Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: georgeh on January 22, 2008, 08:20:05 AM
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hey now
there is a bar down here in fl that forces you to record from the side of the room, or if the band will allow it from the stage. Rather then try and pull a recording from the side, and i mean the side by the wall, not off center, i think i'd like to try from the stage.
My options for mics are mg20 or a large diaphram card, i am guessing stick with the gefells.
mic config? NOS or din, i was thinking. and how high? or should i try and split the mics? Basically jam bands will be the genre.
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I run my gefells on-stage all the time. usually ORTF or DIN with great results. what "large diaphram card" do you have access to? the gefells will work great, but that isn't to say other mics won't sound good as well.
for height, I usually run at 3 or 4 feet.
Of course, as noted in plenty of other threads and discussions, vocals will be quiet when recording from the stage. so hopefully the bands you'll be recording are instrumental.
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thanks, lost of vocals was a concideration. the large diaphram are EH-C2, i may want to run side by side if i had another pre, but seeing as i don't, the gefells are the safer bet probably. i also imagine if the band is using monitors, vs ear pieces, you'd get more voices, basically off the monitors.
first run will probably be tim reynolds, although i may run for a local bluegrass band, and should to hear how it comes out.
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George, I just recorded Existor on NYE on-stage. I ran a 90 degree XY from the stage lip, with a floor wedge monitor in close proximity to capture the vocals. They are still weaker in gain compared to the instruments, but they are audible.
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I have similar questions and was going to make a thread.
I plan on stage taping a solo acoustic performance on Friday.
I will be running the new busman mics. I do not plan to split the mics. I plan to run on a onstage stand.
What height should I run them at and also what caps should I use?
I have hpyers card wide card and omni.
Keith
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I have similar questions and was going to make a thread.
I plan on stage taping a solo acoustic performance on Friday.
I will be running the new busman mics. I do not plan to split the mics. I plan to run on a onstage stand.
What height should I run them at and also what caps should I use?
I have hpyers card wide card and omni.
Keith
wide card NOS
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looks like i'll try to run for some local bands with a combo of setups. i might try the large diaphram to capture more vocals, if that theory holds up.
Brad, didn't think you ever ran xy, mind explaining why you did.
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Like Brad I always ran XY90 on-stage. I recently began toying some with ORTF to get an idea of the imaging. I bet $1 that you get different results with different acts. Just think about acoustic bluegrass VS jamband, for example. &ust get out and experiment, keep good notes on what your ears prefer, and most important: HAVE FUN!
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I have similar questions and was going to make a thread.
I plan on stage taping a solo acoustic performance on Friday.
I will be running the new busman mics. I do not plan to split the mics. I plan to run on a onstage stand.
What height should I run them at and also what caps should I use?
I have hpyers card wide card and omni.
Keith
wide card NOS
now to sound like a total NOOB...can someone share how to set up in NOS or a picture that shows it. I have never run NOS before.
Keith
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I have similar questions and was going to make a thread.
I plan on stage taping a solo acoustic performance on Friday.
I will be running the new busman mics. I do not plan to split the mics. I plan to run on a onstage stand.
What height should I run them at and also what caps should I use?
I have hpyers card wide card and omni.
Keith
wide card NOS
now to sound like a total NOOB...can someone share how to set up in NOS or a picture that shows it. I have never run NOS before.
Keith
here is the link keith to diagrams of various configs
http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/MicConfigTemplate.pdf
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FYI......my uncle taped Steve Kimock on-stage in XY for a decade before changing over to ORTF.......must be something to it!
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I have similar questions and was going to make a thread.
I plan on stage taping a solo acoustic performance on Friday.
I will be running the new busman mics. I do not plan to split the mics. I plan to run on a onstage stand.
What height should I run them at and also what caps should I use?
I have hpyers card wide card and omni.
Keith
wide card NOS
I would strongly disagree with this
it's a solo acoustic performance, not a band. Think about the sound source - it will be tight and focused and directly in front of the mics. Running a wide pattern will exaggerate the sound-stage to an unnatural degree.
run cards x/y at about 100*
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I plan on stage taping a solo acoustic performance on Friday.
I will be running the new busman mics. I do not plan to split the mics. I plan to run on a onstage stand.
What height should I run them at and also what caps should I use?
I have hpyers card wide card and omni.
