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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: dimm0k on October 11, 2007, 01:16:20 PM
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An upcoming rock concert at Webster Hall in NY and I'm in the early stages of preparing for my first recording so I'd like for some suggestions on my setup/plans. I have the Sony MZ-R90 minidisc which I have read would be wise to use the LINE option to connect the mics alongside a preamp. The mics are on order from Church-Audio, a pair of STC-11 cardioid mics without the omni caps. Also have a preamp from Church-Audio to power the mics and account for possible loud noises. I'm about 5'6" so I'm thinking of placing the mics on my shoulders under my shirt for concealment. I'll most likely be in the front row a little off center with a friend...
my concerns are:
is there any better place for placing the mics with stealth in mind?
because of my height and where I'm hoping to stand, would omni caps be better?
how do you guys handle recordings that are > 80mins when using minidiscs?
how do I figure out what to set on the preamp?
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I wouldn't stand that close. If there's an opener, try and gauge where the "sweet spot" is in the venue and stand there, DFC. Set the pre-amp on about "11 O' Clock" which I think is unity on Chris' preamp and add gain as needed.
Omni vs Cards...my opinion is that if the venue has good acoustics, use omni's, but otherwise I'd opt for cards. I have so many loud drunks near me at shows (I am some kind of magnet for these people...but only when taping!) that I use cardoids a lot. If you do stand that close to the stage with cardoids, you'll pick up a lot of stage noise and a lot less of what is being mixed out into the hall.
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If you are using an MD to record LOUD concerts, use line in and a battery box. The pre-amp will just raise your volume, which you do not want. If the mics cannot feed enough volume at line-in, use mic-in on the low setting. If that does not work, use the high setting. If that does not work, try the pre-amp.
So, how can you ever do that at the concert? You can't. Put on some loud music at home and try it. It will help you know ahead of time what the setting should be and give you practice in setting up. I hope you enjoy what you are doing. This is fun. And with practice you can create some first class recordings.
Cheers
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If you are using an MD to record LOUD concerts, use line in and a battery box. The pre-amp will just raise your volume, which you do not want. If the mics cannot feed enough volume at line-in, use mic-in on the low setting. If that does not work, use the high setting. If that does not work, try the pre-amp.
So, how can you ever do that at the concert? You can't. Put on some loud music at home and try it. It will help you know ahead of time what the setting should be and give you practice in setting up. I hope you enjoy what you are doing. This is fun. And with practice you can create some first class recordings.
Cheers
I respectfully disagree.
The pre will take the place of the BB. I think your best bet will be the cards. Use the pre. I dont know the specifics of webster hall, but IMHO you will get a better sound from using the pre then the 3V provided by the MD, (get full power to the mics with the pre) and if you can stand still/not move the mics too much, you will prolly be better off with the Cards then the Omni. If your going to move around/get bumped around the Omni caps are prolly a beter option. YMMV.
As for the placement and whatnot, just ask someone through PM who stealths. Is there still a team stealth?
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For loud concerts, I would use Line-In.
I used the mic input once for a loud concert and it completely brickwalled. (The Dixie Dregs...damn fine band)
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Collars very good..try not to actually cover the mics.as far as the 80 min disc..research the band you are taping ..look into recent setlists and times then youll know ahead of time where to flip discs. Use line in not mic in. Dont put your hands in front of the mics when recording (drinking) to avoid "phasing" . The most important thing.....make sure you piss prior to the start of the show.
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if you can get them around your ears that's even better. i'd try to stand as close to a stack as possible. front row center is generally pretty inconsistent sound wise. a lot of times you'll get a very little vocals.
change the disc during the encore break.
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If you put mics under clothing you will get a recording full of loud noises from the fabric rubbing the mics. Definately go line in, acg off low sens, manual level control. Beware it takes a long time to change discs as the MD must finalize the disc before you can eject it. Try and keep the recorder as still as possible while it does this. You might have to miss all/part of a song unless you can somehow rum another recorder as a backup.
Good luck!
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Wow thanks for all the replies! Some interesting suggestions that I probably would never have thought of and would probably have found out after many trials and errors.
nameloc01: since I will be going right after work I would still be in my dress shirt with the collared buttons so I was thinking of placing the mics under the dress shirt collar to provide stealth and then point the mics out. Doing so would have the mics very close to my neck, but I don't plan on drinking while the show goes on...
firmdragon: what exactly is a stack? is all of the front row pretty much inconsistent in general?
attheshow: how do I go about acg off low sens, manual level control?
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attheshow: how do I go about acg off low sens, manual level control?
I'm not sure if yours is the same as mine, but this is how it works on my old MZ-R70:
In record-pause press the enter button.
A menu comes up. Use the menu scroll buttons to reach "RecVolume" click enter. Scroll to "ManualRec" click enter.
