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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: mblindsey on December 24, 2007, 10:55:47 PM
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My gear list:
Mic's: CSB's, Josephson C42MP's
Pre/AD: V3
Recorders: D8, MT II
I would like to move to 4 channels. I'm thinking that I will run cards (C42's) and some kind of Omni's (STO-2??) when I am at a big outdoor show. I'm thinking I can run cards (C42's) and the soundboard (when allowed) at local bar shows.
The Edirol R4 seems the logical choice for the money, as I can't graduate to the 744T (too rich). Anything else I should seriously consider? With a modded R4, is the V3 worth keeping in the mix? The R4 has S/PDIF in and I have problems letting go of gear.
Many thanks for your opinions,
Michael
P.S. I plan to have 480's soon too if that changes things...
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The Edirol R4 seems the logical choice for the money, as I can't graduate to the 744T (too rich).
The 744T ONLY makes sense if you have an external preamp. The Edirol supports 4 mics without an external preamp, the SD 744T only has two built-in preamps, the other two channels are for line inputs.
Wayne
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This is the exact combo I'm running. It can make great sounding tapes. Here are some recordings I've made with it -
c42s and STO-2s - http://www.archive.org/details/paf2007-09-29..c42-sto2.flac16
c42s and SBD - http://www.archive.org/details/btf2007-11-01.matrix.flac16
STO-2s and SBD - http://www.archive.org/details/btf2007-11-02.matrix.flac16
The only reason to keep the V3 would be if you want to run 2 channels and use the R4 as a bit bucket or if you want to use just the preamp on the V3 and run analog into the R4. You can not run digital into a regular R4 and use all 4 channels. Maybe you can with the R4 pro. I'm not sure about the pro.
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You can not run digital into a regular R4 and use all 4 channels. Maybe you can with the R4 pro. I'm not sure about the pro.
you can mix analog and digital signals with the R4 pro.
AFAIK there are really only three 4 channel field recorders that can be had for ~4k or less. the R4 standard the R4 pro and SD744
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This is the exact combo I'm running. It can make great sounding tapes. Here are some recordings I've made with it -
c42s and STO-2s - http://www.archive.org/details/paf2007-09-29..c42-sto2.flac16
c42s and SBD - http://www.archive.org/details/btf2007-11-01.matrix.flac16
STO-2s and SBD - http://www.archive.org/details/btf2007-11-02.matrix.flac16
THANKS!
you can mix analog and digital signals with the R4 pro.
AFAIK there are really only three 4 channel field recorders that can be had for ~4k or less. the R4 standard the R4 pro and SD744
Those are three I had read about. Thanks for confirming I wasn't missing anything obvious. The R4 Pro definitely has a premium price tag over the R4, it seems.
If I only had enough posts to hand out tix ;)
Thanks again,
Michael
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The 744T ONLY makes sense if you have an external preamp. The Edirol supports 4 mics without an external preamp, the SD 744T only has two built-in preamps, the other two channels are for line inputs.
Wayne
Thanks. I didn't notice that it only had two built-in preamps when I read the specs.
--Michael
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I think the R4 resamples it's digital input, so it's not the best bit bucket.
I'd say a modded R4 or R4 pro is the way to go. You can still keep the MTII for
stealth and V3 for those times you want a different flavor pre. Though you might
find the modded R4 to sound as good or better than the v3...
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I think the R4 resamples it's digital input, so it's not the best bit bucket.
I'd say a modded R4 or R4 pro is the way to go. You can still keep the MTII for
stealth and V3 for those times you want a different flavor pre. Though you might
find the modded R4 Pro to sound as good or better than the v3...
The R-4 Pro is worth the extra $ to be able to run digital + analog at the same time (V3's A>D w/ AES out (chan 1/2) + R-4 Pro mod pres (chan 3/4)).
I would not get s standard R-4 unless you are sure you'll only be running analog in to all four channels. Since it resamples, the s/pdif input is practically useless.
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The Edirol R4 seems the logical choice for the money, as I can't graduate to the 744T (too rich). Anything else I should seriously consider? With a modded R4, is the V3 worth keeping in the mix? The R4 has S/PDIF in and I have problems letting go of gear.
the other option is to keep the V3 and the MTII (sell the D8), and buy a Tascam HD-P2. maybe get a oade modded one, but maybe not. Run mics > V3 > MTII for two channels, and mics (or sbd) > HD-P2 for the other two channels. and then hook up the V3 "word clock out" to the HD-P2 "word clock in". Doing that will run the HD-P2 off the same digital clock as the V3, and the two recordings will be digitally synced with no drift.
