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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: macdaddy on March 03, 2012, 10:17:51 AM

Title: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on March 03, 2012, 10:17:51 AM
looks like the part four thread is past its due date, so as the newest member of the team, i figured i would start a new thread (nolafishwater will have to lock part 4)....

old discussion wrapped up here (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=123284.390).
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on March 03, 2012, 10:27:48 AM
used the unit last night for the first time.

is the usb transfer slow for everybody..? was hoping to not have to pull the card out each time...

the final voltage number is voltage before shutdown, not what the battery is rated at, correct.? this is why the twelve volt setting will get a low batt warning with an ac adaptor, right..?

cant believe this thing is smaller than the hd-p2.

thx for the help (here and in the remote power thread (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=144811.0))
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: 1Cylinder on March 03, 2012, 02:04:56 PM
I haven't found the USB transfer to be particularly slow. What are you comparing it to?

When I first got my R-44 that low battery warning was driving me nuts! You can get rid of that warning display by setting the power source switch on the unit to external battery. (Don't have my R-44 in front of me at the moment, so "external battery" might not be the correct name of the setting - but there's only a couple settings so it should be easy to figure it out.)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: bryonsos on March 03, 2012, 03:20:36 PM
 :spin:
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on March 03, 2012, 05:06:31 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on March 03, 2012, 05:31:24 PM
twenty minutes for less than five gigs to transfer. using a usb card reader, the same computer, and a cf card from the hd-p2, this size transfer would take half that time, if not less...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 04, 2012, 12:18:42 AM
:spin:

x2


I set the power setting to adapter for use with 9V DVD batts years ago and have never changed it and remove the card for transfers.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: kirk97132 on March 04, 2012, 07:34:42 PM
Always got faster transfers not using the deck.  Considered it a field option if I was on the road and didn't have card reader handy.  BUt was defineatly slowest method of transfer.  Internal Teac reader fast, external reader ok, deck slow.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Colin Liston on March 04, 2012, 07:53:17 PM
just checking in
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on March 05, 2012, 05:12:47 PM
Always got faster transfers not using the deck.  Considered it a field option if I was on the road and didn't have card reader handy.  BUt was defineatly slowest method of transfer.  Internal Teac reader fast, external reader ok, deck slow.

Yeah, that seems to be the case.  Would not be surprised if the USB on the R-44 wasn't up to 2.0 spec.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on March 05, 2012, 05:37:39 PM
fcb, this is exactly what i thought, too.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on March 16, 2012, 07:11:57 PM
just got my R-44 with Oade concert mod and am trying to get it set up for use in the field.  with respect to the settings for use of the R-44 with an external battery, the manual says to select "final voltage" in the "system setup" menu.  i've done that and set the final voltage to 9v.  i have a Battery Geek battery that is switchable between 9v and 12v.  when the battery is set to 9v the R-44 gives me a "low battery" warning even though my battery is fully charged.  when i switch the battery to 12v (leaving the "final voltage" setting on the R-44 at 9v) the R-44 shows there is a fully charged battery attached.  is this normal?  i don't mind running my battery at the 12v setting if the R-44 prefers it, but i thought i'd have the option of running it at 9v without any issues.   thanks.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on March 16, 2012, 07:48:39 PM
if you check the manual, it calls the final voltage the lowest voltage possible before shutdown. so it should be lower than the regular voltage of your battery output. i run a twelve volt batt. i set it to 9 volts, and never see the low batt warning. it will turn off on you, too. i set the thing to twelve volts, and the ac adapter was connected, and i got the low batt message and then the machine shut down. that's when i posted one page back about this, and dug into the manual...

hth
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on March 16, 2012, 07:57:42 PM
You shouldn't have any issues running the R-44 off of 9v.  I haven't run into any using the 9v DVD batteries.  Rather than set a final voltage value, I've always kept the Ext-Power setting on "Adapter" and had AA batteries in the deck's tray.  That way the unit sees the external battery as an AC source and, if it should run down, the R-44 will automatically and seamlessly switch over to the internal batteries if need be.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on March 16, 2012, 08:26:07 PM
thanks for the feedback.  it sounds like i have a couple of options...

1) set the final voltage to 9v and run my battery at 12v.
2) leave the R-44 set to "adapter", run my ext. battery at 9v and keep AA batteries in the R-44 tray as back-up.

i like options.... options are good.  i'll experiment and see what works best.
 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on March 16, 2012, 09:18:07 PM
i think there is a voltage setting lower than 9. check it. if there is, a setting like six volts should work fine...


like i said, the manual explains what this setting is about better than i am right now...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: bryonsos on March 16, 2012, 10:12:28 PM
You shouldn't have any issues running the R-44 off of 9v.  I haven't run into any using the 9v DVD batteries.  Rather than set a final voltage value, I've always kept the Ext-Power setting on "Adapter" and had AA batteries in the deck's tray.  That way the unit sees the external battery as an AC source and, if it should run down, the R-44 will automatically and seamlessly switch over to the internal batteries if need be.

This.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on March 16, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
thanks for the feedback.  it sounds like i have a couple of options...

1) set the final voltage to 9v and run my battery at 12v.
2) leave the R-44 set to "adapter", run my ext. battery at 9v and keep AA batteries in the R-44 tray as back-up.

i like options.... options are good.  i'll experiment and see what works best.

option #2 is the way to go i think.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on March 17, 2012, 02:15:45 AM
You shouldn't have any issues running the R-44 off of 9v.  I haven't run into any using the 9v DVD batteries.  Rather than set a final voltage value, I've always kept the Ext-Power setting on "Adapter" and had AA batteries in the deck's tray.  That way the unit sees the external battery as an AC source and, if it should run down, the R-44 will automatically and seamlessly switch over to the internal batteries if need be.

This.

This.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on April 11, 2012, 08:13:02 PM
why does the r-44 put 100 track markers at the start of each recording..? is there a way to make it so this doesnt happen..?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on April 11, 2012, 08:53:00 PM
why does the r-44 put 100 track markers at the start of each recording..? is there a way to make it so this doesnt happen..?

I forgot it did that.  I'm not aware of a setting to prevent it.  I sometimes set markers on playback from the machine for convenience, but I never set them during recording.  But in that case you wouldn't know they are there in the file (using them while operating playback of the recorder) until you copy the files to the computer.  You can set your FLAC encoder to ignore them along with other metadata, or probably use other WAV tools to strip them out.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on April 12, 2012, 09:47:00 PM
why does the r-44 put 100 track markers at the start of each recording..? is there a way to make it so this doesnt happen..?

I forgot it did that.  I'm not aware of a setting to prevent it.  I sometimes set markers on playback from the machine for convenience, but I never set them during recording.  But in that case you wouldn't know they are there in the file (using them while operating playback of the recorder) until you copy the files to the computer.  You can set your FLAC encoder to ignore them along with other metadata, or probably use other WAV tools to strip them out.

Always wondered about this myself.  I usually just strip them out in Audition.  A minor annoyance but, for those that still burn playable CDs, there are some burning programs that will not burn a CD-R if there are markers on/in a track.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: RichT on May 04, 2012, 02:42:06 PM
An update on the sync business, here's my Tascam HD-P2 hooked up over word clock to the R-44 as master

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ARclDfdK8Ng/T6QcAbpHUYI/AAAAAAAAAb0/uBgsk0WTewM/s727/20120504_185432.jpg)

(SP/dif is hoooked up to something which isn't on)

Recorded 30mins with 2 claps, no drift.
http://rtsound.net/?p=191


I haven't had the issue with the markers before, does it need the firmware updating?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: DigiGal on May 23, 2012, 02:56:26 PM
PortaBrace is finally making a case for the R44, it's Model/Part number is AR-R44 linked here. (http://www.portabrace.com/products/audio/768-audio-recorder-case-roland-edirol-r44?utm_source=New+AR-NMD+Zaxcom+Recorder+Case&utm_campaign=Dealer+Hard+Case+B2G1&utm_medium=email)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on May 23, 2012, 03:10:14 PM
thx for the link...

two bills..? that is alot of scratch...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: H₂O on May 23, 2012, 03:21:21 PM
$150-250 is the going rate of recorder PB bags - so $200 seems ballpark to me
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on May 23, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
$150 too much......sheesh.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Colin Liston on June 21, 2012, 05:22:25 PM
Just marking.  Carry on
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 21, 2012, 05:42:23 PM
Just marking.  Carry on

(http://images.wildmadagascar.org/pictures/isalo/ringtails_isalo044.jpg)

I prefer this one, but it's NSFW TS sewer-bound material-
http://www.supremepower.co.uk/Marking%20Your%20Territory.jpg
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on June 28, 2012, 06:35:25 PM
this question may have been asked and answered, so apologies in advance if that's the case...

when using 4 mics and recording to two separate stereo tracks (stereo X2) the individual track meters (1,2,3,4) show good levels with no clipping but the stereo mix meter (L-R) shows hotter levels with mild clipping.  can someone tell my why this is happening and what i should do to correct it.  thanks. 

added info: i always set the inner and outer level knobs at 12 Noon, and individual track levels peak around -6 db (if it's a very loud show levels will peak at -3 db).
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: bhadella on June 29, 2012, 08:06:17 AM
this question may have been asked and answered, so apologies in advance if that's the case...

when using 4 mics and recording to two separate stereo tracks (stereo X2) the individual track meters (1,2,3,4) show good levels with no clipping but the stereo mix meter (L-R) shows hotter levels with mild clipping.  can someone tell my why this is happening and what i should do to correct it.  thanks. 

added info: i always set the inner and outer level knobs at 12 Noon, and individual track levels peak around -6 db (if it's a very loud show levels will peak at -3 db).

The stereo mix meter show the output to the headphone output.  You can change the signal to the headphone amp by pressing down on the Monitor Select (Headphone gain knob) and it will toggle thru the output options.  The default setting is the sum of the 4 channels into a stereo output, hence your clipping on the mix meter than individual meters.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 29, 2012, 09:33:23 AM
What Brian said.  I'll just add that it doesn't effect your recording, so unless you are using the headphone output (or mixed channel output to the RCAs) you can ignore the clipping on the stereo output buss.  If it bothers you, push the headphone gain knob until you mute all output (I think that's one of the options), or until you are monitoring only one channel or one channel pair.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on June 29, 2012, 08:23:18 PM
^^^thanks^^^ the responses were very helpful.   :)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tapernateva on June 30, 2012, 10:28:05 AM
Used mine for the first time Tuesday ran a 6 channel matrix using the sd442 for the mikes and a on the fly matrix ran
Ch1&2 digital in via
Ak50-lc3-km100-442(ch1&2)-xlr-v3-digi out
Mixed with
Ak40-lc3-km100-442(ch3&4)-xlr-v3-digi out
Then ran a sbd feed into the r44 ch3&4
I will post the show soon
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tapernateva on July 06, 2012, 10:15:47 AM
heres the link to my first time running the r44 and the sd442

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=156757.0
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: edtyre on July 08, 2012, 02:45:17 AM
My R-44 stopped working with an external battery. The last 25 shows i have done just with 4 AA Powerex.
Recording time is 6 hours+ used just as a bit bucket going digi in.

I know other tapers have had this problem as well. Has anyone sent their unit back to Edirol/Roland for service?
How much did this cost?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: DigiGal on July 08, 2012, 12:40:12 PM
My R-44 stopped working with an external battery. The last 25 shows i have done just with 4 AA Powerex.
Recording time is 6 hours+ used just as a bit bucket going digi in.

I know other tapers have had this problem as well. Has anyone sent their unit back to Edirol/Roland for service?
How much did this cost?

Hey Ed, check with [vegeta_ban].  I remember [last year?] he had the problem and was sending it in for repair but I don't think he posted the final outcome.

Just happened to think it seems this is happening frequent enough with the R-44 using external power much like the Tascam DR680 to be a concern.

Roland uses a reverse polarity power cable, perhaps it got hooked up to a standard convention with a [center pos (+)] cable.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on July 09, 2012, 03:35:30 PM
Has the a/c input stopped working altogether or just with external batteries?  At the risk of stating the obvious, have you tried a few different external batteries to rule out that the problem isn't with the battery?  Did you change any of the settings in the powering menu on the R-44 (how do you set it, for that matter)?  As DigiGal pointed out, it could be some wires crossing with the Edirol/Roland's reversed polarity at the input.  IIRC, I believe someone pointed out that there's a non-user serviceable fuse that can get tripped on the power input. 

