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Gear / Technical Help => Cables => Topic started by: Chuck on May 07, 2007, 04:42:26 PM
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So, I've always made my own cables...
I've used Mogami, Belden & Canare wire mostly. A while back, I bought a pair of ToddR's silver/ teflon DogStar cables. I'm finding now, that I would rather have some more flexible cables. What are my options as far as high quality, but with some flexibility and small? FWIW, I'm not sure I heard a sonic difference between the copper vs silver wires. I bought the silvers because they pack better and use less space than the Canare or Mogami's.
I'm certainly up for making the cables myself. I guess I just need some recomendations on the various wire choices, as I know I like the Neutrik connectors.
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The 1804a is extremely flexible and seems quite tough when covered with 1/8" techflex. Very low memory.
Are your teflon silver cables joined together with techflex? It really goes a long way to tame their desire to go their own way.. I have a pair of 25' like that and really like them but I'm not sure I would as separates. Also, some of the quad cable is more flexible than the larger conductor single pair.
The stiffness of the silver teflon is a pain for short cables between devices, etc.
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The 1804a is extremely flexible and seems quite tough when covered with 1/8" techflex. Very low memory.
Are your teflon silver cables joined together with techflex? It really goes a long way to tame their desire to go their own way.. I have a pair of 25' like that and really like them but I'm not sure I would as separates. Also, some of the quad cable is more flexible than the larger conductor single pair.
The stiffness of the silver teflon is a pain for short cables between devices, etc.
I would like to get some of this cable to check out any good sources? That you know of?
Chris
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So, I've always made my own cables...
I've used Mogami, Belden & Canare wire mostly. A while back, I bought a pair of ToddR's silver/ teflon DogStar cables. I'm finding now, that I would rather have some more flexible cables. What are my options as far as high quality, but with some flexibility and small? FWIW, I'm not sure I heard a sonic difference between the copper vs silver wires. I bought the silvers because they pack better and use less space than the Canare or Mogami's.
I'm certainly up for making the cables myself. I guess I just need some recomendations on the various wire choices, as I know I like the Neutrik connectors.
What awg are your Dogstars? 2-conductor or 4-conductor? That may be part of the issue. IME, if you go with 24 awg 2-conductor or 4-conductor it is pretty flexible. Any bigger than that, and it gets pretty stiff. If you went with 26 awg silver clad it would be more so. Just an idea/thought.
Here's some more info regarding my experience with the Belden 1804a.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83803.msg1115372.html#msg1115372 (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83803.msg1115372.html#msg1115372)
If your ears prefer copper, I'd recommend the Canare mini star quad (L-4E5C) or the Mogami stuff that NashPhil used in his mic cable comparisions. My $0.02.
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So, I've always made my own cables...
I've used Mogami, Belden & Canare wire mostly. A while back, I bought a pair of ToddR's silver/ teflon DogStar cables. I'm finding now, that I would rather have some more flexible cables. What are my options as far as high quality, but with some flexibility and small? FWIW, I'm not sure I heard a sonic difference between the copper vs silver wires. I bought the silvers because they pack better and use less space than the Canare or Mogami's.
I'm certainly up for making the cables myself. I guess I just need some recomendations on the various wire choices, as I know I like the Neutrik connectors.
What awg are your Dogstars? 2-conductor or 4-conductor? That may be part of the issue. IME, if you go with 24 awg 2-conductor or 4-conductor it is pretty flexible. Any bigger than that, and it gets pretty stiff. If you went with 26 awg silver clad it would be more so. Just an idea/thought.
Here's some more info regarding my experience with the Belden 1804a.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83803.msg1115372.html#msg1115372 (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83803.msg1115372.html#msg1115372)
If your ears prefer copper, I'd recommend the Canare mini star quad (L-4E5C) or the Mogami stuff that NashPhil used in his mic cable comparisions. My $0.02.
I was using the Canare L-4E5C for years, but it was too bulky in my bag. I may look into the Belden 1804a. I already have the TechFlex...