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the other option is to keep the V3 and the MTII (sell the D8), and buy a Tascam HD-P2. maybe get a oade modded one, but maybe not. Run mics > V3 > MTII for two channels, and mics (or sbd) > HD-P2 for the other two channels. and then hook up the V3 "word clock out" to the HD-P2 "word clock in". Doing that will run the HD-P2 off the same digital clock as the V3, and the two recordings will be digitally synced with no drift.
I like this approach. Thanks for the option. I kind of understand what you are saying about drift, but I need to read some more. Would I have to hit "record" on both recorders at the exact same time? Is the HD-P2 the cheapest recorder with "word clock in"?
One more scenario question.
With the standard R4 could I do the following:
1. Go S/PDIF in from the V3 to the R4
2. Go SBD analog in to the R4
3. Record two separate wav files on the R4
4. Go home and mix them together. (not sure how to do this)
Would the two wav files by synched without drift?
What if I let the R4 do all of the A/D and just used the V3 as a pre-amp. Would that change things?
Thanks in advance!
--Michael
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I like this approach. Thanks for the option. I kind of understand what you are saying about drift, but I need to read some more. Would I have to hit "record" on both recorders at the exact same time? Is the HD-P2 the cheapest recorder with "word clock in"?
there is no way that you'd be able to hit record at exactly the same time on both decks. the key here, however, is that both recordings are using the same digital clock. with this approach, you'd have to spend some time (no more than 2-3 minutes, in my experience) lining up the beginning of the two sources. But once you do that, both recordings stay lined up throughout the rest of the recording. (by contrast, trying to mix two digital recordings that were made with different digital clocks is a huge pain, because of drift that occurs. i.e. you line up both sources at the beginning, and by the end of the set, the two different sources are off, maybe by a few seconds or more.)
and as far as I know, the HD-P2 is the cheapest deck available that has word clock in.
One more scenario question.
With the standard R4 could I do the following:
1. Go S/PDIF in from the V3 to the R4
2. Go SBD analog in to the R4
3. Record two separate wav files on the R4
4. Go home and mix them together. (not sure how to do this)
Would the two wav files by synched without drift?
What if I let the R4 do all of the A/D and just used the V3 as a pre-amp. Would that change things?
no, with the standard R4, you could not do as described above, because the standard R4 cannot accept S/PDIF for two channels, and two channels analog in. with a standard R4, your best bet is to run analog in on all four channels. (maybe line-in from the V3 for two channels, and the other two using the R4 pre-amps, or something like that) with the R4 pro, you can run S/PDIF for two channels and analog in for the other two.
for both the R4 and the R4 pro, all channels are recorded with the same clock source and you will have no drft.
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...with the R4 pro, you can run S/PDIF AES/EBU digital for two channels and analog in for the other two.
for both the R4 and the R4 pro, all channels are recorded with the same clock source and you will have no drft.
Fixed the above for you...with the R-4 Pro in Digi+Analog mode, it will sync all 4 channels to the clock of the incoming digital source.
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thanks for that correction. either way, he'll be fine out of a V3, as the V3 has both S/PDIF and AES/EBU outs :)
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Thanks for all of the responses...much appreciated.
It looks like my options are:
1. ~$4,000 - SD 744T.
- Too much $$ for me, so this one is out.
2. ~$2,000 - Edirol R4 Pro.
- This is getting a little pricey, and I'm not sure I want to pay this much. Possible, but I'm not seeing the value.
- I'll get to go digi in from the V3 and use the analog inputs on the unit at the same time (no drift)
- It has SMPTE, should I ever get a pro camera (not likely to happen)
- It has a bigger hard drive than the standard model
- There are probably other major features that I'm missing
3. ~$900 - Edirol R4 (stock)
- I wouldn't be able to go digi in from the V3 and use the analog inputs on the R4 at the same time. And, I wouldn't want to since the thing re-samples on the S/PDIF in anyway.
- I could just use the V3 as pre-amp on 1 & 2 line in plus mics or SBD line in on 3 & 4 (no drift)
- I suppose I could get a mod'd unit for a bit more money and have a unit that can do 4 channels with respectable pres when I don't want to carry the V3 for some reason. (oade = $1100, busman = ??)
4. ~$1000 Tascam HD-P2 (w/mod) + MTII (already own it)
- I could sync the clock on the HD-P2 with my word clock on the V3 with MT II behind (no drift)
- I use the analog in on the device to record, and I record on my MT II at the same time.
- Go home and use a program to "mix" the two wav files (not sure what this is...yet). This is not a huge task since they were recorded with the same clock.
- A mod'd unit is probably the way the way to go.