While I have seen a handful of TS'ers write on here about this, it's not nearly affecting the same number of machines or with the frequency as the Tascam 680 and its powering issue.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 09, 2012, 06:03:38 PM
My external power input failed when it was under guarantee.  I took it to the local official repair place but they had no service manual - that took some time to arrive, then they ordered spares which also took some time - it was off the road for some weeks.  However, that was in the quite early days and things may be better now.  And it was in Australia.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: edtyre on July 09, 2012, 08:22:49 PM
Has the a/c input stopped working altogether or just with external batteries?  At the risk of stating the obvious, have you tried a few different external batteries to rule out that the problem isn't with the battery?  Did you change any of the settings in the powering menu on the R-44 (how do you set it, for that matter)?  As DigiGal pointed out, it could be some wires crossing with the Edirol/Roland's reversed polarity at the input.  IIRC, I believe someone pointed out that there's a non-user serviceable fuse that can get tripped on the power input. 

While I have seen a handful of TS'ers write on here about this, it's not nearly affecting the same number of machines or with the frequency as the Tascam 680 and its powering issue.

It won't work with a/c or external batteries. I have 5 batteries that can power it and none of them will (they all power other devices)
I bought this unit when they first came out and it's worked perfect for 3+ years. My guess would be the internal fuse. Most of my shows i run it as a 2 channel bit bucket,
so 6 hrs on the AA's is fine. If i was running 2 channels or 4 channels with 48p on, i would have sent it in for service already  :( 
Just wanted to know if any of the many R-44 users on this board sent their unit in for repair and how much it cost.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: ziko on July 09, 2012, 09:35:36 PM
try calling this. 1-800-380-2580 (ted). he said he is the repair guy and that no parts are available to others when i called. this info was in my notes after extensive looking into when mine blew. my unit was modded and ted cringed. oade was like never heard of a fuse blowing when others looked like they has the issue so....a friend bridged it for 40 bucks if i recall.  i would not recommend that for anyone. it has worked flawlessly. he is a electronics repair guy and said it was such a spec of a fuse it would blow just the next part. that was 2 years ago if i guess. parts were not readily available.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: DigiGal on July 10, 2012, 08:45:11 AM
F4 and F1 are tiny SMD fuses, so they would of course have continuity across them.  If they are open or no continuity they are bad.

There is also a SMD diode D5 in the photo, it should have continuity in one direction and a resistance value like 0.7 ohms with the leads reversed.

The value of the fuses and diode are unknown from this photo without looking at a service manual.


(http://static.pixelpipe.com/86acde83-114e-4e61-b9ff-1c5080cf6d68_m.jpg)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on July 10, 2012, 12:33:31 PM
^^ Wow, you weren't kidding when you said those fuses were tiny!  Thanks for the picture.

Good luck with this, Ed, and please keep us posted if you send it in to get fixed.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: stevetoney on October 26, 2012, 04:12:01 PM
Hey R-44 owners.  I just bought my second one.  Didn't have the first one for long.  I can't even remember why I sold it...no doubt to fund something else.  However I did have an Oade R4Pro for a couple years and it grew into my blood so I'm really happy to have this unit now, which is like a mini-R4Pro.  I bought a stock version...it was a demo version...ebay for $739.  Not a scratch on it.

I think I recall from reading back through this R-44 history that it draws about 450ma in two channel, no phantom power mode.  That's right about what I got with the R4Pro too, so I'm thinking that's a good estimate.

What I'm wondering is whether or not the power consumption changes if you use the R-44 as a bit bucket.  Anybody have any experience or done run-time tests to check? 

TIA.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on October 26, 2012, 04:47:01 PM
Back before I discovered the joys of external DVD batteries, I ran my unmodded R-44 exclusively off the internal AA's with, usually, just two channels of phantom and a pair of 414's.  Running like that, I would consistently get about 3.5 to 4 hours of runtime before the battery indicator on the R-44 would tell me it was about to die.  Since edtyre is alluding to getting about 6 hours using his solely as a bit bucket, it would seem that it has a lower power consumption in that mode.  Not a scientific comparison, YMMV, etc.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on November 06, 2012, 09:45:49 PM
More on that.
So if I were, hypothetically, running 4 channels, 24/48, phamtom power on, using freshly charged NiMH AA batteries...

Would you say I could get 3 hours safely, or just 2?

Problem is the band is known to SOMEtimes pull 2.5 hour sets, but not often.
I can swap batteries during the encore applause, no problem, or I can run external pre's, but I was hoping to just drive the R44 to see how it fares on its own.

Thanks!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: mepaca on November 07, 2012, 04:46:17 AM
use energizer lithiums
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on November 07, 2012, 12:33:22 PM
use energizer lithiums

That's $10 more for every, or every other ticket.
That's how I lived in the SBM-1 days.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: hi and lo on November 07, 2012, 03:56:05 PM
use energizer lithiums

That's $10 more for every, or every other ticket.
That's how I lived in the SBM-1 days.

and please don't do this.... we don't need all those batts ending up in the landfills.

Go with the highest capacity rechargeable you can find and if the run-time doesn't cut it (and an external dvd batt isn't an option), it probably just means this isn't the recorder for the job.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on November 07, 2012, 03:58:02 PM
More on that.
So if I were, hypothetically, running 4 channels, 24/48, phamtom power on, using freshly charged NiMH AA batteries...

Would you say I could get 3 hours safely, or just 2?

Problem is the band is known to SOMEtimes pull 2.5 hour sets, but not often.
I can swap batteries during the encore applause, no problem, or I can run external pre's, but I was hoping to just drive the R44 to see how it fares on its own.

Thanks!

Miracles have been known to happen, but I'd be surprised if you could get much more than 2 hours from internal batteries on the R-44 while running 4 channels with phantom power.  The only way you're going to know for sure is to do a runtime test at home before the big gig.  To play devil's advocate, that's not necessarily a guarantee either: back when I was running my R-44 strictly off internals, I improperly recharged a set of AA batteries that crapped out on me less than 20 minutes into a show and had to do a comically quick deck shutdown and battery switch-out.

With the supplies of the venerated DVD batteries apparently all dried up and them being sold at high prices, I would suggest taking a look at THESE BATTERIES (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=157799.0) if you have the funds for one.  Seems like a pretty good contender and cheap insurance/peace of mind against running out of juice when you need it.


Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on November 10, 2012, 05:48:47 PM
Here's another quick question...

After the show I have this folder on the card:

121108224550.pjt

it contains 1a.wav & 2a.wav

I'm assuming 1a is channels 1 & 2 and 2a is channels 3 & 4. I've been through the manual and about half of 5 threads, 21 pages each, but still can't quite get it. At what point can I rename these in the machine, and can I do so before I ever push record? Does the number of the folder actually mean anything?

My first run was loads of fun. 2.1 hours with 4 channels phantom on 4 AA Nimh. They weren't even charged up in the past week.

The show was short, so I stopped and started a new track after and recorded the howling wind until the batteries saved the file and shut the thing off.

The only thing that I wasn't ready for was the level meters, which I ran peaking at about -3db but the files had to be amplified almost 200% after.
So I guess, run hot?

Anyway, I like it more than the 2r2d, but it IS a handful!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jibooer on November 10, 2012, 07:35:07 PM
Check p.63 of yer manual to change the project name, p.62 for date/time....the r-44 will sequentially name the files withing your project. The numbers are the date and time. i.e, Nov.8,2012 at 22:45:50.

Please give us some details as to your mic setup and situation then we might be able to chime in on your levels. Keep in mind that you should keep the inner knobs (longer ones) at 12 o'clock. It is surprising to me that if you were peaking at -3db that it was necessary to amplify that much in post, IMO that is as 'hot' as I would ever run the R-44...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on November 13, 2012, 11:20:19 AM
Amplifying by 200% is bringing the level up by 6dB. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

The file structure on the Edirol recorders is very easy to manage.   The recorder will play any valid single stereo or mono wav file it sees on the card, but if you want to playback the multichannel recordings, they need to be placed in individual .pjt folders, which I think must be located in the root directory or no more than one level deep in the file structure.  121108224550.pjt is one of those folders.  The folder can be named anything you want, as long as it has the .pjt suffix.  The date setting is convienient for keeping things strait time-wise: 121108224550 = 2012, November, 8th, 10:45:50 PM.  Within any pjt folder the recorder will look for mono, stereo, or multi-channel wav files labled 1.wav / 2.wav / 3.wav etcetera, and will play those simultaneously.  You can recreate the folders and polulate them with wav files renamed to those standards and the machine will play them back simultaneously as multi-channel recordings.

There is no special formatting or creation of special file folders required like with the Tascam machines, a card from a camera will usually work straight away without reformat.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on November 15, 2012, 02:35:09 PM

Please give us some details as to your mic setup and situation then we might be able to chime in on your levels. Keep in mind that you should keep the inner knobs (longer ones) at 12 o'clock. It is surprising to me that if you were peaking at -3db that it was necessary to amplify that much in post, IMO that is as 'hot' as I would ever run the R-44...

OK, so here is the 1st Run of the R44.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100747

No tests, just read a billion pages, the manual and plugged in 4 mics and went to the show.
I have a LOT of new stuff I've been experimenting with, and while I'm still not sure exactly what I want to matrix, I decided to run the R44 first with both the dpa mics (4061 & 4021). Both of them really like to have the full 48v of phantom, so that's what I did. The mics were side by side with the 4061s running Y and the 4021s running XY (I think that's the right terminology.)

The schoepsMK5 were set to card, but I really like the omni setting better, so I'm going to try that tonight. I ran them into the Apogee Mini MP with the output set on Zero, and the levels set at about 40. The MR2 ran Line-In and was set at -4db. (yes, I realize that this is an R44 thread, but it seemed relevant)

When I started the show, both inner and outer knobs were at 12 o'clock, but during the soundcheck I tried to adjust the center knobs to balance everything out. I had read here that the outer knob left artifacts if moved so I thought that a minute bit of the inner knob wiggling would be OK. You can see from the picture how it ended up after the show and more endless inner-knob wiggling. Not OK, I think.

It was still peaking at -3db for the hot parts.

The next show I left the inner knob alone and only used the outer knob. I haven't figured out the display settings exactly to monitor what happens when you move this one, but I got a better tape, and every time I would adjust one channel, it would seem to make all of them level out a bit.
Show 2 was a loud drum'n'bass show, and the original "both knobs at 12" setting was way over the peak, but when looking at the file, once I brought it down to the safer -3db peak, it is really, really low.

With a freshly charged set of enloop 2000mAh batteries I scored exactly 2:38:10 which is not the safety net of the 3 hour DAT, but there is pretty much nothing I will need an external battery for If I can keep this up. There may be times when I want to just let it run and would have to swap batteries at some point but this is a good solid block of time.

The 2nd picture shows where the levels ended up, and the 3rd is the wav file.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: bryonsos on November 15, 2012, 02:52:19 PM

Please give us some details as to your mic setup and situation then we might be able to chime in on your levels. Keep in mind that you should keep the inner knobs (longer ones) at 12 o'clock. It is surprising to me that if you were peaking at -3db that it was necessary to amplify that much in post, IMO that is as 'hot' as I would ever run the R-44...

OK, so here is the 1st Run of the R44.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100747

No tests, just read a billion pages, the manual and plugged in 4 mics and went to the show.
I have a LOT of new stuff I've been experimenting with, and while I'm still not sure exactly what I want to matrix, I decided to run the R44 first with both the dpa mics (4061 & 4021). Both of them really like to have the full 48v of phantom, so that's what I did. The mics were side by side with the 4061s running Y and the 4021s running XY (I think that's the right terminology.)

The schoepsMK5 were set to card, but I really like the omni setting better, so I'm going to try that tonight. I ran them into the Apogee Mini MP with the output set on Zero, and the levels set at about 40. The MR2 ran Line-In and was set at -4db. (yes, I realize that this is an R44 thread, but it seemed relevant)

When I started the show, both inner and outer knobs were at 12 o'clock, but during the soundcheck I tried to adjust the center knobs to balance everything out. I had read here that the outer knob left artifacts if moved so I thought that a minute bit of the inner knob wiggling would be OK. You can see from the picture how it ended up after the show and more endless inner-knob wiggling. Not OK, I think.

It was still peaking at -3db for the hot parts.

The next show I left the inner knob alone and only used the outer knob. I haven't figured out the display settings exactly to monitor what happens when you move this one, but I got a better tape, and every time I would adjust one channel, it would seem to make all of them level out a bit.
Show 2 was a loud drum'n'bass show, and the original "both knobs at 12" setting was way over the peak, but when looking at the file, once I brought it down to the safer -3db peak, it is really, really low.

