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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Sojek on November 15, 2007, 01:32:51 PM

Title: What went wrong?
Post by: Sojek on November 15, 2007, 01:32:51 PM
Hello,

I've been recording show last Saturday (Foreigner gig At Newcastle City Hall). I was little dissapointed when I checked it after. In my opinion place to recording was good (http://www.sojek.vdl.pl/inne/cityhall.gif).

Still don't know what went wrong. To close to the stage? Using preamp without bass roll off?

I'm gonna attend next rock show this Sunday, i don't want to spoil it so any help would be appreciated.

Sample:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/asq282

My equimpment/settings were:

Mic - MM-HLSC-3
Preamp - MM-PSMS-1
Edirol R-09 (24/48, input lev - 8, AGC off, EXt mic - stereo, Low cut - on, Mic gain - low)

--- Sorry for my english ----
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: eric.B on November 15, 2007, 01:38:36 PM
Hello,

I've been recording show last Saturday (Foreigner gig At Newcastle City Hall). I was little dissapointed when I checked it after. In my opinion place to recording was good (http://www.sojek.vdl.pl/inne/cityhall.gif).

Still don't know what went wrong. To close to the stage? Using preamp without bass roll off?

I'm gonna attend next rock show this Sunday, i don't want to spoil it so any help would be appreciated.

Sample:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/asq282

My equimpment/settings were:

Mic - MM-HLSC-3
Preamp - MM-PSMS-1
Edirol R-09 (24/48, input lev - 8, AGC off, EXt mic - stereo, Low cut - on, Mic gain - low)

--- Sorry for my english ----

run line in on the r9
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Sojek on November 15, 2007, 01:48:10 PM
run line in on the r9

I used line in
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: dimm0k on November 15, 2007, 07:24:40 PM
Curious, how high did you set the preamp to?
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Sojek on November 16, 2007, 01:37:15 AM
Curious, how high did you set the preamp to?

1/4 its power. I always thought the closest to peak level the better.
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: F.O.Bean on November 16, 2007, 05:45:31 AM
why was the external mic of the r-9 ON ???
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: prof_peabody on November 16, 2007, 02:48:56 PM
why was the external mic of the r-9 ON ???

It wasn't.
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: gtalife on November 16, 2007, 03:24:56 PM
perhaps when running 24 bit you should leave yourself some headroom aprox -10 to-12 db. Did you check the r-09 when recording, peak level light coming on?
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: digifish_music on November 17, 2007, 01:01:16 AM
Hello,

Still don't know what went wrong. To close to the stage? Using preamp without bass roll off?

--- Sorry for my english ----

That's a shame :(

It sounds like an over-driven analog stage to me. Either your mic was overloading (unlikely with 138 dB max input) or the mic-preamp was getting a too-hot (loud) signal (possible?). I think it's most likely you were feeding the mic input to the R-09 too loud a signal so that the analog stage is being over-driven over-driven prior to the D/A.

You note > Edirol R-09 (24/48, input lev - 8, AGC off, EXt mic - stereo, Low cut - on, Mic gain - low)

The solution would be to use the line-in not the mic-in.

EDIT: I see you used line-in (are you absolutely sure?), in that case the high/low gain doesn't make any difference to the input that only applies to the mic-in. If it is the case you used line-in you were feeding it a too loud signal (lower the gain on the pre-amp).

OR

Were the batteries in the preamp going flat?

digifish
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Sojek on November 17, 2007, 01:44:25 AM
perhaps when running 24 bit you should leave yourself some headroom aprox -10 to-12 db. Did you check the r-09 when recording, peak level light coming on?

Not even half way to peak level. BTW. How will I now if my preamp settings are correct to not have similar distortions?
I'm unable to check it on fly due to noise surrounding me. Is it matter of practice?

EDIT: I see you used line-in (are you absolutely sure?), in that case the high/low gain doesn't make any difference to the input that only applies to the mic-in. If it is the case you used line-in you were feeding it a too loud signal (lower the gain on the pre-amp) OR Were the batteries in the preamp going flat?

Battery in preamp was new.
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: digifish_music on November 17, 2007, 02:38:07 AM
perhaps when running 24 bit you should leave yourself some headroom aprox -10 to-12 db. Did you check the r-09 when recording, peak level light coming on?

Not even half way to peak level. BTW. How will I now if my preamp settings are correct to not have similar distortions?
I'm unable to check it on fly due to noise surrounding me. Is it matter of practice?


I'd start by halving the mic-pre volume compared to what it was at.