I don't think we know enough to give advice, yet. What instrument? Singing, too? Amplified or unamplified acoustic? If amplified, on-stage monitors or in-ear? Will there be an on-stage amp?
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looks like i'll try to run for some local bands with a combo of setups. i might try the large diaphram to capture more vocals, if that theory holds up.
Brad, didn't think you ever ran xy, mind explaining why you did.
Correct, I never run XY in normal taping situations because I like the slight phase effect with DINa and ORTF and don't like the heavy centering of the image with XY from a distance. However, with an on-stage of a band, you are recording the raw instruments and backline amps along with a drum kit. There will be wide separation and localization of the positions of everything on stage simply due to the close setup of the mic rig. For this application, I have found that pure coincidence XY with the capsules completely in phase gets the best result.
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There is no cut and dry or "one size fits all" answer. The data by Williams explains what determines angles and distances between microphones. It will get you within one or two moves from a perfect placement. If you have no choice but put up the mics and tape, this will hand you the best chance of getting it good the first time.
http://www.rycote.com/assets/documents/technical_files/The%20Stereophonic%20Zoom.pdf
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I have similar questions and was going to make a thread.
I plan on stage taping a solo acoustic performance on Friday.
I will be running the new busman mics. I do not plan to split the mics. I plan to run on a onstage stand.
What height should I run them at and also what caps should I use?
I have hpyers card wide card and omni.
Keith
wide card NOS
What he said
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heres a few pics of the onstage setup last weekend at jerry joseph... http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97397.0.html
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I'm a coincident fan myself when running on stage or at the lip.
In fact, the more FOB I am (right up to the stage), the more likely I am to run some form of coincident method.
on stage XY between 90 -120deg is awesome.
If the mix is "just exactly perfect" on stage, then blumlien is the way to go (or if taping un-amplified instruments / musicians). and, if you are considering XY ,then MS is also sweet as you get to play with various XY angles upon mixing.)
If you have LD mics that are good...I'd use those on stage.
the closer you are to the sound source, the better LD sounds.
as you move back into the crowd in any given venue, the SD mics tend to shine as they respond faster to the weaker pressure in the air (my thoughts have always been that taping from a distance w/LD mics sounds sluggish to me when compared to an equal rig w/SD mics from the same location. many 480 vs 414 comps in the past brought me to this conclusion).
but, thats just my thought process and opinion.
Its hard to make a stage tape that would be truly "bad".
experiment. two sets...two different configs.
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I plan on stage taping a solo acoustic performance on Friday.
I will be running the new busman mics. I do not plan to split the mics. I plan to run on a onstage stand.
What height should I run them at and also what caps should I use?
I have hpyers card wide card and omni.
I don't think we know enough to give advice, yet. What instrument? Singing, too? Amplified or unamplified acoustic? If amplified, on-stage monitors or in-ear? Will there be an on-stage amp?
Guitar and singing. Amplified and monitor
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For vocals with stage recording, it's best to use a 4-track recorder like the R4 or 744 where you can get a separate line for the SBD recording. A straight PA feed and stage mics will almost always mix well together. If you think about what is on each recording, in a small venue, the PA feed reinforces the sound that is not coming off the stage and the stage mics capture what is not in the PA. If you listen to each individually, most times (again in smaller venues), neither will be mixed well on its own, but on some ratio, it will sound perfect.
When the SBD is not next to the stage, to do this, you'll need to ask to use the soundguy's snake to get your stage feed back to the board area where you can also get a PA feed. If that's not an option, I have as a last resort, mic'd the stage monitors with a second set of mics (again, make sure you ask before you do this, but that should be common sense), but again, the PA mix is definitely preferable to the monitor mix as the "SBD" feed, especially if there is more than one stage monitor mix. If you're mic'ing the stage monitors, make sure you mic the horn, not the woofer.
If you don't have a 4-track recorder (or at least 4 inputs like a UA-5), try to at least get in some proximity to the monitor to pick up as much vocals as you can. Here's some samples:
Mics + PA:
http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2007-08-09.1644-Matrix
Mics + monitor:
http://www.archive.org/details/Sage2007-12-23.1644-Matrix.flac16
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I'm a coincident fan myself when running on stage or at the lip.
In fact, the more FOB I am (right up to the stage), the more likely I am to run some form of coincident method.
on stage XY between 90 -120deg is awesome.