With a freshly charged set of enloop 2000mAh batteries I scored exactly 2:38:10 which is not the safety net of the 3 hour DAT, but there is pretty much nothing I will need an external battery for If I can keep this up. There may be times when I want to just let it run and would have to swap batteries at some point but this is a good solid block of time.

The 2nd picture shows where the levels ended up, and the 3rd is the wav file.

Nice. FWIW, I always have the outer knob set at 11:00 and use the inner to manage the peaks. You're right, if you adjust the outer knobs during the music, you'll hear a pretty dramatic dip on the recording. It can be fixed in post, but it's a PITA. You can run the levels pretty high, to where it looks like they might be clipping. As long as the little box at the right of the meter doesn't fill in, you're not peaking.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on November 15, 2012, 03:09:11 PM

Please give us some details as to your mic setup and situation then we might be able to chime in on your levels. Keep in mind that you should keep the inner knobs (longer ones) at 12 o'clock. It is surprising to me that if you were peaking at -3db that it was necessary to amplify that much in post, IMO that is as 'hot' as I would ever run the R-44...

OK, so here is the 1st Run of the R44.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100747

No tests, just read a billion pages, the manual and plugged in 4 mics and went to the show.
I have a LOT of new stuff I've been experimenting with, and while I'm still not sure exactly what I want to matrix, I decided to run the R44 first with both the dpa mics (4061 & 4021). Both of them really like to have the full 48v of phantom, so that's what I did. The mics were side by side with the 4061s running Y and the 4021s running XY (I think that's the right terminology.)

The schoepsMK5 were set to card, but I really like the omni setting better, so I'm going to try that tonight. I ran them into the Apogee Mini MP with the output set on Zero, and the levels set at about 40. The MR2 ran Line-In and was set at -4db. (yes, I realize that this is an R44 thread, but it seemed relevant)

When I started the show, both inner and outer knobs were at 12 o'clock, but during the soundcheck I tried to adjust the center knobs to balance everything out. I had read here that the outer knob left artifacts if moved so I thought that a minute bit of the inner knob wiggling would be OK. You can see from the picture how it ended up after the show and more endless inner-knob wiggling. Not OK, I think.

It was still peaking at -3db for the hot parts.

The next show I left the inner knob alone and only used the outer knob. I haven't figured out the display settings exactly to monitor what happens when you move this one, but I got a better tape, and every time I would adjust one channel, it would seem to make all of them level out a bit.
Show 2 was a loud drum'n'bass show, and the original "both knobs at 12" setting was way over the peak, but when looking at the file, once I brought it down to the safer -3db peak, it is really, really low.

With a freshly charged set of enloop 2000mAh batteries I scored exactly 2:38:10 which is not the safety net of the 3 hour DAT, but there is pretty much nothing I will need an external battery for If I can keep this up. There may be times when I want to just let it run and would have to swap batteries at some point but this is a good solid block of time.

The 2nd picture shows where the levels ended up, and the 3rd is the wav file.

Nice. FWIW, I always have the outer knob set at 11:00 and use the inner to manage the peaks. You're right, if you adjust the outer knobs during the music, you'll hear a pretty dramatic dip on the recording. It can be fixed in post, but it's a PITA. You can run the levels pretty high, to where it looks like they might be clipping. As long as the little box at the right of the meter doesn't fill in, you're not peaking.

Close but not quite. If the channel names reverse colors, then you have analog clipping. If the little box on the right fills in, then you have digital clipping. Generally I leave the digital knob at 12 noon (unity) and just adjust the analog knob. There are situations where I do add some digital gain but that's mainly if I'm supplying something else through the line outs. Otherwise I deal with it in post.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on November 15, 2012, 03:32:44 PM
Good Mr cybergaloot beat me to the post on the knob thing and clipping-

Minor inner know tweakage is fine if you don't want to bother making that adjustment on the computer later.  The potential problem with setting the inner-knobs lower than 12:00 is that the levels can then appear OK on the meters when they may have already clipped.  That’s because the inner adjustment is a digital one made after the converter and the little box indicating clipping at the right end of each meter is a digital over meter.  In contrast, the outer knob adjusts analog input sensitivity before the converter.  I think there is a separate indication of analog clipping by the channel number inverting its background, but I can’t remember.  If you run the inner knob lower than noon, check that out and watch for clipping the analog input stage.

I ran 4061s and a pair of small AT cardioids (substituting for larger/heavier Gefell cards) into the R44 through Naiant PFAs for a 4 day funk festival last weekend.  I purposefully chose to take the R44 because it is near bullet-proof, simple to run and I knew it would 'just plain work' without complications even in challenging conditions.

As for mixing you might try starting with the 4061 pair, balancing that, then bringing up the X/Y 4021s until the center is clear and solid.  Or go the other way and start with the X/Y pair and bring up the omnis to make it more wide and full.  It usually works best if the omnis are spaced far enough apart with enough distance from the cardioids.  I like 4060s/4061s spaced something like 6' best if you can when combined with a center mic or pair, but 3’ or 4’ works.  If you are adventurous, consider trying what I've been doing recently- space the omnis 6' and put both cardioids in the center like before, but point one directly forward and one backwards, with 12" or so between them.  I've done that for two festivals this fall, one section taping (using the Gefells) and one FOB in the impact zone (using the smaller ATs) and that setup simply smoked it both times.  Mixed with the omnis, the front cardioid fills the center and give a nice frequency balance and forward presence, and the rear facing cardioid offers control over ambience and the amount of crowd reaction from the rear.  You sacrifice using the cards alone, but I think its worth it.  It also works really great for surround playback- ‘you are there again’.

But it does look funny.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: F.O.Bean on November 15, 2012, 03:59:20 PM
Good Mr cybergaloot beat me to the post on the knob thing and clipping-

Minor inner know tweakage is fine if you don't want to bother making that adjustment on the computer later.  The potential problem with setting the inner-knobs lower than 12:00 is that the levels can then appear OK on the meters when they may have already clipped.  That’s because the inner adjustment is a digital one made after the converter and the little box indicating clipping at the right end of each meter is a digital over meter.  In contrast, the outer knob adjusts analog input sensitivity before the converter.  I think there is a separate indication of analog clipping by the channel number inverting its background, but I can’t remember.  If you run the inner knob lower than noon, check that out and watch for clipping the analog input stage.

I ran 4061s and a pair of small AT cardioids (substituting for larger/heavier Gefell cards) into the R44 through Naiant PFAs for a 4 day funk festival last weekend.  I purposefully chose to take the R44 because it is near bullet-proof, simple to run and I knew it would 'just plain work' without complications even in challenging conditions.

As for mixing you might try starting with the 4061 pair, balancing that, then bringing up the X/Y 4021s until the center is clear and solid.  Or go the other way and start with the X/Y pair and bring up the omnis to make it more wide and full.  It usually works best if the omnis are spaced far enough apart with enough distance from the cardioids.  I like 4060s/4061s spaced something like 6' best if you can when combined with a center mic or pair, but 3’ or 4’ works.  If you are adventurous, consider trying what I've been doing recently- space the omnis 6' and put both cardioids in the center like before, but point one directly forward and one backwards, with 12" or so between them.  I've done that for two festivals this fall, one section taping (using the Gefells) and one FOB in the impact zone (using the smaller ATs) and that setup simply smoked it both times.  Mixed with the omnis, the front cardioid fills the center and give a nice frequency balance and forward presence, and the rear facing cardioid offers control over ambience and the amount of crowd reaction from the rear.  You sacrifice using the cards alone, but I think its worth it.  It also works really great for surround playback- ‘you are there again’.

But it does look funny.


Sweet. I will def remember that technique
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: bryonsos on November 15, 2012, 04:03:06 PM
Interesting. I didn't know noon was unity, and haven't seen the color change thing, you learn something every day. Having said that, my tapes sound fine to my ears using 11:00 as a setting, and I can set it and forget it in all the rooms I regularly tape in. What can I say, I'm a creature of habit.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: acidjack on November 15, 2012, 04:13:29 PM
Interesting. I didn't know noon was unity, and haven't seen the color change thing, you learn something every day. Having said that, my tapes sound fine to my ears using 11:00 as a setting, and I can set it and forget it in all the rooms I regularly tape in. What can I say, I'm a creature of habit.

I similarly find that the outer knob usually needs to be at about 11 (or lower if I'm taking an SBD feed).  What I had not known until recently was about the inner knob being digital gain and the potential issues there.  The lesson is that it's best to (a) run the levels conservatively in general and (b) really only use that knob for minimal trim.  Also, if I read this right, it's OK to use that to BOOST the signal (i.e., run it past 12 o'clock), just not reduce it, since that creates the potential clipping issue.

FWIW in probably 300+ recordings with that deck I've never had that happen. 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: hi and lo on November 15, 2012, 04:21:47 PM
Regarding the "Inner" (Trim) knob on the R-44, I would recommend never being extremely cautious when adjusting it from the default 12 o'clock position. On the R-44, this knob affects gain after the A/D stage and is applying digital gain or trim. This is problematic not so much because of the affect it might have on overall sound-quality, but because the recording level monitors will not accurate display the levels as they are before they hit the A/D stage. The levels displayed on the LCD screen are going to represent post-A/D signal levels making it entirely possible to overload the A/D, but having the level meters show a signal well below 0dB.

This is one area where I feel the DR-680 has a clear design advantage as the the entire gain range of that recorder operates in the analog domain (before the A/D).
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: hi and lo on November 15, 2012, 04:23:31 PM
...so, if I read this right, it's OK to use that to BOOST the signal (i.e., run it past 12 o'clock), just not reduce it, since that creates the potential clipping issue.


bingo
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on November 15, 2012, 04:37:26 PM
Sweet. I will def remember that technique

I just posted photos of the setup in my oddball mic techniques thread here-http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg2005010#msg2005010 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg2005010#msg2005010)  The same setup using the full-sized Microtech Gefells instead of the miniature ATs is one post above the post linked here.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: mepaca on November 15, 2012, 09:13:14 PM
The outer knob acts like an input trim knob on a mixing board. The hotter the input the lower the setting. For line level or a line level board feed
the knob should be set close to zero. For mic level it should be set closer to high noon. The outer knobs should never be moved during recording.
The inner knob acts more like a fader on a mixing board. Minute adjustments can be made there if necessary.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on November 15, 2012, 10:57:30 PM
The outer knob acts like an input trim knob on a mixing board. The hotter the input the lower the setting. For line level or a line level board feed
the knob should be set close to zero. For mic level it should be set closer to high noon. The outer knobs should never be moved during recording.
The inner knob acts more like a fader on a mixing board. Minute adjustments can be made there if necessary.

Well, that's all good and fine, but now you're just talking smack.

I'm sure you are all way more knowledgable than me, but those 2 dials (inner and outer) are all you get to adjust the levels, so I HAVE to be able to adjust ONE of them.

"Adjusting the input levels
1. Turn the Input level knob [SENS] (outer) all the way left.
2. Turn the Input level knob [LEVEL] (inner) to the center position. This position is 0 dB.
3. Hold down the [PAUSE] button and press the [REC] button.
The R-44 enters recording standby mode. During recording standby, the [REC] button blinks
and the indication alternates between REC and STANDBY.
4. Play the sound to be recorded into the microphone.
Gradually turn the Input level knob [SENS] toward the right.
Sensitivity has 11 steps of +4, -2, -8, -14, -20, -26, -32, -38, -44, -50, and -56 dBu.
* When the channel name display reverses, the input level has reached the clipping level. Set the knob
to the position just before the display reverses. "

Ack!
This is just too confusing...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: hi and lo on November 16, 2012, 10:29:54 AM

... but those 2 dials (inner and outer) are all you get to adjust the levels, so I HAVE to be able to adjust ONE of them.


Yes. Only use the outer "clicky" knob if you aren't usingan  external pre with continuously variable gain. Never use the inner knob because it's digital gain or attenuation. There's zero reason to apply digital gain in the field and if it's used to attenuate, you risk clipping before the A/D.

Just remember that when recording in 24bit, you've got a lot of headroom to work with. The clicky wheel isn't mean to dial in your levels as hot as possible, but you don't need to! Peaking anywhere from -18dB to -12dB is still going to net you a recording with better than 16bit avg bit depth.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on November 16, 2012, 10:37:26 AM

... but those 2 dials (inner and outer) are all you get to adjust the levels, so I HAVE to be able to adjust ONE of them.


Yes. Only use the outer "clicky" knob if you aren't usingan  external pre with continuously variable gain. Never use the inner knob because it's digital gain or attenuation. There's zero reason to apply digital gain in the field and if it's used to attenuate, you risk clipping before the A/D.