You could experiment by putting the mics next to a hi-fi speaker and crank the volume on that...then find a set of recording settings that work. Also make sure you can replicate the distortion so you know what caused it.

digifish
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Liquid Drum on November 17, 2007, 10:27:52 AM


Either your mic was overloading (unlikely with 138 dB max input)

digifish

Trust me, these mics will easily overload in certain situations. I had mine overload 3 shows in a row so I sent 'em off for testing and a 4.7k mod. Not sure if the mics I have are faulty (I hope not) but I'll find out soon enough.
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Belexes on November 17, 2007, 11:04:31 AM
My MM's haven't overloaded and I like them.  I'm curious though as to why LiquidDrum has had some issues.  Maybe they were a faulty pair?
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Sojek on November 17, 2007, 04:11:52 PM
Thanks for help. I'll set my preamp much lower next time (tommorow).
Is preamp and mic i used good equimpment? They're borrowed.

Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: digifish_music on November 17, 2007, 04:38:36 PM


Either your mic was overloading (unlikely with 138 dB max input)

digifish

Trust me, these mics will easily overload in certain situations. I had mine overload 3 shows in a row so I sent 'em off for testing and a 4.7k mod. Not sure if the mics I have are faulty (I hope not) but I'll find out soon enough.

The reason I thought not is the distortion can be heard at the beginning where things are fairly quiet.

digifish
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Liquid Drum on November 17, 2007, 04:58:54 PM


Either your mic was overloading (unlikely with 138 dB max input)

digifish

Trust me, these mics will easily overload in certain situations. I had mine overload 3 shows in a row so I sent 'em off for testing and a 4.7k mod. Not sure if the mics I have are faulty (I hope not) but I'll find out soon enough.

The reason I thought not is the distortion can be heard at the beginning where things are fairly quiet.

digifish

Yes, I agree there. Because its all totally distorted, I would say you had the preamp too high maybe.

And yes, you have great equipment Sojek!
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Sojek on November 20, 2007, 11:11:23 AM
Common settings:

Mic - MM-HLSC-3
Preamp - MM-PSMS-1
Edirol R-09 (24/48, AGC off, EXt mic - stereo, Low cut - on, line in).
Pos: left side of the stage http://www.sojek.vdl.pl/inne/ven.jpg

Samples (1- 2MB)
1. Preamp at 9:00, Edirol lev. 8
http://www.sendspace.com/file/h7km1l

2. Preamp at 11:00, Edirol lev. 8
http://www.sendspace.com/file/hbvxy4

3. Preamp lowest possible, Edirol lev. 8
http://www.sendspace.com/file/cxz4p1


1. Preamp at 9:00, Edirol lev. 1
http://www.sendspace.com/file/9f2zh8

2. Preamp at 11:00, Edirol lev. 1
http://www.sendspace.com/file/eorl81

3. Preamp lowest possible, Edirol lev. 1
http://www.sendspace.com/file/icr2uk

Finally Edirol lev input set close to peak, no preamp, mic in.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/gzsfwj

Any suggestions? :)
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Liquid Drum on November 20, 2007, 12:47:16 PM
Wow, thats quite a strange mixed bag you got there.

I'm guessing it was the pre-amp causing this as it disappears after you removed it from the chain. Maybe something faulty inside.

Anyone else have any ideas?
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: digifish_music on November 21, 2007, 03:08:55 AM
Wow, thats quite a strange mixed bag you got there.

I'm guessing it was the pre-amp causing this as it disappears after you removed it from the chain. Maybe something faulty inside.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Agreed. I also think it's probably not the mics as it's a stereo problem (but something could have zapped both of them I suppose). I'd suggest the  power supply side in the preamp has busted?

Question, can you plug the mics directly into the R-09 mic inputs (turn plugin power on from the menus). Test it that way.

(http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/images/mmcroakstyls.jpg)

Actually looking at this pic of the mics I see you can...I'd lose the pre-amp and see how you go.

digifish

Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: Sojek on November 21, 2007, 08:47:10 AM
Actually looking at this pic of the mics I see you can...I'd lose the pre-amp and see how you go.

Like I said WITHOUT preamp was much better:

Alice Cooper: http://www.sendspace.com/file/gzsfwj
Motorhead:  http://www.sendspace.com/file/vxxjeq
Title: Re: What went wrong?
Post by: digifish_music on November 21, 2007, 07:00:56 PM
Actually looking at this pic of the mics I see you can...I'd lose the pre-amp and see how you go.

Like I said WITHOUT preamp was much better:

Alice Cooper: http://www.sendspace.com/file/gzsfwj
Motorhead:  http://www.sendspace.com/file/vxxjeq

So there you go, the preamp is shot.

digifish.