If the mix is "just exactly perfect" on stage, then blumlien is the way to go (or if taping un-amplified instruments / musicians). and, if you are considering XY ,then MS is also sweet as you get to play with various XY angles upon mixing.)
If you have LD mics that are good...I'd use those on stage.
the closer you are to the sound source, the better LD sounds.
as you move back into the crowd in any given venue, the SD mics tend to shine as they respond faster to the weaker pressure in the air (my thoughts have always been that taping from a distance w/LD mics sounds sluggish to me when compared to an equal rig w/SD mics from the same location. many 480 vs 414 comps in the past brought me to this conclusion).
but, thats just my thought process and opinion.
Its hard to make a stage tape that would be truly "bad".
experiment. two sets...two different configs.
I agree with everything said here
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For vocals with stage recording, it's best to use a 4-track recorder like the R4 or 744 where you can get a separate line for the SBD recording. A straight PA feed and stage mics will almost always mix well together. If you think about what is on each recording, in a small venue, the PA feed reinforces the sound that is not coming off the stage and the stage mics capture what is not in the PA. If you listen to each individually, most times (again in smaller venues), neither will be mixed well on its own, but on some ratio, it will sound perfect.
When the SBD is not next to the stage, to do this, you'll need to ask to use the soundguy's snake to get your stage feed back to the board area where you can also get a PA feed. If that's not an option, I have as a last resort, mic'd the stage monitors with a second set of mics (again, make sure you ask before you do this, but that should be common sense), but again, the PA mix is definitely preferable to the monitor mix as the "SBD" feed, especially if there is more than one stage monitor mix. If you're mic'ing the stage monitors, make sure you mic the horn, not the woofer.
If you don't have a 4-track recorder (or at least 4 inputs like a UA-5), try to at least get in some proximity to the monitor to pick up as much vocals as you can. Here's some samples:
Mics + PA:
http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2007-08-09.1644-Matrix
Mics + monitor:
http://www.archive.org/details/Sage2007-12-23.1644-Matrix.flac16
this is what i have been doing alot lately. highly recommend the onstage + sbd recordings.
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What about mix the two after the fact?
Mixing a board patch with a X-Y recording on stage?
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What about mix the two after the fact?
Mixing a board patch with a X-Y recording on stage?
absolutely.
i've been mixing the 2 sbd channels equally (in post so they sound the same out of each channel) then use the onstage to add the stereo image.
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What about mix the two after the fact?
Mixing a board patch with a X-Y recording on stage?
That's a bit harder if you're not recording with a 4-track recorder because you have to worry about drift from not using the same wordclock for each recording. If you're going to do that, first cut both files at exactly the same spot. Then resample one of the files to the highest sameple rate you can (like 192k or something). Then use one of the wave editing programs (like Soundforge or whatever) to correct the length of that file to as close to the length of the other file. The accuracy you can achieve is inversely related to the sample rate of the file, which is why you must resample to the highest rate first. After the file is time-aligned, then resample back to the sample rate of the other file. Like this (all this can be done with Soundforge or a multitude of other wave editors):
1. Cut SBD & aud at the exact same spots.
2. Resample aud to 192k.
3. Stretch aud to be as close to SBD time as possible.
4. Resample aud to SBD sample rate.
5. Mix.
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Thanks for all the advice.
I think I am going to go with:
X-Y with the Cards on Stage at 3-4 feet
also record the board then mix in post.
I have yet to do the mix on the fly with the UA5. This is not the show I want to practice on.
Thanks again everyone.
Keith
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What about mix the two after the fact?
Mixing a board patch with a X-Y recording on stage?
I recently got fantastic results using SBD>Microtrack plus DPA 4060s (ie omnis) spaced about two feet apart, taped to a guitar stand just in front of the wedges>Iriver 320.
Dropped both recordings into Vegas (time-stretched one so they matched up) and mixed them 1:1. The band was 3x acoustic guitars, 4x vocals and a drummer.
Both recordings sounded good in isolation but when mixed together, the audience tape lends a bit more low-end and a more natural stereo image as well as capturing the audience response in a more subtle way than a 'proper' audience tape would.
It was very much a bodged together, spur of the moment effort but the results are very promising. +T to all for all the excellent ideas here - looking forward to more experimentation...
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One more quick question about the placement of the stand.
Where exactly am I going to place my stand?
Directly infront of the performer on the stage or just off the stage directly infront of the performer?
Keith