I'm leaning towards a mod'd R4. I would have a respectable 4 channel standalone unit. If I wanted to, I could run the V3 as a pre line in for something different on two of the channels with no drift. I haven't considered the A/D inside the R4, but I assuming it is respectable. With this config, I could still use my V3 >MT II when I felt like it. And, the MT II is always great for when I need to be low profile with my CSB's. Is there any compelling reason to go with option #4?
Anyone have pic of an R4 and HD-P2 side by side?
WWTS.COMD?
Thanks,
Michael (the budding gear slut with the nervous frugal wife)
EDIT: After all that, I guess I need to include the SD 702 and 722. They both have word clock in/out, so they would operate like the option #4 above, I think. Now, this gets interesting....
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a few points...
with any of the 4 channels options, you'll have to mix the tracks down to stereo at home. this is something you'll be doing with any of the options you listed, not just your option 4.
and yes, all the SD boxes (702, 722, etc) have word clock in and out. so one of those boxes could replace the HD-P2 in the example above. the choice is yours. a modded HD-P2 will still be a good deal cheaper than a 702, but on the other hand, the SD boxes are rock solid, built like a tank, and sound nice on their own (not to say that the HD-P2 is built poorly or isn't a stable recorder, but it's not built like those SD boxes).
the only other thing that I'll comment on is that a brand new (unmodded) HD-P2 is probably more in the $800-$850 range, not $1000. I'm not sure how much Oade's or Busman's mods will run you.
otherwise, I'd say you've got your options laid out nicely.
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a few points...
with any of the 4 channels options, you'll have to mix the tracks down to stereo at home. this is something you'll be doing with any of the options you listed, not just your option 4.
Be prepared to spend some additional time on the 4 channel masters. They will take you a good deal more time to mix and track out. Also, as many people here know, I've been doing multi-track recordings a long time, and just because you have four or more channels doesn't always mean your recordings are going to be loads better than a nice stereo recording. It's all in how your stereo recording is. That will be your prime source for your mix. The soundboard (if you go that route) will be something you use to enhance things like vocals. If you choose to use four microphones, Don't use four cardiods. There isn't a lot that's going to do (at least in a good way, you could run into phase issues and other bad things)...
Just some food for thought.
Wayne
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Thanks again everyone for the wonderful input. I'm going to have to mull this over for a bit.
the only other thing that I'll comment on is that a brand new (unmodded) HD-P2 is probably more in the $800-$850 range, not $1000. I'm not sure how much Oade's or Busman's mods will run you.
Oops. I was quoting the approx. mod price. Updated..thanks.
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I like option 3 w/mod - ie R4 with oade or busman mod.
Don't discount the ease of an all in one setup!
The other options sound messy - unless you really believe the V3's a/d blows
away the R4's. Yes, I'm sure it sounds better, but I'd say the V3's pres (which
you can still use with option 3 just using the analog frontend) are 80% of the V3's overall sound.
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if using the V3 analog out > line in on R4 you are still getting the coloration (or degredation if thats how you characterize it) of the mic pres going that route. if this statement is wrong, let me know, as I'm not 100% sure on that. I guess one other point is that you need a pretty decent playback rig connected to your computer to acurately time-align and master the 4 trks, as well as a good editing program.
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R4 with warm and transparent mods so you can enjoy at least 2 flavors of pre depending on your mood or venue, sell the V3-D8 and put the money into some fun mic sluttin'. Not that I don't like V3s but it takes something out of the signal chain and lightens the gear bag...just a thought.
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I don't have any experience with Busman mods myself but I can heartily recommend Oade's ACM R-4 (which is quieter and warmer than the stock unit), especially if you plan on buying 480s. I don't think you'll miss the V3, and it's one less thing to lug around.
http://www.oade.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OBA&Product_Code=EDR4ARCHACM&Category_Code=EDR4ARCHACM
Samples of a matrix made with the ACM R-4, mono sbd split to channels 1 & 2 and 481s on 3 & 4:
http://keithfromny.org/downloads/otr2007-10-05d1t03.wav
http://keithfromny.org/downloads/otr2007-10-05d1t16.wav
Samples of 481s only on channels 3 & 4:
http://keithfromny.org/downloads/cj2007-10-19d104.wav
http://keithfromny.org/downloads/cj2007-10-19d207.wav
http://keithfromny.org/downloads/dtb2007-11-17d1t01.wav
(no post processing on any of these except gain adjustments and sbd/mics synchronization)
I haven't made any 4 mic recordings myself yet, my new year's resolution is to get another pair of 480s with ck62 caps or a matched pair of 414s.
Good luck!