If you use the line outs to feed another device then you may want to use the digital gain. I have used the outputs to feed CD burners and in that case you want the signal as strong as possible so the digital gain comes in handy. Otherwise you are correct, you can deal with it in post.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on November 16, 2012, 10:40:05 AM
"Adjusting the input levels
1. Turn the Input level knob [SENS] (outer) all the way left.
2. Turn the Input level knob [LEVEL] (inner) to the center position. This position is 0 dB.
3. Hold down the [PAUSE] button and press the [REC] button.
The R-44 enters recording standby mode. During recording standby, the [REC] button blinks
and the indication alternates between REC and STANDBY.
4. Play the sound to be recorded into the microphone.
Gradually turn the Input level knob [SENS] toward the right.
Sensitivity has 11 steps of +4, -2, -8, -14, -20, -26, -32, -38, -44, -50, and -56 dBu.
* When the channel name display reverses, the input level has reached the clipping level. Set the knob
to the position just before the display reverses. "

Ack!
This is just too confusing...

Not really.  All the above says in condensed form is: "leave the inner knob at 12:00 and adjust levels using the outer knob"
You needn't make it any more complicated than that if you don't care to.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on November 16, 2012, 01:52:33 PM
OK.
So last night I created a pile of preamps, cables and recorders and trotted off to see a quiet jazz ensemble & 2 loud rock bands.
The idea was that I would feed the stereo channels as a line feed from the pres. I was hoping that I would be able to not tough either of the knobs and just adjust the levels with the preamps, but I still ended up messing with those outer knobs.

And I still ended up with levels needing to be boosted in post.

But I think I have the hang of it now. I was thinking of using 2 tinyboxes, but i am sure since they have switchable inputs i would still be fiddling with those knobs.

Here is some gear porn for you. The bag was a $2 purchase at a thrift shop that I used this summer for jon's midbox.

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on November 16, 2012, 02:01:22 PM
Just a few more before I get back to work...

The Naiant Midbox is a monster.
It may actually be too much preamp for me. The way I had it configured in the bag I barely had access to it, but it has so many outs on it that I ran a backup line to the M10.

I changed the angle of Bean's right angle interconnects and was able to get this all together, but it sure left a mess of cables on the other side of the bag.

Channels 1 & 2 were the schoeps through the apogee Mini MP, while 3 & 4 were dpa4021 through the Naiant Midbox.

It turned out like this, and when it clipped at the very beginning of the show, even after I set the levels during the soundcheck, I instinctively notched the outer (sens) knob down a click. Then of course the levels were too low.

Thanks again for all the help!

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on November 16, 2012, 02:07:21 PM
The bag was a $2 purchase at a thrift shop that I used this summer for jon's midbox.

When I hit the thrift stores I always look for bags and water tight boxes. Last time I bought an old 8mm VHS camera for $4.95 just to get the bag it came in.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: acidjack on November 16, 2012, 02:17:24 PM
Just a few more before I get back to work...

The Naiant Midbox is a monster.
It may actually be too much preamp for me. The way I had it configured in the bag I barely had access to it, but it has so many outs on it that I ran a backup line to the M10.

I changed the angle of Bean's right angle interconnects and was able to get this all together, but it sure left a mess of cables on the other side of the bag.

Channels 1 & 2 were the schoeps through the apogee Mini MP, while 3 & 4 were dpa4021 through the Naiant Midbox.

It turned out like this, and when it clipped at the very beginning of the show, even after I set the levels during the soundcheck, I instinctively notched the outer (sens) knob down a click. Then of course the levels were too low.

Thanks again for all the help!

Ahhh, my (former) sweet little DPAs  :'(  I miss them, I really do.

It's really not that hard.  I've used the -44 enough that I pretty much know what "clicky" (what I like to call the outer knob) to use... generally if it's a board I know it'll be at 9 o'clock at the highest, unless the engineer trims the output gain on the feed for me.  With mics running off of the internal pres, 11 o'clock usually works with the louder music. 

You can't adjust the clickys while recording, but usually there's an opener or at least a little soundchecking you can use.  Also, fwiw, I have (gasp!) adjusted the clickys between songs if I was running WAY too low or too hot.

If your pre is feeding in an analog signal to the -44, then you should always be adjusting on the pre and never on the -44 anyway.  With the Aerco, which has fairly hot outputs, I usually set the -44 at 9 o'clock. 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: hi and lo on November 16, 2012, 02:55:54 PM

You can't adjust the clickys while recording...


That's something I didn't know and seems like terrible design. +1 for the 680 (again!).
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on November 16, 2012, 03:05:59 PM

You can't adjust the clickys while recording...


That's something I didn't know and seems like terrible design. +1 for the 680 (again!).

HUH?  Me neither....great thread.  Thanks y'all....
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on November 16, 2012, 03:47:25 PM

You can't adjust the clickys while recording...


That's something I didn't know and seems like terrible design. +1 for the 680 (again!).

Sure you can. Its just that it is in 6db jumps, not a nice smooth curve. In a way that is nice because if you look hard enough you can find the microsecond gap that marks where the change was made and use that as the spot to make a selection in post to adjust levels. On a related note, I've heard people worry about that tiny gap. If you can hear it go by then your ears are way to sensitive.
HUH?  Me neither....great thread.  Thanks y'all....
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on November 16, 2012, 05:25:05 PM

You can't adjust the clickys while recording...


That's something I didn't know and seems like terrible design. +1 for the 680 (again!).

HUH?  Me neither....great thread.  Thanks y'all....

Spoke too soon.

Tried it out.  Walter is correct, the clickys do what they're supposed to do.

Pretty easy to work around and edit, if you have to adjust them.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: SmokinJoe on November 19, 2012, 07:03:43 PM
A couple pages back you have all this great info on the gain structure of the inner knob and outer right.  I have a new (to me) R4 Pro with the same knobs, and I managed to learn about this the hard way a couple of nights ago.  I had the outer ring at 12:00, which is kinda hot, but rather than turn it down a click on the ring, I backed it with the inner knobs.  I had the reverse video L / R on the left, but wasn't sure what it was.  When I listened to it, I can hear clipping.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: sbellon on December 26, 2012, 03:32:28 PM
Hi!

First of all, I'd like to introduce myself as I am new here.  I am an audio recording amateur recording our yearly trombone band concert for the last 10 years or so.  Over the time I have learnt a few lessons and quality of the recordings improved from year to year.  In the beginning, recording was done with the sound card of a notebook (don't laugh!), at present I'm using an Edirol UA-25 audio interface.  In the beginning, we used t.bone EM-9600 mics someone didn't need anymore, until I found a pair of Sennheiser MD 421 in perfect condition forgotten in one of my father's cupboards.  Switching to them again gave a great quality boost.

While this setup now works pretty well for most recordings, there are some recordings where I have strange repeating noise patterns in the recording and I cannot figure out the reason.  I always use the same settings on the UA-25 and on the notebook.  I have the suspicion that something like processor throttling or some other cpu power-saving modes may be the reason for very short timeouts or something like that.

I'd like to do another upgrade and get rid of the notebook in the recording chain in order to minimize potential errors.  Reading a lot through the forums I'm leaning towards the Roland R-44.  I've read through the relevant threads and think I understand its pros and cons.

There is one thing that got me puzzled:  Consensus here is to leave the inner knob of the sens/level controls at noon position (because it controls volume in the digital domain) and just use the outer ring adjusting the input gain in analog domain by 6 dB steps.  On the Oade Brothers' web site (who have a high reputation here as well for their mods) however I read:

Quote
How do I set levels on my recorder?

Edirol R44 and R4Pro: Basically you want to use as little preamp gain (this is how much the preamp amplifies or increases the signal from the microphone) as possible. So you start with the smaller, inner knob, it's the one closest to you, set at about 2:00 to 3:00, then adjust the outer knob, it moves in 6 dB steps and displays on the LCD readout, until your signal level is around -12dB on the meter. You then tweak the level with the inner knob, it's okay to have it set to max and that is better than moving it toward 12:00 and adding 6 dB of gain with the stepped input trim knob. I like to target between -12dB and -6dB for peak levels when I'm recording, that way when I'm surprised, it does not overload and distort. It's a good idea to use the limiter as you learn. The limiter is a circuit that can momentarily reduce your signal level so the sound does not distort as the digital recorder runs out of bits. A digital over sounds bad and should be avoided. The key is you get the lowest noise and distortion when the outer knob ( that works in 6dB steps) is set as low as possible while still providing a good signal level. Both the outer knob that adjust the input gain in 6dB steps and the inner knob that is continuously variable and allows you to fine tune the signal level are digitally controlled analog gain stages. I strongly suggest you not set the inner knob to 12:00 and add gain in post, this compromises the quality of your recordings. This simple rule, using as little preamp gain as possible, will allow you to make the very best recording possible with your gear.

(Quote from http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/faq-general.html#C10)

Those instructions seem to be in contradiction to the general consensus here in the forums.  Can somebody please explain why their recommendation is that contrary?

TIA.

Greetings,
Stefan
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on December 27, 2012, 02:21:45 PM
Welcome to the forum.  The R-44 is a great machine and would do the job quite nicely, but given your description it may be more of a recorder than you actually need.  If you are recording 2 microphones only, there are other less costly machines that don't have the capability to record 4 channels simultaneously and will do just as well.  If using a pair of Senn 421s (which are dynamic mics that do not require powering) you don't need a recorder which provides +48V phantom power either, but it would be a good option to have if you want to use condensor mics at some point.

The short story is simply this: Don't set the innner knobs to a position to the left of 12:00 or you can clip the input stage without visibly peaking the meter (however, as Joe mentioned, the channel number or letter indicator on the display will invert whenever the analog input stage clips, even if the inner knob is set to a position where the bar meters do not reach 0dBFS).

You can set the inner knob to positions to the right of (clockwise from) 12:00 without adversely affecting your recording, however, contrary to what is printed on the Oade site I'm not convinced it is advantageous to do so for anything other than correcting for minor channel imbalances.


The technical story-
Both sets of gain knobs are 'digital controls' in the sense that their input affect digitally programable gain array chips.  The outer knobs 'digitally adjust' the gain provided by the analog input circuitry before the signal reaches the Analog-to-Digital-Converter chip.  That is the stage where optimizing the gain setting is important for best performance.  The inner knob adjusts the gain after the signal has been digitized.  Adjusting the inner knob is functionally the same as adjusting the signal level of the file with software on the computer at a later point in time. 

The bar meters reflect the level of the already digitized signal- If the inner knob is left at 12:00 the bar meters will more or less accurately reflect the level of the signal being digitized, and tell you how close to cliping the signal is.   If set higher or lower the bar meters it will not be an accurate reflection of analog signal strength reaching the ADC, but the levels in the digitized files being written to the memory card.

Below is the block diagram of the circuitry.  The outer knobs control sensitivity, the inner knob level.  Look at the position of those controls in the circuit with regards to the analog-to-digital conversion stage, which is marked A/D, and this may make more sense.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on December 27, 2012, 05:58:10 PM
I've yet to hear a frequently-encountered real-world use case for the inner, smooth, knob.  And it's a grave omission that there is no way to ensure that it's not modifying the recording at any given time - the set value of the outer ring is shown on the display, but the inner ring has no centre detent nor display, so you can only hope that you've got it in exactly in the right place so that it doesn't (albeit very slightly) perform a digital gain or reduce as you record.  They should have provided a push-to-disable function for it.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: runonce on December 27, 2012, 11:26:42 PM


While this setup now works pretty well for most recordings, there are some recordings where I have strange repeating noise patterns in the recording and I cannot figure out the reason

Cell phone might be the most likely culprit.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: sbellon on December 28, 2012, 04:17:48 AM
First of all, thanks for your quick replies and your valuable input.

@Gutbucket: Thanks for your nice summary. That's exactly the information that I gathered by reading all the R-44 threads here as well. But it still does not explain why the Oade brothers suggest moving the inner level knob rather to the 2 or 3 o'clock or even max position than to noon. And regarding "more than you actually need": I'm a big believer of having more available than one currently thinks one needs (applies to computers and cars as well), because at some point the need for more arises and having it available then is not a bad thing.

@Ozpeter: Might this be the reason for the Oade brother's suggestion: Because you cannot exactly center the inner level knob at 12 o'clock and because you rather want to be a bit on the right side than on the left, you might as well choose to put it more to the right side. As long as you're not clipping, this is better than to have it a bit on the left side by accident?

