me, I only care about DSD and conversion to CD. I have no interest in 24 bit anything from this point forward. I don't think CD will sound any better or worse than any decent 24 bit recorder conversion to CD.
How are you going to play the DSD?
A lot of us don't convert our 24 bit recordings to redbook for our playback. We play them at 24 bits...
The data suggest that the Korg DSD > redbook conversion is likely flawed. But even the guys who did those tests don't seem to care enough to test 16/44.
Will be playing DSD on the MR-1000. I also have Discwelder Bronze (1000-edit) to convert DSD to redbook flawlessly.
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I believe it can record in native PCM. Anyone tried that at 24/96 or 24/192?
I second the request to try recording 24/192 native on the Korg and see how
the recording comes out. Do you still see the noise?
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I believe it can record in native PCM. Anyone tried that at 24/96 or 24/192?
I second the request to try recording 24/192 native on the Korg and see how
the recording comes out. Do you still see the noise?
The answer is yes:
(http://www.unipv.it/webcib/Korg_MR1_PCM192k_noise.gif)
Korg MR-1. 15 kHz -20dB tone. Line in, PCM 192k recording. More than 40 dB of noise increase!
From here:
http://www.unipv.it/webcib/res_techtest_uk.html
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I believe it can record in native PCM. Anyone tried that at 24/96 or 24/192?
I second the request to try recording 24/192 native on the Korg and see how
the recording comes out. Do you still see the noise?
The answer is yes:
(http://www.unipv.it/webcib/Korg_MR1_PCM192k_noise.gif)
Korg MR-1. 15 kHz -20dB tone. Line in, PCM 192k recording. More than 40 dB of noise increase!
From here:
http://www.unipv.it/webcib/res_techtest_uk.html
The issue only appears to be with 24/192 whether recorded natively or when DSD is downconverted to 24/192 with AudioGate.
Personally, I could care less about 24/192 if that's the only issue with the new Korg DSD products.
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You know, I have been concentrating on the right side of these two graphs (DSD to 192. 192 direct on the MR-1), because of the ugly things it does to the pcm wave in an editor. Am I correct that the left side shows a noise floor well under -132 dB below 20 kH? Does this mean we have real 22 bit performance here?
Jeff
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Personally, I could care less about 24/192 if that's the only issue with the new Korg DSD products.
The issue also occurs at 24/96. Safe to assume it also occurs with 16/44 conversion.
Korg either released the product knowing about these issues or their testing was very weak. I'd guess they knew. Since there is no good way to listen to the DSD, the PCM is absolutely critical to listening. This is a major gaffe on their part.
You know, I have been concentrating on the right side of these two graphs (DSD to 192. 192 direct on the MR-1), because of the ugly things it does to the pcm wave in an editor. Am I correct that the left side shows a noise floor well under -132 dB below 20 kH? Does this mean we have real 22 bit performance here?
No, wrong type of test for that. The 722 results are quite a bit lower and closer to -140dB in that freq range.. We know that just isn't the case.
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You know from what has been said here it seem as if this recorder should be kept as a DSD recorder and any files made with it should be achieved for future resampling using a better program.... Forget about using it as a PCM recorder...I think Korg concentrated in developing a DSD recorder only (not a player or a PCM recorder - even though it can do all that). We should relying on our "ears" more and judge it by the sound quality. What is disappointing for me now is the AudioGate program it comes with it not how the recording sound. I used this recorder 3 times and the first 2 times were disspointing (my fault) but the last time I used it (last night) the result was mind blowing. Tonight I will record a voice recital...we'll see how that goes :p
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Just a guess, may be wrong: Going tape out from the 722 is not really giving the MR1 the full benefits. The tape out is first AD-converted in the 722 and then DA-converted (tell me if I am wrong on this one). And if you go into the MR1 it is AD converted once more.
Gunnar
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I don't think the 722 tape-out goes through any A/D or D/A conversion. In any case, the problems were evident on a Korg tape from DPA4060s through an MMA6000, with no digital stuff at all upfront (and I can't imagine the Korg preamp is better than an MMA6000, or the 722 pre for that matter).
Jeff
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The person who had prepared the graphs had also done some checking on this. He asked someone who is involved with DSD conversion about it. His opinion was that the noise likely had to do with noise-shaping.