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Canare mini star quad
I used this cable for a snake I built. So far, so good...
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not bad. about &.70 per foot.
I might have to get me some of that. I like it, but its so damn'd expensive and hard to find less than 1000' at a time.
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http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83803.0.html
:P
/ducks...
On the more helpful side, I've got a set of Nick's Hydra Silvers, and am very pleased with 'em from a flexibility standpoint! So you won't go wrong using what he's using...
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well....my stock changes. I've used as thick as 20awg, but I like 24-26 awg better. sounds like you got some thin stuff.
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well....my stock changes. I've used as thick as 20awg, but I like 24-26 awg better. sounds like you got some thin stuff.
??? I don't get it...
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the thinner the wire, the more flexible and less stiff it is. It sounds like you probably got some when I had thinner wire in stock. maybe not.
:)
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the thinner the wire, the more flexible and less stiff it is. It sounds like you probably got some when I had thinner wire in stock. maybe not.
:)
Oh, ok. That makes sense. Would you hazard a guess on how thin my wire stock is?
Either way, I'm still very satisfied with the Hydra Silvers!
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no clue. I dont recall who has what from my various batches of stock.
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I have been looking around for a 100' roll of Belden 1804a. Best price I can find is
$88.98 for 100' reel from Westlake Electronics. They do not have it in stock, but per email, I was told that it was special order and should only take 7-10 days from order date to get.
http://www.westlake-electronic.com/store/search/1/detail/1/item_no/BEL-12063/ (http://www.westlake-electronic.com/store/search/1/detail/1/item_no/BEL-12063/)
A few questions for those who have worked with this cable.
Anybody know of a better source? price?
Will 28awg wire be large enough for longer runs, say 30' to 50'?
Any issues with this wire fitting standard neutrik xlr plugs? or 3.5mm plugs?
Thanks
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the wire is small, 28awg will fit anything.
as for long runs..., I have no experience there really. That is also the best price i've seen as well.
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Chuck --
Just as an fyi, I believe the cables you have from me are 20ga 2cond+shield cables. So if you like the silver-clad, teflon cable sound, you might want to look at making cables from 24ga or 26ga wire, as they will be much more flexible for you.
And now for the huge aside on cables:
When it comes down to it, everything is a tradeoff. Smaller cables are more convenient, but you run the risk that given the rough field conditions our cables are subject to, smaller cables which encase thinner wires will not hold up as well over time. 4-wire for 2-conductor construction (star-quad) has better noise handling properties, but also has more capacitance between the wires in the cable compared to a two-wire construction, and that capacitance has a negative impact on sound. Thinner gauge wires also have less capacitance compared to larger wires, but have more resistance per foot (which is bad) and as above, have the potential to not last as long over rough and tumble field conditions.
The first generation of cables I made, about 1400' worth of cables, used a 4-cond 24ga starquad construction, yielding an effective overall per conductor path awg of about 21ga. But after re-assessing my beliefs on the need for better noise handling in typical ts.com PA recordings vs the potential impact of higher capacitance (esp since the majority of the cables I was selling were for interconnects handling line level signals, not mic cables), I decided for optimal sound it would be better to get away from the starquad construction and go to a simple 2-wire construction.
From that point on, for my second generation cables, I always used 20ga cable stock. From my view, the 20ga cable allowed for a pretty compact cable and also had larger gauge wire, which should be more robust and have a longer usable lifetime than thinner guage cables. From my standpoint, 20ga 2-cond cables seemed to be a pretty good balance point in terms of size, noise handling, sound, robustness, etc. However, if flexibility is a concern, moving to smaller guage cables will increase the overall cable flexibility.
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the 20awg can be a little thick and stiff...but still is easy to handle. the 22awg is *perfect*, when you get up to 24+, then like you said...they can break easy right at the solder joint. I've had to fix a half dozen of 24awg cables that snapped like I said.