@runonce: No, it's not cellphones. It occurs all the way, not just now and then. It sounds more like a disc is spinning irregularly and touches something on each round. But as no spinning elements are involved in the recording chain it must be something different. Perhaps a video recorder mounted nearby the microphones? Either that or the notebook is failing to maintain the data stream. Anyway, that's why I want to get rid of the notebook in the recording chain.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on January 01, 2013, 07:58:32 PM
That kind of noise usually comes from the notebook power supply, particularly if it's earthed.  Disconnecting the earth lead can help - BUT that has safety implications of course, and it may not be readily achieved anyway.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on January 03, 2013, 03:52:55 PM
Color me confused...

Why is it a problem to turn the inner knobs lower (to the left) of twelve o' clock? here is my situation: I use 3/4 solely to pull a sbd feed. I have had one of the shure attenuators fail on me, so i run the xlrs straight in from the board. the outer knobs on the r44 are turned all the way to the left, but I still was afraid, with the inners at twelve, that I didn't have enough headroom. So I turned the innerspring down, and obviously, the levels went down. I guess I am confused as to why using the injera to attenuate the signal is a bad thing, assuming the signal with the inners at twelve is not clipped... Also why would it be better to be adding the gain by turning the injera past twelve (right) rather than at 0db which is the twelve o'clock setting...

Thx.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on January 03, 2013, 04:45:50 PM
Because turning the inner knob down from 12:00 doesn't increase input headroom.  The input circuitry will clip at the same signal level with it set at 9:00, 12:00, or 3:00.  It only affects the signal level after the signal is digitized.

Here's a quick test to help illustrate things:
Start with both inner and outer knobs at 12:00.  Increase input sensitivity (outer knob) until the meters show peaking when you clap loudly.  You should see both the bar-meter peaking and illuminating the 'peak' rectangle on the right of the meter, AND the input channel indicator flipping its illumination from dark background with illuminated lettering to illuminated background with dark lettering indicating 'analog input stage clipping'.  If you keep the input sensitivity (outerknob) in the same position and adjust level (innerknob) while clapping at the same loudness level as before, you will see a resulting change in the position of the bar meter, but the input channel indicator will still invert as each clap peaks in input circuitry.  Turn the inner knob down and the analog stage will clip before the digital stage.  Turn it up and the bar meter (representing the digitized signal) will clip before the analog stage.

I can't imagine any reason to ever turn level (inner knob) below 12.  As for positions above 12:00 and Oade's recommendation, it's speculation on my part, but I suppose the noise of the analog input stage may be greater at higher input sensitivity settings relative to the level of signal which could be apparent when recording very quiet sources which need a lot of gain.  If that is the case, then using 'just enough' analog gain to get the signal high enough above noise floor, then adding digital gain with the inner knob (which is the same thing as amplifying digitally on the computer later), may result in a higher signal-to-noise ratio. It is something that a competent tech with measurement gear like Doug Oade would discover when checking out the recorder’s true specifications. But besides being speculative on my part, that assumes a scenario which isn't common with concert recording and also complicates things by making the meters harder to understand clearly.  IME keeping the inner knobs at 12:00 except for accommodating minor gain imbalances between channels things is both simpler and without negative consequences.

I am using an Oade Concert Modd’ed R-44, which supposedly has lower analog input stage noise than a stock model, so maybe I’d hear a difference if I was using the stock version and less sensitive mics such as dynamics, but I’ve never noticed problems with excessive input stage noise, even with relatively quiet sources and typical condenser taper mics.

Does that help?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on January 03, 2013, 05:06:45 PM
Ok. So if i understand correctly, turning the inner knob down will lower the levels, but will not prevent clipping.

turning the outer knob all the way to the left last night gave me an absolute peak of ~ -14db. so even though turning the inside knob down past twelve oclock can lower levels doing so does not do anything more to actually prevent clipping. in fact,  if i understand this, the only thing I can do to prevent clipping is to turn the outer knobs all the way left (to the +4 sensitivity setting)...

This has no bearing on the digital 1/2 results, right..?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on January 03, 2013, 11:09:28 PM
You've got it.

..and yes, it doesn't affect the S/PDIF input.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: DLpres on January 30, 2013, 03:35:31 PM
Hi, I got our R44 recently and signed up to Taperssection just to join in on this great thread. Our use for the R44 is (almost) exclusively in filmmaking/video recording. Like many other R44-film users we would've went for a Sound Devices 744T or 664 if it wasn't for their pesky $4,500 price tag. In comparison, the R44 delivers a ton of bang for the buck. Sync drift against our video camera is a respectable <50ms/hour.

My pet peeve is that the device doesn't monitor in "stop" mode. To hear the incoming audio you have to go into record standby. I've never seen this before in the kind of equipment we use. It means extra button presses after every take, accidental rolls, and because standby mode leaves the REC lamp blinking there's the risk of getting confused at 2AM and not rolling on a take. I was astonished that there wasn't a menu setting to change this behavior (I'm on v1.10). Had I seen this in pre-purchase research it would've affected our choice, but no one seems to have mentioned it. Am I the only who finds this troublesome?
As for the level knobs being digital and not analog... at least there's consencus on that :-) I agree it's a pointless design decision and a royal PITA. I favored the R44 over the Tascam because of the 4 dedicated trim/level pots and this kind of negates the benefit.

One constructive point: my power solution was to utilize our 14.4V video camera batteries (Sony PMW-EX1). I found a cheap battery plate made by Ikan Corp., carefully reversed its polarity (10 minutes with a solder iron), and voila - 7.5 hours of continuous recording time on one small BP-U30 battery. Granted those batteries may be too pricey if you don't already own them, but it's a smart solution for certain video camera owners. It's unfortunate that most lower-end video camera batteries are 7.2V and would therefore require an expensive step-up transformer.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on January 30, 2013, 03:37:05 PM
normally i use my R-44 with the record setting on "Stereo x1 or "Stereo x2" depending on whether i'm runing 2 mics or 4.  a few weeks ago for the first time i used the setting that sends each channel to its own file on the SD card.  about 20 minutes into the set i got an error message saying that the SD card is too slow.  the message did not stop the recording and everything looked to be fine.  in between sets i switch back to the "Stereo x2" mode and i never saw the error message again.  when i got home and listened to the recording the 1st set was all chopped up with huge gaps, but the recording was continuous in the sense that there was no silence.  the 2nd set sounds fine.

i was using a class 10 SD card and have never received this error message until using the setting for recording each track to an individual file.  since that episode i have exclusively used either "Stereo x1" or "Stereo x2" and have had no issues.  can anyone shed some light on why that recording mode would create a challenge for a class 10 card?

thanks in advance.   
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on January 30, 2013, 04:16:48 PM
Class 10 in itself is way more than fast enough, even class 4 is sufficient.  Your particular class 10 card is compromised.  Not all makes of them work well.  It appears yours is sufficient for writing stereox2 but not monox4 files.  I'd switch cards even if it works in stereox2 mode.

I've had similar problems with sketchy cards in the past. I changed cards and the problem disappeared.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on January 30, 2013, 04:22:19 PM
Class 10 in itself is way more than fast enough, even class 4 is sufficient.  Your particular class 10 card is compromised.  Not all makes of them work well.  It appears yours is sufficient for writing stereox2 but not monox4 files.  I'd switch cards even if it works in stereox2 mode.

I've had similar problems with sketchy cards in the past. I changed cards and the problem disappeared.

Agreed completely.  I record exclusively in the "Mono x4" mode on my R-44 and have never (ever) run into the "SD card is too slow" message, even with class 4 cards.  What brand of card are you using?  SanDisk are generally excellent but they are also widely counterfeited so you have to make sure you're buying them from a reputable dealer.  FWIW, I've also had reliable results using PNY and Kingston SD cards in my R-44.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on January 30, 2013, 06:41:05 PM
Class 10 in itself is way more than fast enough, even class 4 is sufficient.  Your particular class 10 card is compromised.  Not all makes of them work well.  It appears yours is sufficient for writing stereox2 but not monox4 files.  I'd switch cards even if it works in stereox2 mode.

I've had similar problems with sketchy cards in the past. I changed cards and the problem disappeared.

Agreed completely.  I record exclusively in the "Mono x4" mode on my R-44 and have never (ever) run into the "SD card is too slow" message, even with class 4 cards.  What brand of card are you using?  SanDisk are generally excellent but they are also widely counterfeited so you have to make sure you're buying them from a reputable dealer.  FWIW, I've also had reliable results using PNY and Kingston SD cards in my R-44.

It's a Patriot LX series class 10 32gb card.  if it's just the card then i'm not worried.  it totally works fine (and always has) in "Stereo x2" mode.  i just assumed that it would also be fine in "Mono x4" mode.

does the "Mono x4" mode place more demand on the SD card compared to "Stereo x2"?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on January 30, 2013, 08:38:03 PM
  I record exclusively in the "Mono x4" mode on my R-44

may i ask why you do this..?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on January 30, 2013, 09:13:03 PM
^^  I forgot to preface with "When I record 4 channels..."  For me, I find it more flexible and easier to process in post with 4 mono channels as opposed to 2 sets of stereo recordings.  And with the 2GB file size limit on the R-44, I've never had to append two files together due to a split when recording in mono.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on January 31, 2013, 12:44:44 PM
^^  I forgot to preface with "When I record 4 channels..."  For me, I find it more flexible and easier to process in post with 4 mono channels as opposed to 2 sets of stereo recordings.  And with the 2GB file size limit on the R-44, I've never had to append two files together due to a split when recording in mono.

Actually its not the R-44 imposing the 2GB file size limit, it is the Fat32 file format that the R-44 uses. Nitpicky I know. I've rarely had a show run long enough that the recorder had to start a new file but when it does I haven't had a problem appending the files. What audio editor are you using? It does leave a very tiny gap between the two files but I can't actually hear it. I've heard some folks claim they could but I highly doubt it.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on January 31, 2013, 01:24:34 PM
I think that appending leaving a gap depends on the audio editor. when you use samplitudenyou can line them up exactly. if you don't, you can hear it. I use wave editor now, and when you open them up as consecutive layers, the program lines em up perfectly and you don't hear it.

never thought of the mono setting so that the track size wouldn't be an issue-I always have split files because I run 24/96. I guess odd channels would be left and even channels would be right..?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on January 31, 2013, 01:36:29 PM
I think that appending leaving a gap depends on the audio editor. when you use samplitudenyou can line them up exactly. if you don't, you can hear it. I use wave editor now, and when you open them up as consecutive layers, the program lines em up perfectly and you don't hear it.

I got confused. You are right, no gap. I was thinking about the gaps that are created when you switch the analog gain up or down while recording. I actually find that handy!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on January 31, 2013, 03:14:29 PM
never thought of the mono setting so that the track size wouldn't be an issue-I always have split files because I run 24/96. I guess odd channels would be left and even channels would be right..?

Each mono file contains half as much data as an equal length 2-channel stereo interleaved file, so you can record twice as long before the 2GB auto-split happens. That could be especially useful at 24/96 to avoid the split and make for easier file management.

When writing mono files, you'll get files on the SD card labled 1.wav, 2.wav, 3.wav. 4.wav, corresponding to the channel input number. Left or right simply depends on which mic you plug into which input.  You could plug the Left mic into either channel 1 or channel 2 and it will write to 1.wav or 2.wav.  You can assign or pan each channel in you editing software however you want.  In that way its not like writing 2channel-interleaved files where channels 1&3 are always left and 2&4 always right in the resulting 2-channel files.

With mono files, only situation in which the odd channel inputs are always routed left and even numbered channels to right is monitoring or playing back directly from the machine through the stereo-mixed RCA output, the digital output or the headphone jack.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on May 26, 2013, 11:05:54 AM
does anyone use the Oade method for setting levels on their R-44?  when i first got my R-44 i followed the advice of others on this forum to leave the middle knob at 12 Noon and everything has worked out fine.  but Doug seems to have a different approach.   