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I talked with a tech at DiskWelder about their DSD conversion software (the DiskWelder Bronze 1000 with DSD conversion is available only through Tascam, to get DSD conversion from Diskwelder you have to upgrade to Chrome II, which is $3000). They have two settings, roughly accurate and fast. The accurate one takes around 20 hours to process a DVD-A worth of files. This is clearly NOT what we have in AudioGate, and probably not what is implemented in their hardware either.
Jeff
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speculation
all of it, at this point. We'll know more soon, i'm sure.
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The person who had prepared the graphs had also done some checking on this. He asked someone who is involved with DSD conversion about it. His opinion was that the noise likely had to do with noise-shaping.
in speaking w/doug oade this morning, he thought the same thing.
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I just emailed the Product Support Manager for KORG on this. He's been pretty helpful to me so far, he sent me a DC plug and cable for the MR-1000 from a bad AC adapter so that I could make a power cable for an SLA battery (FOC). Here's what I wrote, (I'll post his response)...
James,
Hi! Thanks for trying anyway. I know you are busy, but I have one more question to ask you. Since the MR-1 has debuted in the US, I know of several folks that have purchased one and are using them in the field. There has been some discussion regarding the noise floor and apperance of the wave, either DSD > PCM @ 24/192 or direct PCM @ 24/192. It seems that there is a very steep increase in the noise floor for the MR-1 in both scenarios. Here's a website with some graphs that have been generated for both situations (as well as some comparisons).
http://www.unipv.it/webcib/res_techtest_uk.html (http://www.unipv.it/webcib/res_techtest_uk.html)
I was wondering if you might be able to shed some light on this? And do you know if the MR-1000 will exhibit similar characteristics. I suspect that there is some issues with the noise shaping that causing this, or that there is noise being generated through the power supply (either internal or external).
Thanks James!
Cheers!
Jack
I asked him about the algorithms that were used in AudioGate for the DSD conversion and here's what he said....
In looking at all of the materials for Audio Gate, I see no outside licensing with regards to the algorithms. That tells me that our engineers designed all of the algorithms proprietarily.
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"In looking at all of the materials for Audio Gate, I see no outside licensing with regards to the algorithms. That tells me that our engineers designed all of the algorithms proprietarily."
DSD is extremely proprietary... If they developed their own conversion as suggested, wouldn't they need all of the proprietary dsd details? I'm thinking they bought a library from someone that contains the secret sauce. That's not to say that they didn't develop some aspects of the pcm conversion but I doubt the magic beans have been spilled.. Not sure that it matters..
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Here's the response I received...
Hi Jack,
No problem. I answer what I can.
On this question, I’m really not sure; no one here in the US distributor is. These questions go a little beyond us. I’m an operational support chap for example, and these are more design and engineering questions.
I touched base with Product Management here to see if any information was available on this question was available in that channel, but no. However, he has informed me that both he and Korg Japan are observing forums such as the one that you mention, the URL you provided included. This is actually typical, since it’s a good way to keep our ear to the ground on what people are doing with our products. And while there’s no comparison of the noise floor yet, should there be a study or release of info any this nature, it will either be posted to the list(s) or disseminated back through Product Management to us here is Support.
Until then, I’m afraid we have no further information. Hopefully that will change in the near future.
Best,
James
I think that the longest "I don't know" I've ever seen. ::)
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"In looking at all of the materials for Audio Gate, I see no outside licensing with regards to the algorithms. That tells me that our engineers designed all of the algorithms proprietarily."
DSD is extremely proprietary... If they developed their own conversion as suggested, wouldn't they need all of the proprietary dsd details? I'm thinking they bought a library from someone that contains the secret sauce. That's not to say that they didn't develop some aspects of the pcm conversion but I doubt the magic beans have been spilled.. Not sure that it matters..
I don't think DSD is proprietary however SACD is. That's why all those SACD mastering programs are several thousand $$$.
Those graphs look like the LPF isn't working properly or something generating a lot of high freq noise. Can a leaky power supply do that?
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Hello folks:
I have not been "hiding", but until I get answers from Korg Inc. I couldn't really help. Now I can.
The issue of the noise is due to the nature of the Sigma-Delta noise-shaping that happens with the technologies we (and others) use. The MR recorders use the Texas Instruments PCM1804 A/D converter - a highly respected component. You can refer to its data sheet (page 12, 17) for more information on the structure and characteristics of practical sigma-delta modulators.