Hit enter again to bring up the menu. Scroll to "AVLS". Hit emter. Scroll to "AVLS Off" click enter.
Mine doesn't have mic sensitivity settings, but yours might. look around in the menu for "mic sens" if it's an option, set it to "low"
Good luck!
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Most definitely set those levels manually....do not trust the auto function. And make sure once you have those levels set and are recording to set the " hold" function/button (if u have one) you def dont want to accidentally bump the stop button when you are recording. You need to practice the entire process at home until u can do it quickly and flawlessly. one more thing if your md does not haue an illuminated display..you are going to need a light source...use a cell phone.
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The best place to record in Webster Hall is in the front of the balcony, center, standing at the back of, and slightly above, the soundboard booth. This will give you a direct line to the stacks, unimpeded, and will avoid all the noise, jostling and confusion on the floor.
I recorded both recent Animal Collective concerts from this location, which are available for download here:
http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=62
http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=63
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Also remember when you hit stop or when you change disc, mine MD recorder defaults back to AVLS. So you will need to go back though the process as attheshow said to switch it back to AVLS off.
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Also remember when you hit stop or when you change disc, mine MD recorder defaults back to AVLS. So you will need to go back though the process as attheshow said to switch it back to AVLS off.
Good reminder. Only the RH1 retains its settings, I believe.
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Thank you guys for the new tips!
danlynch: what exactly are stacks? When you were at Webster Hall did you have to go stealth? For clarification on the location you mentioned, it's on the balcony level, centered and behind the soundboard booth? I remember there being a small platform where people used it as seating a little behind the soundboard booth. Any idea how the sound would be if I were in the same location but on the ground floor rather than on the balcony?
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"Stacks" specifically refers to the stacks of speakers used as the main PA. There are two stacks, each about 20 feet high, on either side of the stage. If you're too close to the stage, all the sound is going to be over your head. If you're in the spot in the front of the balcony, the sound is hitting you directly.
I went stealth at Webster because even though the band is taper friendly (they are on archive.org), the venue is often difficult with tapers.
In terms of the balcony, there are seated risers near the back, but you would be in front of those. If you were on the same location on the floor, you'd have the bar at your back. That might be ok (I taped Flaming Lips from that spot), but you'll deal with a ton of nonsense on the floor--people yapping, moving around, and generally acting like asses. There's a 30 second cell phone conversation on my Lips recording from that spot!
Good luck!
Thank you guys for the new tips!
danlynch: what exactly are stacks? When you were at Webster Hall did you have to go stealth? For clarification on the location you mentioned, it's on the balcony level, centered and behind the soundboard booth? I remember there being a small platform where people used it as seating a little behind the soundboard booth. Any idea how the sound would be if I were in the same location but on the ground floor rather than on the balcony?
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Can someone explain the difference between taping with mic-in or line-in on the minidisc? I have been using the mic in with no preamp with moderately successfull recordings. Nothing complete or shareable yet.
But,
What are the pro/cons to the mic in vs line in on the MD?
Do you need a preamp for line in?
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Can someone explain the difference between taping with mic-in or line-in on the minidisc? I have been using the mic in with no preamp with moderately successfull recordings. Nothing complete or shareable yet.
But,
What are the pro/cons to the mic in vs line in on the MD?
Do you need a preamp for line in?
Mic in for "MOST" MD'S will distort for a few reasons.. One generally speaking the mic input only provides 1.5-3v of plug in power. Second That most mic inputs have a fixed first stage sensitivity or gain. Then they go into a second stage that has a digital adjustable gain block to amplify the total input level of the mic.. The main problem with most mic inputs on most MD'S is that first stage often overloads with little to no way of being able to correct it. That's why some guys use attenuators to bring down the level of the mic before it hits that first stage. I think in most cases your better off going straight into the line input and bypassing the mic input altogether..
Do you need a preamp?
It depends on what kind of shows you want to record if its headbanging metal NO if its a wide variety of music... I would say yes.. A good preamp will do a few things for you
1- Provide proper power for your mics
2- -Provide proper gain structure to decrease your noise floor * not something you might need for headbanging metal * but something you might need for quality capture of sources that are not quite as loud..
3- A good preamp will and should add a nice sonic signature to the sound of the recording..
But the honest truth is in some situations you can get away with a simple battery box... That can be constructed for as little as $15 in parts.
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"Stacks" specifically refers to the stacks of speakers used as the main PA. There are two stacks, each about 20 feet high, on either side of the stage. If you're too close to the stage, all the sound is going to be over your head. If you're in the spot in the front of the balcony, the sound is hitting you directly.
If I am too close to the stage and the sound is going over my head, how would you describe that sound to be? Would it make a difference if I were to point the mics up?