"Edirol R44 and R4Pro: Basically you want to use as little preamp gain (this is how much the preamp amplifies or increases the signal from the microphone) as possible. So you start with the smaller, inner knob, it's the one closest to you, set at about 2:00 to 3:00, then adjust the outer knob, it moves in 6 dB steps and displays on the LCD readout, until your signal level is around -12dB on the meter. You then tweak the level with the inner knob, it's okay to have it set to max and that is better than moving it toward 12:00 and adding 6 dB of gain with the stepped input trim knob. I like to target between -12dB and -6dB for peak levels when I'm recording, that way when I'm surprised, it does not overload and distort. It's a good idea to use the limiter as you learn. The limiter is a circuit that can momentarily reduce your signal level so the sound does not distort as the digital recorder runs out of bits. A digital over sounds bad and should be avoided. The key is you get the lowest noise and distortion when the outer knob ( that works in 6dB steps) is set as low as possible while still providing a good signal level. Both the outer knob that adjust the input gain in 6dB steps and the inner knob that is continuously variable and allows you to fine tune the signal level are digitally controlled analog gain stages. I strongly suggest you not set the inner knob to 12:00 and add gain in post, this compromises the quality of your recordings. This simple rule, using as little preamp gain as possible, will allow you to make the very best recording possible with your gear."
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: sbellon on May 26, 2013, 12:53:50 PM
See reply #77 and following.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 26, 2013, 06:47:56 PM
I realise the bizarre Oade advice (which is so wide of the mark that you wonder about the rest of their claims about the audio quality of their modifications) has been discussed to death before, but one sentence struck me as even more bizarre than the rest -

"The key is you get the lowest noise and distortion when the outer knob ( that works in 6dB steps) is set as low as possible while still providing a good signal level."

Taken one way, it's essentially meaningless - obviously you set the preamp gain to provide a "good signal level" and that's bound to be as low as possible - otherwise it would be too high - or, taken another way, it's claiming that preamp gain should be set low to minimise noise, whereas all preamps that I know of have their noise measured at max gain, where signal to noise ratio is most favourable.  As you add gain, yes, you add noise, but you add more signal than you add noise.

All in all, it smacks of ignorance of matters which someone tinkering with the innards of these devices should not be ignorant of.

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: hi and lo on May 27, 2013, 10:41:32 AM
does anyone use the Oade method for setting levels on their R-44?  when i first got my R-44 i followed the advice of others on this forum to leave the middle knob at 12 Noon and everything has worked out fine.  but Doug seems to have a different approach.   

"Edirol R44 and R4Pro: Basically you want to use as little preamp gain (this is how much the preamp amplifies or increases the signal from the microphone) as possible. So you start with the smaller, inner knob, it's the one closest to you, set at about 2:00 to 3:00, then adjust the outer knob, it moves in 6 dB steps and displays on the LCD readout, until your signal level is around -12dB on the meter. You then tweak the level with the inner knob, it's okay to have it set to max and that is better than moving it toward 12:00 and adding 6 dB of gain with the stepped input trim knob. I like to target between -12dB and -6dB for peak levels when I'm recording, that way when I'm surprised, it does not overload and distort. It's a good idea to use the limiter as you learn. The limiter is a circuit that can momentarily reduce your signal level so the sound does not distort as the digital recorder runs out of bits. A digital over sounds bad and should be avoided. The key is you get the lowest noise and distortion when the outer knob ( that works in 6dB steps) is set as low as possible while still providing a good signal level. Both the outer knob that adjust the input gain in 6dB steps and the inner knob that is continuously variable and allows you to fine tune the signal level are digitally controlled analog gain stages. I strongly suggest you not set the inner knob to 12:00 and add gain in post, this compromises the quality of your recordings. This simple rule, using as little preamp gain as possible, will allow you to make the very best recording possible with your gear."

Interesting, albeit a bit odd. Minus the first sentence, it's basically the long way of saying "you want your levels as close to 0 without going over." What's really interesting is the part about the inner gain know.

According to this post (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/818121-block-diagram-wrong-manuel-roland-r-44-a.html) on Gearslutz, Doug claims there is a mistake in the R-44 block diagram and that the "inner" gain knob is not actually digital gain (after the A/D), but rather digitally controlled analog gain.

Quote
I thought it may be of interest to others that I spoke to Doug Oade at Oade Brothers Audio today. He does modifications to portable recorders, upgrading the mic pres and other things. Anyway, he told me that there is a great deal of false information about the Roland R-44 because of an incorrect block diagram in the owners manual. He said the level knobs are NOT after the A/D converter as in the diagram; they are completely in the analogue stage of the signal chain. He also said that you get a legitimate line input as in a high end mixer. He speaks very highly of this portable recorder, even saying that when you take off the top and look at the electronics it looks like a work of art compared to most other portable recorders. I thought some people may be interested to know this as there have been some posts on this forum about this subject.

If that's the truth, then I would agree that it is better to run the inner knob at max gain rather than the 12:00 position, but I wouldn't take this as gospel w/o additional verification.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 27, 2013, 08:59:21 PM
Quote
According to this post on Gearslutz, Doug claims there is a mistake in the R-44 block diagram and that the "inner" gain knob is not actually digital gain (after the A/D), but rather digitally controlled analog gain.
  That's been totally disproved by every (other) owner of the device.  Sorry, but he doesn't know what he's talking about.  We've gone over and over this before.  But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how it works - what we do know is that using this inner control at other than the 12 o'clock setting is liable to mess up your recording.  Don't risk it.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 27, 2013, 09:27:25 PM
Relevant other discussions about use of the inner knob are at

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/418534-edirol-r44-sensitivity-vs-level.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/761420-roland-r-88-a.html

In the latter one I make the point that the R88 has a block diagram showing the same structure as on the R44 - and that I'd be surprised if they got it wrong twice.  I also point out that the inner knob can be locked to the noon position on the R88 and the knob used for another purpose - which implies that it's actually not much use.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: hi and lo on May 27, 2013, 10:08:56 PM
Quote
According to this post on Gearslutz, Doug claims there is a mistake in the R-44 block diagram and that the "inner" gain knob is not actually digital gain (after the A/D), but rather digitally controlled analog gain.
  That's been totally disproved by every (other) owner of the device.  Sorry, but he doesn't know what he's talking about.  We've gone over and over this before.  But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how it works - what we do know is that using this inner control at other than the 12 o'clock setting is liable to mess up your recording.  Don't risk it.

You should email Doug then and correct him. I'm sure he'd appreciated that.

This isn't a guilty until proven innocent situation, but I don't see anything in those threads that even remotely qualifies as definitive proof. Can you point me to the post where the specific diagnostic tests were explained? Which poster opened up their unit to verify? I must have missed both. I'm not backing up Doug's claims, but all I see in those threads are general speculation by end-users quoting the manual.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 27, 2013, 10:37:03 PM
Given that the unit behaves as if the block diagram is correct, and given that Edirol have published the same block diagram in two iterations of this class of device, and that only one person on the planet (as far as I know) is responsible for any assertion to the contrary, then I see no reason to challenge the block diagram.

Edit - of course there's also the fact than other (not all) digital recorders work that way too.

I forget now whether (in all the pages of discussion here and elsewhere) anyone has explored the nature of the distortion arising from overloading the recording using the outer knob, vs overloading using the inner knob, but I guess it might be quicker for me to do that than to try to find the answer by a search.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: hi and lo on May 27, 2013, 11:04:39 PM
..given that Edirol have published the same block diagram in two iterations of this class of device, and that only one person on the planet (as far as I know) is responsible for any assertion to the contrary, then I see no reason to challenge the block diagram.


Correct, however you asserted that there was overwhelming proof Doug was wrong, as though someone had rigorously tested the hypothesis and confirmed it to be valid or invalid. I didn't see any tests, let alone definitive proof either way, just end-user discussion and anecdotal evidence. It's not unheard of for published documentation to be wrong and go uncorrected.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 28, 2013, 01:20:34 AM
The Edirol R44 threads go back a long way, and it's not that easy to search for precisely what one is looking for.  So in the interests of nailing this discussion of the function of the inner knob once and for all, for the current generation of readers, here's some links which I think will be persuasive.

First -

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107018.msg1621904.html#msg1621904

This shows that when the inner knob is all the way down, you get digital silence.  That in itself seems to me to be persuasive - you'd expect at least some bits to be non-zero if this was an analog domain control.  Also, as you increase the setting of this control, signal and noise increase virtually identically, which is what you'd expect from digital amplification (but not analog amplification).

This post also shows that as the "clicky" outer gain control is raised, signal to noise ratio improves (as you would expect of any mic preamp), and that when you increase from the position marked -14 to that marked -20, you get more than 12dB of gain but with 5dB less noise.   This indicates that using higher gain with the outer knob provides the best signal to noise ratio.

Posts following that one did not dispute my findings.

Second -

Back in May 2008 I had this email from Roland Australia in response to some questions I'd sent them, which they forwarded to their R&D people in Japan.  As usual with an email, where their reply quotes my questions, my quoted questions are indicated by ">".

"Hi Peter,

Got this response from Japan R&D:-

Dear David-san,

The block diagram describes only basic concept so that the customer does
not get confused.

 > First, the manual says that the limiter operates in the analogue domain, 
> but the block diagram shows it operating in the digital domain.  In use, 
> it seems to overcome preamp overloading, which would mean that it must 
> be an analogue limiter - which is good - but clarification would be 
> useful.

The R-44's limiter is analog and digital mixed like the R-4Pro. When you
turn on the limiter, analog gain goes automatically -12dB down for
prevention of digital distortion and after that passes through the
digital limiter. After that the signal level goes +12dB back up
again for matching total signal level.

*The limiter threshold is -10 dB relative to digital full scale.

 > Second, the block diagram shows the continuously variable level controls 
> (the inner knob, not the stepped sensitivity control) operating in the 
> digital domain.  The manual text doesn't seem to say whether that's true 
> or whether the level is actually analogue domain. Again, it would be 
> useful to be sure of how it works.

SENS knob ( outer knob ) is analog domain. ( stepped )
LEVEL knob ( inter knob ) is digital domain. ( continuous )

<About suggestion>
The R&D guy said that they appreciate for sending the suggestion.

It is impossible to be mounted the R-44 due to hardware and software
limitation.

But it is helpful to develop next generation product.
Please say our regards to the customer!



Hope that all helps.

Kind regards,
David Lackey "

(The "<About suggestion>" concerned some suggestions I made for improving the product, not relevant to this post.  Note also, outside the current topic, that using the limiter is pointless if the recording is going through a post-production stage later - just record at a lower level and use a finely-tuned limiter in your DAW to obtain the best, undo-able, result.)

So - we have very convincing tests undertaken (more than once actually) by myself, coupled with categorical statements made by Roland R&D Japan, vs statements attributed to Oade which, when you think them through at any level do not make sense (eg the assertion that lowering the first stage of a two-stage amplification system and raising the level of the following stage is likely to result in an overall improvement of signal to noise), and which certainly do not correspond with the opinions of the vast majority of other users based on extensive experience, nor with the known behaviour of this device. 

I reiterate that Oade are being reported as making incorrect statements about this device (causing end user confusion, not to mention wasting my time in refuting them) and this does nothing to enhance their reputation with me (for what that's worth) - as for others, well, up to you to draw your own conclusions.

If Oade are being misquoted, or quoted out of context, I'm sure this thread would be a good place to set the matter straight.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 28, 2013, 08:10:29 PM
I have emailed Mr Oade about this matter and his initial brief response indicates that he does not understand my point.  I have written again setting out as clearly as I can how his advice is demonstrably incorrect, and hopefully he will amend it.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on May 31, 2013, 05:50:43 PM
I have emailed Mr Oade about this matter and his initial brief response indicates that he does not understand my point.  I have written again setting out as clearly as I can how his advice is demonstrably incorrect, and hopefully he will amend it.

did you receive a follow-up response from Doug?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on June 01, 2013, 04:41:09 AM
No.  But maybe it will take him a while to reproduce my test results - if, that is, he cares to.

I pointed out to him that the signal to noise ratio of the preamp improves at higher settings of the outer knob, and that setting the inner knob has no effect on signal to noise ratio (whether it operates in the digital domain or not, it behaves in all respects as if it does, which is what matters).  Therefore setting the outer knob low and the inner knob high (as he advises) demonstrably records with a reduced signal to noise ratio.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Elana on June 04, 2013, 04:42:24 PM
I'm sure these have both been asked and answered but finding info in these threads is tough. 

If AA batteries are put in the R-44 and the external batt fails, will it gracefully fall back on the internal AA's w/o causing a problem to the recording?

I've heard you can get about 40mins off of AA's w/ phantom on (2 channels maybe?) - is this correct?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on June 04, 2013, 04:46:11 PM
I'm sure these have both been asked and answered but finding info in these threads is tough. 

If AA batteries are put in the R-44 and the external batt fails, will it gracefully fall back on the internal AA's w/o causing a problem to the recording?

I've heard you can get about 40mins off of AA's w/ phantom on (2 channels maybe?) - is this correct?

Yes, it will fail over to the internals. You should get quite a bit more than 40min on internals even with phantom on.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Elana on June 04, 2013, 05:11:24 PM
I'm sure these have both been asked and answered but finding info in these threads is tough. 

If AA batteries are put in the R-44 and the external batt fails, will it gracefully fall back on the internal AA's w/o causing a problem to the recording?

