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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: Nick's Picks on August 31, 2007, 07:36:27 AM
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sometimes, its really, really hard to "take ones own advice".
I've been contemplating some new mics. schoeps or a soundfield. either of which is a significant investment for me. I"m saving, and counting my beans and looking at my gear to see what stays and what goes.
So i'm talking with Dough (oade) the other day and he's asking me about my stereo. I inform him that i'm back to ML's, (he is a fan as well),. and *finally* have some top notch amplification.
then he starts discussing the source...and area I know as the weak link of my system. And he sort of re-affirms that for me.
then I start cruising agon.
and what do I find..., ?
freakin' EMM LABS preamp/DAC combo (dcc6 ?) as come down in price on the used market for $4-5k.
Now, my own advise is always to sink the $$ into the playback gear first. Yet, here I am on the fence about mics, and realizing my system NEEDS a new source, and that the EMM labs approach will likely be the last digital source I ever buy (until the future catches up).
damn! what to do...what to do.
dont mind me, i'm just thinking out loud.
I needs me a DAC !
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I guess my first question would be this: you had a soundfield. why did you sell it? if you got the new soundfield, could you see yourself bailing on it and selling it?
i know that's a LOT of money to have in 1 microphone that isn't the most flexible. If i'm spending that much money on something, i better be able to use it everywhere I go and never have to compromise. But can you use the soundfield for low profile applications? will you feel comfortable having it in tiny bars where it's exposed to beer and other mic-unfriendly elements? do you think you'd be in situations where you'd think "i wish i had something other than a soundfield right now?" will you be happy with all the tapes?
or do you think it'd be one of those situations where you'd love a few tapes, and you'd learn to live with not so good results?
Because it's not a cheap investment if you aren't 100% sold on it. I think the schoeps would probably be a better choice, and cheaper. but again, what are you really looking for? something new, or a specific sound?
as far as the meitner goes, again, thats a lot of money. but i've never heard one so I can't say whether it's worth it or not :)
sorry if i'm just rambling here....
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i sold it the first time to invest into my stereo (the first big initial hit any way).
I see a pattern here.
ah well. either way, its a lot of chingola$
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A couple other thoughts...
- You can only capture a performance once. If you have the right equipment to do the job, as well as location and luck, you can get a great recording that you can listen to again and again on various playback equipment.
- The counterpoint... why bother capturing great recordings that can't be fully resolved on your playback system? ;)
Personally I'm setting up a Mac Mini as my playback source, and will use an outboard D>A. Spending a bit on D>A conversion makes great sense to me, but $4-5k would be well beyond my threshold. Hard drive space has gotten cheap enough to just rip everything to FLAC, and then I can also play back my 24/96 masters in all their glory without having to fumble with DVD-Audio.
If you've got $4-5k to spend, you can probably upgrade both the playback and rig quite a bit. Schoeps aren't cheap, but unless you're buying a bunch of caps, you can do it for just part of the total budget and spend the rest on playback equipment.
Good luck!
- Jason
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then I start cruising agon.
and what do I find..., ?
freakin' EMM LABS preamp/DAC combo (dcc6 ?) as come down in price on the used market for $4-5k.
I'm sure this is a killer piece of gear, but I don't think you need to spend anywhere near that much to get an excellent pre/DAC. I've seen a bunch of Musical Fidelity DAC's on agon lately that run about $600 (XDACv3 and A3.24). Both of these got very good reviews in stereophile and have superb measurements (measurements for both are up on the stereophile website). Or how about a Benchmark DAC1, Bel Canto DAC, Lavry DA10, or Apogee mini DAC? (just the first few models that come to mind) If you already have a good pre can get some excellent DA conversion for well under $1K used. Hopefully that would leave you enough scratch to keep you close to the new mics.
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i'm eyeing a bel canto dac3 right now..., that could work. I even went as far as to low ball them.
there goes my schoeps ....
:(
here comes my peluso P2
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!peluso p2! :drool:
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The EMM is superb (obviously) but the thing to keep in mind is that the cost of DACs (both boxes and the chip sets they contain) is rapidly dropping while the quality is rapidly increasing. One rarely finds reviews of outboard DACs in audio mags these days. I believe it was John Atkinson that basicaly said that Stereophile rarely reviews them now because most players (as opposed to transports+DACs) are so good now compared to a few years ago and are quite cheep.
THe other thing I would say, with regards to the EMM is that, to my knowledge (and I may be behind the times) is that the transport is CD/DSD only. Even if you are recording to DSD, chances are that you will still be burning to DVD-A and listening to others' recordings in that format. I would say, save 2K towards the CCM4's and get a moded Linn Unidisk for 3K over the EMM. You can use it for every format under the sun save Blueray and HDDVD.
The last thing is that I have been at times both a proponent of the playback system comes first (see selling my c34 to Carl for the Sonus Fabers) and the record it now, get a playback when ya can. The older I get though, the more I lean towards the latter if you have, at least, a very good playback system (which you do). DACs and transports aren't going anywhere (except down in cost) but much of the artists I listen to aren't going to be doing what they do forever....