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the 20awg can be a little thick and stiff...but still is easy to handle. the 22awg is *perfect*, when you get up to 24+, then like you said...they can break easy right at the solder joint. I've had to fix a half dozen of 24awg cables that snapped like I said.
I agree with the 20 awg being pretty thick & stiff. I think 22 awg is as big as I'd go for our purposes. That being said, I would disagree that 24 awg is too thin for 2-conductor construction. I have not experienced the cable breaking at the solder joint using this size wire. It's ultimately a function of the strain relief built into the connection/connector being able to absorb the force & not the solder joint. If you don't have adequate strain relief to perform this task, the stress is carried by the solder joint. That causes cable failure, which is bad.
Now, when you get to using 26 or 28 awg wire, it becomes even more important to have adequate strain relief built in, or you will definitely have these problems. That was where my previous statements regarding the 1804a & the stock MBHO active cables was drawn from. The stock MBHO cable is especially fragile.
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some of that 24awg 2 conducutor is just thin thin thin...and when the chuck is screwed on , if it doesn't catch the wire a a "fat spot", then problems come.
that is the problem w/millspec. consistency is hard to come by, unless you buy HUGE bulk, which I seldom see.
I do like the selection I get when ordering 100' pieces at a time though. I've got some crazy ass cable right now that is 20awg, and each conductor is individualy shielded and not the whole wire. weird stuff...but really nice.
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Chuck --
Just as an fyi, I believe the cables you have from me are 20ga 2cond+shield cables. So if you like the silver-clad, teflon cable sound, you might want to look at making cables from 24ga or 26ga wire, as they will be much more flexible for you.
And now for the huge aside on cables:
When it comes down to it, everything is a tradeoff. Smaller cables are more convenient, but you run the risk that given the rough field conditions our cables are subject to, smaller cables which encase thinner wires will not hold up as well over time. 4-wire for 2-conductor construction (star-quad) has better noise handling properties, but also has more capacitance between the wires in the cable compared to a two-wire construction, and that capacitance has a negative impact on sound. Thinner gauge wires also have less capacitance compared to larger wires, but have more resistance per foot (which is bad) and as above, have the potential to not last as long over rough and tumble field conditions.
The first generation of cables I made, about 1400' worth of cables, used a 4-cond 24ga starquad construction, yielding an effective overall per conductor path awg of about 21ga. But after re-assessing my beliefs on the need for better noise handling in typical ts.com PA recordings vs the potential impact of higher capacitance (esp since the majority of the cables I was selling were for interconnects handling line level signals, not mic cables), I decided for optimal sound it would be better to get away from the starquad construction and go to a simple 2-wire construction.
From that point on, for my second generation cables, I always used 20ga cable stock. From my view, the 20ga cable allowed for a pretty compact cable and also had larger gauge wire, which should be more robust and have a longer usable lifetime than thinner guage cables. From my standpoint, 20ga 2-cond cables seemed to be a pretty good balance point in terms of size, noise handling, sound, robustness, etc. However, if flexibility is a concern, moving to smaller guage cables will increase the overall cable flexibility.
I, actually, really like your cables, Todd. I appreciate the detailed explanation you offered on your thought process in designing the cables.
I had made every pair of cables I've used before I bought the ones you made for me.
What I am concerned with is sound transmission (physically) from the cables to the microphones. The way I run them, with right angles on the microphone side, leaves the cable very stiff and able to transmit sound via vibrations to the microphones. I did some *thump* tests at home and found the old Canare cables I made, transmit less noise from the stand vibration or being hit than the Segues. When I ran the Canares, I was able to make a loop in the cable before it attached to the microphone, so that the cable is more able to absorb the noise and not transmit it to the mics. Before I get new cables, I'll put some straight connectors on the microphone side of the Segues, and see if I can get a loop in the cable at the microphone side. I also saw Ed's Ultra Stealths and have a bit of cable envy ;D as those pack even smaller and have the cool turned down connectors.
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couple layers of adhesive lined shrink tubing will fix that
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yup.