I've heard you can get about 40mins off of AA's w/ phantom on (2 channels maybe?) - is this correct?

Yes, it will fail over to the internals. You should get quite a bit more than 40min on internals even with phantom on.

Thanks.  Are there any benchmarks of how much time can be gotten on internal AA's with phantom on 2 inputs?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on June 04, 2013, 05:26:11 PM
I'm sure these have both been asked and answered but finding info in these threads is tough. 

If AA batteries are put in the R-44 and the external batt fails, will it gracefully fall back on the internal AA's w/o causing a problem to the recording?

I've heard you can get about 40mins off of AA's w/ phantom on (2 channels maybe?) - is this correct?

Yes, it will fail over to the internals. You should get quite a bit more than 40min on internals even with phantom on.

Thanks.  Are there any benchmarks of how much time can be gotten on internal AA's with phantom on 2 inputs?

Somewhere here on Taper's Section there are the times some folks got but it will depend somewhat on what mics you have and what batteries you use. Some mics use more power than others and it makes a difference whether you use rechargable batteries or regular alkaline. Hopefully somebody will chime in who has a better feel for how long you can run but personally I've run over 1 1/2 hours with all four channels running phantom off the internal batteries. In my case it was an accident so I don't know how long it would have kept on going.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on June 04, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
I'm sure these have both been asked and answered but finding info in these threads is tough. 

If AA batteries are put in the R-44 and the external batt fails, will it gracefully fall back on the internal AA's w/o causing a problem to the recording?

I've heard you can get about 40mins off of AA's w/ phantom on (2 channels maybe?) - is this correct?

Yes, it will fail over to the internals. You should get quite a bit more than 40min on internals even with phantom on.

Thanks.  Are there any benchmarks of how much time can be gotten on internal AA's with phantom on 2 inputs?

Somewhere here on Taper's Section there are the times some folks got but it will depend somewhat on what mics you have and what batteries you use. Some mics use more power than others and it makes a difference whether you use rechargable batteries or regular alkaline. Hopefully somebody will chime in who has a better feel for how long you can run but personally I've run over 1 1/2 hours with all four channels running phantom off the internal batteries. In my case it was an accident so I don't know how long it would have kept on going.

same here
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Elana on June 04, 2013, 10:12:04 PM
I'm sure these have both been asked and answered but finding info in these threads is tough. 

If AA batteries are put in the R-44 and the external batt fails, will it gracefully fall back on the internal AA's w/o causing a problem to the recording?

I've heard you can get about 40mins off of AA's w/ phantom on (2 channels maybe?) - is this correct?

Yes, it will fail over to the internals. You should get quite a bit more than 40min on internals even with phantom on.

Thanks.  Are there any benchmarks of how much time can be gotten on internal AA's with phantom on 2 inputs?

Somewhere here on Taper's Section there are the times some folks got but it will depend somewhat on what mics you have and what batteries you use. Some mics use more power than others and it makes a difference whether you use rechargable batteries or regular alkaline. Hopefully somebody will chime in who has a better feel for how long you can run but personally I've run over 1 1/2 hours with all four channels running phantom off the internal batteries. In my case it was an accident so I don't know how long it would have kept on going.

same here

Thanks - good to know.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 21, 2013, 10:49:56 AM
Does anyone know if the R-44 will clock to a SPDIF input stream while recording 4 analog inputs and not actually set to record the digital input?

I was running it along with a DR-680 last night and it would have been nice to have the clocks of both recorders synced.  In the past I  have done it the other way around- sync'ing the DR-680 clock to the digital output of the R44.  In that case I don't need to actually record the digital input on the DR-680 to have it lock to the output of the R-44.  However, this time I was running the V3's SPDIF digital into the DR-680, so I only had the 680's digital out available for linking to the R-44.. and I needed all 4 analog inputs on the R44.

I hooked it up that way before the show as a quick test, and there was no indication on the R-44 either way.  I assume it simply ignores the digital input in that case, but maybe not.

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: kirk97132 on June 21, 2013, 12:29:02 PM
Does anyone know if the R-44 will clock to a SPDIF input stream while recording 4 analog inputs and not actually set to record the digital input?

I was running it along with a DR-680 last night and it would have been nice to have the clocks of both recorders synced.  In the past I  have done it the other way around- sync'ing the DR-680 clock to the digital output of the R44.  In that case I don't need to actually record the digital input on the DR-680 to have it lock to the output of the R-44.  However, this time I was running the V3's SPDIF digital into the DR-680, so I only had the 680's digital out available for linking to the R-44.. and I needed all 4 analog inputs on the R44.

I hooked it up that way before the show as a quick test, and there was no indication on the R-44 either way.  I assume it simply ignores the digital input in that case, but maybe not.
R-44 DOES NOT sync to spdif when recording analog.  Only the HD-P2 or DR- 680 when set that way or a USBPre-2 will do it by default. 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 21, 2013, 12:39:07 PM
Thanks Kirk!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on June 21, 2013, 02:39:34 PM
Does anyone know if the R-44 will clock to a SPDIF input stream while recording 4 analog inputs and not actually set to record the digital input?

I was running it along with a DR-680 last night and it would have been nice to have the clocks of both recorders synced.  In the past I  have done it the other way around- sync'ing the DR-680 clock to the digital output of the R44.  In that case I don't need to actually record the digital input on the DR-680 to have it lock to the output of the R-44.  However, this time I was running the V3's SPDIF digital into the DR-680, so I only had the 680's digital out available for linking to the R-44.. and I needed all 4 analog inputs on the R44.

I hooked it up that way before the show as a quick test, and there was no indication on the R-44 either way.  I assume it simply ignores the digital input in that case, but maybe not.
R-44 DOES NOT sync to spdif when recording analog.  Only the HD-P2 or DR- 680 when set that way or a USBPre-2 will do it by default.

I have not tried any other configuration than master R-44 digi-in 24/48 from my mini-me on 1 and 2, analog mics with phantom on 3 and 4, and analog line in from the soundboard on 1 and 2 on the slave R-44.

I sync the R-44's every time.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 21, 2013, 03:23:41 PM
..analog line in from the soundboard on 1 and 2 on the slave R-44.

Thanks Kevin.  What I was trying to do would be similar to recording analog in on ch's 3&4 of the slaved machine as well as ch's 1&2, yet retaining the clock sync to the digital input (although without the slaved transport functions).
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on June 21, 2013, 07:45:16 PM
acidjack and I have clock synced our R-44's many times to run 8 separate analog channels.  But, as Kirk pointed out, we used a USBPre2 as the way to sync the two decks via SPDIF.  I believe he has also been able to clock sync an R-44 and DR-680 the same way but only he can answer that.  Paging acidjack...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 21, 2013, 08:00:49 PM
We answered the question. It was wishful thinking on my part, as I suspected.  Would be nice if it did though.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on July 02, 2013, 01:39:56 AM
i ran the mono x2 mode last night, and it is great as for no splits, and keeping stuff straight...

only thing is i use wave editor on the mac, and for the life of me, i cant find a way to load those mono files and designate them as left and right. does anybody here have any ideas..? i appreciate any help on this - i figure it should be a very easy and seemless process, requiring very light lifting, but i just cant figure how to do it. thanks, in advance. (fwiw, i have also posted this query in the wave editor thread here)...

Edit:

Above issue resolved; solution details start here (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=151527.msg2047241#msg2047241)...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jbell on August 09, 2013, 08:16:12 PM
Can you designate what channels run to the digital coax out if you are running a V3 into the digital coax in??
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on August 09, 2013, 08:40:12 PM
When I run digi-in, it routes to channels 1 and 2. If I run digi+analog, it routes analog in to channels 3 + 4. The digital seems to always be channels 1 and 2...

Hth
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jbell on August 09, 2013, 08:55:32 PM
So if digi in is channels 1/2 and SBD 3/4 can you route the 3/4 signal to the digi out??

When I run digi-in, it routes to channels 1 and 2. If I run digi+analog, it routes analog in to channels 3 + 4. The digital seems to always be channels 1 and 2...

Hth
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on August 09, 2013, 09:04:32 PM
Oh, I have no idea. I have never sent anything out of the digi out. I misunderstood what you were asking. Sorry to waste your time...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 09, 2013, 09:46:52 PM
So if digi in is channels 1/2 and SBD 3/4 can you route the 3/4 signal to the digi out??

Hmm, can't remember when recording.  To route 3/4 only to the digi-out on playback, you set output select in the system setup menu to mix, or monitor or whatever the mixed channel output mode is called, then press the display button to select the channel playback gain screen, turn ch1&2 down to 0 and 3&4 up to 100.

You might try pushing monitor select (the headphone gain knob) until it selects ch's 3/4 only.  Try it with output select set alternate ways- switched between individual channel outputs and mix (or monitor or whatever it is).
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on August 10, 2013, 02:36:51 AM
Recording 4x1 for the first time tonight. What is going on with the timer. It seems to only get up to a half hour before it sets to zero. I assume the recording will be fine... Just wondering why it behaves like that. I would think with 4x mono that the recording timer would go longer, like it does with mono x2
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 10, 2013, 03:01:37 AM
Are you recording one 4 channel file, instead of four 1 channel files, and hitting the 2GB split at ~30min?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on August 10, 2013, 03:23:49 AM
Guess I will will find out. It splits every half hour...

4chx1 I think is what it said. I assume I can split the file up in a wave editor and manipulate the channels as I need to...

It was the only other option other than monox2 and monox1 and stereo x2...

What should I have chosen..? I use mono x2 to get 1 and 2 to be left and right...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 10, 2013, 01:33:53 PM
monoX1=one mono file
monoX2=two mono files
monoX3=three mono files
monoX4=four mono files <choose this one to get individual files numbered 1-4, same record time as monoX2
stereoX1=one stereo files
stereoX2=two stereo files
4chX1=one four channel file < 1/4 the recording time of monoX4 before hitting the 2GB split

You can usually split the four channel file in an editor.  I use this small free standalone app-SoundDevices Wave Manager (http://www.sounddevices.com/products/waveagent/key-features/).  Which has an input output matrix function which can be used to split multichannel files into individual channel WAV files, combine mono files into stereo files, rearrange their numeric order in the file, etc.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on August 10, 2013, 03:27:44 PM
Cool. If I can't get it to work right in wave editor, I will do that...

The r44 manual day of digital input is there, which it is with my setup, you cannot do monox4, just 2xstereo...

Or the 4chx1.

I think this will work fine. Thanks for the help. How do I get that sound devices program for the Mac..?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 10, 2013, 03:32:48 PM
That makes sense. With a digital input I think I've only run it in stereox2.

You enter an email address on the download page and they auto-email you a link to the installer. I use it on Windows machines, but they also have a Mac version.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on August 10, 2013, 03:55:38 PM
Awesome. Thanks. I will look for the download page later...

Don't need it - wave editor opens the file and allows me to do what I need to do.

I am glad this worked because monox4 will NOT work because two of my channels are digital...

Again, gb, thanks (as always) for all of your input and assistance. +t

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on September 18, 2013, 12:52:18 PM
Here's a change of subject.

Until a week ago, I would have said the R-44 was the best deck I ever owned.
Suddenly, after 30 or more recordings, I started getting the "card too slow, press any key" error.
I did a lot of reading about it. It seems that the R-44 doesn't support too many cards.
But I've never had the problem before. It was easy enough to reformat the card. (16GB Transcend Class 10, I think, but I have 3 different cards I've used and never seen this error. Sandisk 32GB Class 4 & Kingston 16GB Class 10)
It was just before the show and I was running for 10 minutes, and saw the error. Had JUST enough time to reformat and roll again.

But 5 minutes into the music, the error happens again. THis time I pressed any key and it went away.
I figured that was it, but nope: even though the error message never returned, the tape has all kinds of skips throughout. Fucking Ruined.

So I tried all my other cards and the same error persists. I can press any key, like it says, but while it makes the error go away, it also makes a recording with skips throughout.

What's the solution?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 19, 2013, 01:13:17 PM
I started having similar SDHC card issues last year, which cleared up after cleaning the card socket contacts with Caig Deoxit.  I just put some on the contacts of a card and did the plug-in/plug-out dance a few times.  No issues since.

Currently my power button is acting up.  Sort of flickers when held down an the unit doesn't power up.  I have to press it for a while firmly and until it finally boots.  Hoping it's just dirty switch contacts and that a squirt will clear it up, but haven't done it yet.  Any one else have similar power button issues?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on September 19, 2013, 05:27:03 PM
Thanks!

I will try the Caig Deoxit solution.
Look a $20 fix, that's a good deal.