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no modded nothin. resale sucks on *most* items like that. though, I have been tempted.
that BC gets juicier the more I look at it.
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no modded nothin. resale sucks on *most* items like that. though, I have been tempted.
that BC gets juicier the more I look at it.
I know you said most, but mods from a well know source can really jump in resale. For instance a stock DVD3910 (my player) now goes for about $500-$700 whereas modded versions go for more like 2-3K. It all depends on who is doing the mods and what they do. Simple upgrades of things like internal wiring and caps typically hold their value pretty well I have found. Anyway, I'm sticking to my guns that you can, for the original figure you threw out, get a decent DAC or one box player AND some CCM4's (getCCM4V's ;D), if not the Soundfield.
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I honestly have no clue why you have such a hard on for the Bel Canto's. I know it is the new version but the old one was beat a few times on different shootouts by lesser DAC's such as your CIA. Seriously get a good one box & add the killer DAC later. We have tested it & proven it that a transport is not just a transport. I would also say the Denon's are pretty good for the money, I have two of them ;)
Here's what I would get before I spent 4k on a front end
old: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homevdeo&1192058345
new: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homevdeo&1192732766
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So long as your mics are not top quality you will be recording tracks accordingly. You will not get the opportunity to re-record them with the first rate mics you will buy down the line. However, well recorded gigs, the ones you do with those good mics, will sound good now and better when you drop some cash on an upgraded playback rig. And that way you will not have to listen to sub-par recordings on a great playback rig.
I have some stuff I recorded with MM-HLSC-1's or SP-CMC-4U's into a SONY MZ-RH1 and also stuff I recorded with the Schoeps CMC 64's into the SD 722. It is clear to me why Schoeps and SD get away charging what they do for their gear. And if I were in doubt, the musicians I record have made it very plain to me. The Schoeps stuff they are interested in paying for. Not so the SP/MM stuff. YMMV
L8R
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Hey Nick,
If you're still running the Oppo's analog outs directly into the amplifier, you should think about a tube pre-amp for your Odyssey mono's, like a VTL 2.5 Line Stage for instance. As for your front end dilemna, I think a single box universal player would suffice. If 24 bit recordings aren't your thing, you would be better off buying a dedicated red book player. I can't see spending $3k on a digital front end when that same money spent on analog will get you so much more in return.
Chris
PS Buy the Schoeps first.
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i'm being so wishy washy about all of this.
i've got the bel canto for a good price, IMO.
and Carl...I dont know what you're talking about. I've never had a bel canto to listen to, none of their models.
from what i've read, this one is really good. Plus, built in digital preamp makes for a very attractive solution for me (so long TT though).
OR....
I could spend around 1/2 that and get that cambridge 740C that I was talking about in another thread. that does everything for me as well...except that it will not be any sort of preamp.
OR...
the guy w/the CCMs i've been talking too might get back to me w/his asking price.
:-)
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I am not saying you have had a bel canto but there have been a few threads on various forums. Regardless you are being more than wishy washy on this one!
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i'm being so wishy washy about all of this.
i've got the bel canto for a good price, IMO.
and Carl...I dont know what you're talking about. I've never had a bel canto to listen to, none of their models.
from what i've read, this one is really good. Plus, built in digital preamp makes for a very attractive solution for me (so long TT though).
:bawling:
Nick, what kind of turntable would make you think about giving it up for a digital pre amp?
Chris
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thorens TD160.
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but..now i'm re-considering and researching a bit on the Grace m902. that would allow for phono as well.
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just put a good adc between your phono pre and digital pre/dac, problem solved.... ;)
i'm being so wishy washy about all of this.
i've got the bel canto for a good price, IMO.
and Carl...I dont know what you're talking about. I've never had a bel canto to listen to, none of their models.
from what i've read, this one is really good. Plus, built in digital preamp makes for a very attractive solution for me (so long TT though).
:bawling:
Nick, what kind of turntable would make you think about giving it up for a digital pre amp?
Chris
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I think the Grace would be ok as a headphone amp & adc, but it's performance as a pre amp is not going to rival the VTL. Here's a VTL 2.5 pre that just came up today for $895 http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1194038267 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1194038267). This won't last long. Their reference line stage is considered one of the best in the world.
Chris
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Plus isn't VTL designed by David Manley or his son? I think they left Manley at one point to start vtl?
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I think VTL started out as Manley's home audio side of the family business and was eventually spun-off. Luke Manley runs VTL & EveAnna runs Manley.
Chris
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Yep, that sounds about right from what I remember.
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so what I ended up doing was getting a Grace m901, which Dough Oade is going to modify for me. Something w/the analog output path that will greatly open up the soundstage ...says he.
im going to get it here first, listen to it for a while ( i've heard one, and I know I like it) before sending it down to GA for some Oade magic.
but..this does everything for me only w/o a remote.
welcome to high end.
a nice analog stage on the 901 will allow me to try out the Audio Experience phono preamp i've been wanting to play with.
analog will survive...for a while longer, in our home.