Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: idiot-joy-showtaper on February 02, 2008, 06:27:00 PM
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Hello, new here :D
I've been taping one band (The Fall)'s gigs for about a year on a Sony Hi-MD unit (can't remember exactly which) with a Sony ECM-719 mic and although very pleased with the results, I'm looking to step up to using an Edirol R09.
The friend whose R09 caught my eye told me that I may need to look around at different microphones to maintain the standard of recording I've been able to acheive up to now.
I don't want to use anything beyond a standard plug-in mic, as although I enjoy taping and distributing my recordings, I like to keep the amount of work I need to do on the night of the gig, so I'm effectively after the most compact/tactile equipment possible.
Can anyone give me advice on a suitable mic for the job? I'm basically interested in maintaining my current standard of recording, but without the hassle/cost of Minidiscs, nor the hassle of pre-amps/battery boxes etc...
I've heard the ECM719 misbehaves a bit when used with the R09, is this actually the case?
I've got a small-ish budget for the mic, been looking at an Audio Technica PRO 35, and a Sennheiser MKE 2-EW-3. The latter being more suitable for my budget..
Hope some of you have got some useful advice :)
apoligies for the luddite-line of questioning....
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+t for taping The Fall... Mark E Smith still alive and sneering ;-)
You'll find that most ppl here run the R09 with a pre or bbox.
Make some searches at the Kickdown Central for common setups.
If you're dead set against external powering, you'll achieve better sound sticking the RH1, honestly. Boojum here on the forum can vouch for that, as well as arni99.
Otherwise you'd better look for mics with internal batteries.
You didn't mention wheter you're solely looking for stealth mics, but I guess as much, being in Europe.
I take it that your budget is around 350-400 EUR (=$500-$600), from the mics that you mention.
For that money, you can get decent mics AND a pre or bbox. It's not that much more to crotch, and setting up the rig only takes you a minute more or two...
You should consider the Church combo:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,96537.0.html
/Jan
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If you're dead set against external powering, you'll achieve better sound sticking the RH1, honestly. Boojum here on the forum can vouch for that, as well as arni99.
Funnily enough, I've just been looking at one of those... very attractive little machine. I'm tempted :D
Still open to suggestions though, but may well be steering back to my hi-md roots 8)
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+t for taping The Fall... Mark E Smith still alive and sneering ;-)
:D :D :D
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Hi - Arni, in Vienna, and I have moved on to other recorders but still have our RH1's. If you have one you have a machine with an excellent set of pre-amps which can record WAV files. I would spend the money on mics. Microphone Madness, Sound Professionals and Church all sell small mics, card and omni, which would work well for you. I have the MM-HLSC-1's (Sennheisers) and the SP-CMC-4U's (Audio Technica). They are both good mics. I cannot vouch for Church mics but many here use them and like them. I use a battery box with my mics. It is not necessary but allows higher SPL's (Sound Pressure Levels, or dB) without distortion. The mics I got cost ~$250 or ~$300 a pair.
With the RH1 and a set of the mics I can carry my recording gear in my pocket. I do not tape other than in the open. But I do like small and light.
I hope you continue to have fun recording. It is a great combination of geek and freak. ;o)
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Another +T for taping The Fall...my favorite band of all time. Can't wait until they come back to the States.
No advice on mics. I'm not familiar with less expensive stealthy mics. I used to use Core Sound Binaurals and they were pretty good. I recall them costing about $300. I'm sure you could find them for less used. Church Audio also makes some pretty nice mics for not too much money. I MUCH prefer Chris Church over Len at Core Sound when it comes to good business practices.
If I were to be a MD taper and had money to spend, I would skip the R-09 and spend all of your money on mics. I'd rather have nicer mics and a lower end recorder.
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From a himd to an r9 isnt really upgrading...any improvements will be made with mics..specifically getting away from that sony ecm mic.
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I agree completely with Boojum (except for the MM-HLSC-1). You will hear much more improvement in your recordings by upgrading that mic. If you upgrade only recorders, you most likely won't hear any improvement. The Sony HiMD recorders get great results if used properly, although I've only used the RH-1. If you upgrade the mic and later upgrade the recorder to something like the R-09, you may not hear an improvement in your recordings, but you will be able to record uncompressed audio for far longer than 94 minutes, which can be a big advantage. Changing media on the fly can be a real hassle. I like my RH-1 because the Hi-SP mode (7 hours +) sounds indistinguishable to me from the PCM mode, so I use it when I need to record long sets. Most people here would disagree with me though, but you do whatever works best for you.
I would steer you away from the MM-HLSC-1's though. I've made many good recordings with mine, but one channel it 4 DB louder than the other and I've heard reports that many of these mics come badly matched. Plus Chris Church says they need the 4.7 K mod to handle high SPL's well. I haven't had that problem, even with Iggy Popp, but I don't record near the stacks. You can get good results with them but I would suggest getting the Church Mics or the SP-CMC-4U's instead. The Church mics are excellent mics and are much cheaper than the other mics of similar quality, so give them some thought.
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I'm looking to step up to using an Edirol R09.
The friend whose R09 caught my eye told me that I may need to look around at different microphones to maintain the standard of recording I've been able to acheive up to now.
I don't want to use anything beyond a standard plug-in mic, as although I enjoy taping and distributing my recordings, I like to keep the amount of work I need to do on the night of the gig, so I'm effectively after the most compact/tactile equipment possible.