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1804.pdf
The anti-aliasing filter used in AudioGate for 2.8MHz DSD -> 192kHz PCM conversion is similar to the filters used in other company's DSD->PCM conversion software already in the market. These are designed to keep the information loss to a minimum rather than to reduce the out-band noise generated by sigma-delta modulators.
But we recognized the issue you are experiencing, and have designed 2 new filters for the conversion based on other methods, which will reduce those out-band noise. They will be included in the next version of AudioGate (ver.1.0.1) which will be released in April along with the support for Windows Vista.
We appreciate that you want and need to make these conversions and just ask for you to be a little patient while we finish implementing and testing the software.
We have also just finished a new OS for the MR-1 (1.01) which will get posted to korg.com tomorrow. It fixes a small bug which caused the System Clock to not always keep accurate time.
I know it's not related to this discussion, but this is as good a place to let you know.
Thanks for your patience - we are listening and watching. But again, many times I need to check with Japan to get answers for you.
Regards,
Jerry
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DSD is proprietary, and we have been working with the original inventor/developer with his full cooperation/license. The same professor (Dr. Yoshio Yamasaki) who licensed it to Sony/Phillips. So we have ALL the magic beans, as you say.
:-)
Regards,
Jerry
"In looking at all of the materials for Audio Gate, I see no outside licensing with regards to the algorithms. That tells me that our engineers designed all of the algorithms proprietarily."
DSD is extremely proprietary... If they developed their own conversion as suggested, wouldn't they need all of the proprietary dsd details? I'm thinking they bought a library from someone that contains the secret sauce. That's not to say that they didn't develop some aspects of the pcm conversion but I doubt the magic beans have been spilled.. Not sure that it matters..
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So the MR-1 has the PCM1804 and the MR-1000 has the PCM4202?
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edit: nevermind...need more coffee....
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So the MR-1 has the PCM1804 and the MR-1000 has the PCM4202?
Yes, that's correct.
Jerry
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Thanks Jerry! As always your expertise and attention here is always appreciated.
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Nice Jerry.
Thank you for lurking!
make note of the battery charging issues (lack of notification while off), if you would.
:)
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DSD is proprietary, and we have been working with the original inventor/developer with his full cooperation/license. The same professor (Dr. Yoshio Yamasaki) who licensed it to Sony/Phillips. So we have ALL the magic beans, as you say.
:-)
Regards,
Jerry
IMO, this HUGE info. you can't really say that the software or the hardware is 1/2 assing anything compared to other DSD products (and since there really are none in this hand held portable market).
Jerry, i've got a question.
in your (or Korgs) opinion, what is the best way to actually listen to the DSD masters we record, in their raw form (no PCM conversion at all) ?
DSD>CD sound super sweet to me, but id rather listen to just straight dope DSD.
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cts (and since there really are none in this hand held portable market).
Jerry, i've got a question.
in your (or Korgs) opinion, what is the best way to actually listen to the DSD masters we record, in their raw form (no PCM conversion at all) ?
DSD>CD sound super sweet to me, but id rather listen to just straight dope DSD.
Hi Nick,
That easy - there is no doubt that listening to true DSD is the best possible listening format. The market for distribution etc. is not ready for it, but simply from an audio standpoint the DSD format is far superior.
Regards,
Jerry
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Thanks Jerry! As always your expertise and attention here is always appreciated.
LOL - my expertise is something that is being aquired each day - this is new for most of us, myself included!
::)
But I'm glad to try to help where I can, and it's important to me and Korg to listen, learn and help you folks out. You're obviously REALLY into this which is exciting for us. Thanks!
Regards,
Jerry
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I think you missed my question Jerry.
I was asking what is the best way to actually listen to these DSD masters?
in your own opinion. Since we just can't burn SACDs, what other, if any...alternatives are there?
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I think you missed my question Jerry.
I was asking what is the best way to actually listen to these DSD masters?
in your own opinion. Since we just can't burn SACDs, what other, if any...alternatives are there?
Nick, how does straight DSD sound played back on the MR-1 vs. the DSD>CD transfer? Is there a problem playing DSD on the recorder? I know it's not very practical to load up one or two DSD shows at a time to listen to on the MR-1 but I'm sure it's worth the extra step.