Can anyone give me advice on a suitable mic for the job? I'm basically interested in maintaining my current standard of recording, but without the hassle/cost of Minidiscs, nor the hassle of pre-amps/battery boxes etc...
Hi again,
If you really want to sacrifice the pre/bbox for stealthability, guysonic does a mod for the R09 which fits your description exactly:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83254.msg1105232.html#msg1105232
The Marantz mod looks even more tempting though!
I can't tell how it compares to others running r09 with external powering, but maybe guysonic can point you in the right direction for some samples?
/Jan
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I don't want to use anything beyond a standard plug-in mic, as although I enjoy taping and distributing my recordings, I like to keep the amount of work I need to do on the night of the gig, so I'm effectively after the most compact/tactile equipment possible.
Can anyone give me advice on a suitable mic for the job? I'm basically interested in maintaining my current standard of recording, but without the hassle/cost of Minidiscs, nor the hassle of pre-amps/battery boxes etc...
I'd say that virtually any popular microphone (well, not an SM58...) would be a step up from the Sony one and that it might be worth looking into battery boxes - you might be surprised at how small they can be.
And they're not really that much extra hassle on the night: it's just plug mics into battery box, plug box into recorder...
I'm a little perplexed by your mics of choice though - if you go with the Sennheiser you'll need to snip the plugs off and re-wire to a single 3.5 mm jack if you want to use your R09's plug-in power, unless you're intending to go mono, of course. From a moment's Googling, it appears that the AT one comes with an XLR plug so that'll need an adaptor or change of plug too - even if you are intending to go mono (yuk).
If I were you, I'd check out the decent sets that Sound Professionals do and maybe consider going with a battery box. Edit: and don't forget Chris Church either...
If you're taping the Fall's forthcoming Salford date, drop me a line and I can lend you my old set of Coresound 'Binaurals' - not the world's finest mics but a step up from your Sony and a chance to see how you go with a battery box.
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^^^^ The Microphone Madness Sennheisers (MM-HLSC-1) come with the 3.5mm TRS (stereo) plug wired to it, of course. Mine match just fine.
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Church Audio STC-11 > R-09 is a pretty viable setup.
http://dimwell.net/ff2008-01-26_sample.mp3
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^^^^ The Microphone Madness Sennheisers (MM-HLSC-1) come with the 3.5mm TRS (stereo) plug wired to it, of course. Mine match just fine.
I've just picked up a set of these this week on the Yard Sale, as it happens - Church-modded and seemingly nicely matched, couldn't be happier :) Then again, I've not used them to tape a gig yet... But even at brand-new price they would seem to be very good value.
I will be holding on to my 4060s, mind you...
But just to clarify, it was the Senn 2-EW-3 that I was talking about above.
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pm sent
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Church Audio STC-11 > R-09 is a pretty viable setup.
That's interesting... I found a few other sources with this rig:
http://www.mininova.org/tor/662332
http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3808853/Prince_-_The_O2__London__28_August_2007
But what are the limitations, compared to running with the 9100 pre or similar?
Will the signal be hot enough, or would you have to apply lots of gain in the R09?
What about lower SPL/acoustic gigs?
/Jan
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As an experiment, I taped a show using a pair of Church Audio STC-11 (omnis) into a Marantz PMD620 (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,91816.msg1302623.html#msg1302623 (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,91816.msg1302623.html#msg1302623)). It worked, and the second set (when I got away from the chatterers) sounds pretty good. If I was really interested in going super low-pro, I would do it again. That being said, though, it just sounds much better with the 9100 in the mix! And still very compact...
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Church Audio STC-11 > R-09 is a pretty viable setup.
That's interesting... I found a few other sources with this rig:
http://www.mininova.org/tor/662332
http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3808853/Prince_-_The_O2__London__28_August_2007
But what are the limitations, compared to running with the 9100 pre or similar?
Will the signal be hot enough, or would you have to apply lots of gain in the R09?
What about lower SPL/acoustic gigs?
I ran the R-09 on mic-in around 13 (a common theory for the "unity" value) and did normalization in post on that Foo Fighters show. I can easily see it not being enough for quiet/acoustic gigs, but Chris has said that the 5v from the R-09 is enough to give the mics all the power they need (link (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,80892.msg1299244.html#msg1299244)) for high-SPL situations.
For quiet/acoustic stuff, I'd definitely recommend the pre-amp. For rock shows, however, you can get by without it.
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If I was really interested in going super low-pro, I would do it again. That being said, though, it just sounds much better with the 9100 in the mix! And still very compact...
This is pretty much how I felt about it. I'm still not savvy enough to stealth the R-09 and the 9100 in an aggressive pat-down, but getting the R-09 and a pair of mics through the door is super easy.
I agree, though. The 9100 does make the whole rig sound better. I run it when I can, but it's nice to know that I can leave it out, too.
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I'm still not savvy enough to stealth the R-09 and the 9100 in an aggressive pat-down, but getting the R-09 and a pair of mics through the door is super easy.
I agree, though. The 9100 does make the whole rig sound better. I run it when I can, but it's nice to know that I can leave it out, too.
+T to both of ya for experimenting, that's good news! More versatility with either the 620 or R09 in the rig.
How about an H120 powering the STC-11? But it provides even lower voltage, AFAIR?!
/Jan