Everything else has worked great for almost 100 tapes. (er, recordings)

One thing I've never understood is the folder date thing.
I've tried various naming systems on the machine, and i like the one that goes like this:

130715202722.pjt

7/15/2013 8:27:22pm, right?

So it makes a folder for each recording like that, but every folder I copy to my mac says it was created on Oct 4, 2004, which makes it slightly weird when organizing folders filled with audio files.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on September 19, 2013, 05:32:36 PM

130715202722.pjt

7/15/2013 8:27:22pm, right?


Yeahyouright about the date and time.

That DeOxit stuff works well, too.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 19, 2013, 05:33:42 PM
130715202722.pjt

7/15/2013 8:27:22pm, right?

Right, which means the time/date on the R-44 is set correctly.  That's the naming scheme I prefer as well.

Quote
So it makes a folder for each recording like that, but every folder I copy to my mac says it was created on Oct 4, 2004, which makes it slightly weird when organizing folders filled with audio files.

Is the clock on your mac set to Oct4, 2004?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: JusTapin on September 19, 2013, 05:50:03 PM

So it makes a folder for each recording like that, but every folder I copy to my mac says it was created on Oct 4, 2004, which makes it slightly weird when organizing folders filled with audio files.

Mine does the same thing when I plug the card into my macbook, it states the file was last modified Oct 4, 2004 for all files...drives me nuts! lol  It doesn't do it on a Windows platform.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on September 19, 2013, 06:23:36 PM
Here's a change of subject.

Until a week ago, I would have said the R-44 was the best deck I ever owned.
Suddenly, after 30 or more recordings, I started getting the "card too slow, press any key" error.
I did a lot of reading about it. It seems that the R-44 doesn't support too many cards.
But I've never had the problem before. It was easy enough to reformat the card. (16GB Transcend Class 10, I think, but I have 3 different cards I've used and never seen this error. Sandisk 32GB Class 4 & Kingston 16GB Class 10)
It was just before the show and I was running for 10 minutes, and saw the error. Had JUST enough time to reformat and roll again.

But 5 minutes into the music, the error happens again. THis time I pressed any key and it went away.
I figured that was it, but nope: even though the error message never returned, the tape has all kinds of skips throughout. Fucking Ruined.

So I tried all my other cards and the same error persists. I can press any key, like it says, but while it makes the error go away, it also makes a recording with skips throughout.

What's the solution?

i encountered this "card too slow" error once when using the R-44 in MONOx4 mode.  i changed the card, went back to STEREOx1 or STEREOx2 and have never received the error since.  i attributed the error to the card, but to this day i still don't know for sure since i've neve used MONOx4 again.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 19, 2013, 06:30:45 PM
Yeah, that one sounds like a throughput problem with the card.  It takes a bit more overhead to write 4 seperate mono files instead of two stereo interleaved ones.  I switch between using STEREOx2 and MONOx4 on the R44 regularly without problems.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on September 21, 2013, 04:30:31 PM
This is as close as I came to the Caig deOxit: LPS LVC electric contact cleaner. It seems similar, and all the directions are in Spanish.

Whatcha think? just risk it?


Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 21, 2013, 06:41:30 PM
Should work.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on September 23, 2013, 01:56:45 PM
Unfortunately...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on September 23, 2013, 02:00:09 PM
Now is it possible that my card(s) are actually too slow?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 23, 2013, 03:01:40 PM
I'd retire the card if your others are working okay.  If they all have the same problem, that points to the deck or the cardslot.  Maybe borrow and try a couple alternate cards.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on September 23, 2013, 05:24:47 PM
I may have fixed it!
But there is one card that still gives errors.

Here is a good question, though:

There are 4 RCA outs on the R-44.
Do they act only during playback or could I run them to 2 other backup decks and use the R-44 as sort of a preamp?
Or would any card errors just go on through to the backup decks?

Just a thought.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tgakidis on September 23, 2013, 05:33:43 PM
I may have fixed it!
But there is one card that still gives errors.

Here is a good question, though:

There are 4 RCA outs on the R-44.
Do they act only during playback or could I run them to 2 other backup decks and use the R-44 as sort of a preamp?
Or would any card errors just go on through to the backup decks?

Just a thought.

It should be a pass through regardless of the card error.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 23, 2013, 05:58:33 PM
Pretty sure the RCA's outs are active while recording, their function determined by the menu setting (direct individual channels, or whatever stereo monitor mix config is determined via pushing the headphone gain knob).  If I recall correctly I think I patched out all four channels from the RCAs on mine directly into another R44 that way last spring.  At least we talked about doing that, can't remember if we actually ended up doing something else.

Not sure if the RCA output would hickup/mute with a card slow error.  If the headphone jack remains active, then I'd expect the RCA outs to as well.  You'd need to test that with your known 'slow card' to be certain, but if I had to bet I'd bet with Ted.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on September 24, 2013, 02:10:30 PM
Thanks guys.
Invaluable again, as usual.
Out for 3 nights of solid 6 hours in NYC staring tonight, so lets hope for the best!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: melvis1645 on September 26, 2013, 08:15:36 PM
I just picked up a r44 and have a couple of questions. If I am running 2 sets of mics I would want it on analog correct? Also what is best stereo x1, mono x4, etc. Finally with 2 sets of mics would I need 2 pre amps if all I have are 2 channel pres or is the built in pre good enough for one with say a niant bigbox on the other? As always thanks in advance.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 27, 2013, 03:52:48 PM
I just picked up a r44 and have a couple of questions. If I am running 2 sets of mics I would want it on analog correct?
Yes
Quote
what is best stereo x1, mono x4, etc.
Recording two mic pairs I'd suggest stereo x2
Quote
Finally with 2 sets of mics would I need 2 pre amps if all I have are 2 channel pres or is the built in pre good enough for one with say a niant bigbox on the other?
That's a subjective question to which you're are likely to get different answers depending on who you ask.  You certainly don't need external preamps but might prefer them. Plenty of people are perfectly content with the stock internal preamps. My R44 is Oade Concert modded and I don't feel any need for external preamps.  I've never used one with stock preamps.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: melvis1645 on September 27, 2013, 07:35:58 PM
I have 2 sets of naks so I might do a test stereo x2 with naks>bigbox>r44 and naks>r44 to get an idea of how the unmodded r44 pre sounds. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: F.O.Bean on September 27, 2013, 08:39:18 PM
Also, if he ran 4xMono, he could get around the 4gb limit if running 24/96, correct ??? I know I read that somewhere recently here on ts.com, but Im not sure if every 4 channel recorder is like that ???

Back for RAQ NYE 2007, I used an SD 744 PLUS my SD 722. I ran 4xMono on the SD 744 because thats what I was told to do. I only ran 24/48 if my memory is correct, which is very questionable :P ;) The 4 channels on the 744 were SBD[2 channels] and MBHO Hypers[2 channels], and all I did when I got home was use SD's Wave Agent program and then made the recordings 2xstereo channels :) Duno why but thats what Ned told me to do with his 744, and it worked like a charm. Im sure ANYONE could record 4xMono on ANY 4 channel deck and then use SD's Wave Agent program to re-do the channels :)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on September 29, 2013, 11:21:37 PM
You can't do 4x mono if running digi in. You can do the 1x4ch. This splits every half hour at 2496.

I think the best format to use depends on your work flow. The 1x4 works best for me when recording 4channels, and when i record 2ch i do 2xmono.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 30, 2013, 03:40:27 PM
There is no clear cut answer to which is best.  Personally, I'm always recording 4 channels with this recorder and I find myself switching between using stereo x 2 and mono x 4.

A practical advantage of stereo x 2 is that it writes two interleaved stereo WAV files, one for each channel pair, and those files may be listened in stereo directly with most any WAV capable software or hardware media player.  To listen to mono files in stereo you must load them into editing software or combine them into an interleaved stereo file with something like WaveAgent first.

Plus, since we are most often dealing in stereo pairs, for file management and quick listening to the raw files I find it useful to have one stereo file for the AUD mics and another for the SBD, or whatever the pairings are.

However, writing individual mono files doubles the record time between 2GB file splilts which might be useful.  The time at which that split occurs is determined by the record sample rate and bit depth.

1x4ch keeps all the channels together in one file, which I suppose may be useful.  I never used that one myself as it files splits too frequently while recording and I can't play the raw files easily without loading DAW software.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on December 16, 2013, 10:33:05 PM
New to the team. Bought a used r-44 off the YS which came with an 8GB card. Looking ahead to festival season where I will be running SBD+AUD I'm obviously going to need a few more cards.

Looking for suggestions on 32GB or 64GB cards that play nice with the r-44.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on December 16, 2013, 11:22:47 PM
class 10
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on December 17, 2013, 12:16:32 AM
class 10

Any in particular? Or does any class 10 do the job in the R-44 regardless of size?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on December 17, 2013, 12:17:44 AM
class 10

Can't speak for 32gb, but I've used 16gb cards as low as class 4 (Sandisk, PNY, Kingston) in my R-44 running 4 channel mono without a single hiccup.  Agreed that the higher the class/speed, the better (it certainly doesn't hurt to have the fastest cards you can afford) but digital audio recording isn't quite as finicky as digital video.  YMMV, etc.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: bombdiggity on December 17, 2013, 09:54:35 AM
class 10

Any in particular? Or does any class 10 do the job in the R-44 regardless of size?

Well make sure you're getting a genuine card (i.e., buy it direct from an authorized retailer).  At least half of what's out there (of any sort of card) is counterfeit. 

I've pretty much stuck with Sandisk but there are several solid brands.  I do have two HP thumb drives that both crapped out (the only ones I have that stopped working, so if they made cards I wouldn't buy them).  I don't think the class is all that important either as long as its not an ancient or phony card. 

I've used everything from 4 GB to 32 GB.  I don't think I have any 64 GB cards (yet?).  I'm sort of in favor of not putting a whole day on one card if I can swap them out periodically (just for piece of mind in the off chance of an epic fail). 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on December 17, 2013, 10:05:29 AM
I like 32GB cards.  Faster is nice for x-fer speed, but doesn't matter for recording IME.
I have a number of Transcends and Kensingtons, all of which have worked well.

The R-44 isn't particularly picky about cards and doesn't need special formatting, file stuctures, or system files on the card.

I do put an entire day on a card at fests, using a fresh card for each day.  I've never had a problem doing that, and it makes management easy, but I keep a spare card in the bag, just in case.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on December 17, 2013, 11:46:49 AM
I've run class 2 cards with no problems (@ 2X stereo). Other than one card claiming it was full when it wasn't, I have had no card issues with the R-44.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on December 17, 2013, 01:07:49 PM
Well make sure you're getting a genuine card (i.e., buy it direct from an authorized retailer).  At least half of what's out there (of any sort of card) is counterfeit. 

I don't think the class is all that important either as long as its not an ancient or phony card.

This.  As long as you're using a reputable, genuine SD card, I imagine you won't have a problem.  I honestly didn't realize the counterfeit rates are that high but what do I know?  From my own experience and anecdotal evidence from others, the R-44 can successfully use just about any good card you throw at it.  Awesome deck.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on December 17, 2013, 04:34:21 PM
class 10

Any in particular? Or does any class 10 do the job in the R-44 regardless of size?

Had some class 4 cards that gave me the slow memory error, and had gaps in the recording.

Ditched them for Sandisk class 10's and never had another problem.

Yes, YMMV, but 'your mileage will increase' with class 10 cards, and they are cheap nowadays.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on December 17, 2013, 04:53:34 PM
Thank you kindly, folks.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: bombdiggity on December 17, 2013, 05:25:28 PM
Oh while not saying it is certain to cause a problem the usual caveats apply:

Format the cards you're using in the unit.
Don't delete files from the cards elsewhere and reuse without first formatting them in the unit. 

As noted above it's quite tolerant but those two things may have caused issues for others in the past.  I once accidentally used one of my R-05 formatted cards in the R-44 without formatting and it was fine but it caused a bit of heartburn when I put the recording in the PC and noticed what I'd done...   
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on December 17, 2013, 09:36:42 PM
Yeah, I know the drill. I also have a 722 and an M-10 and I always format in the recorders.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on December 18, 2013, 08:59:20 AM
class 10

Any in particular? Or does any class 10 do the job in the R-44 regardless of size?

Had some class 4 cards that gave me the slow memory error, and had gaps in the recording.

Ditched them for Sandisk class 10's and never had another problem.

Yes, YMMV, but 'your mileage will increase' with class 10 cards, and they are cheap nowadays.

And there ya go! You are so right, cards are cheap now. Might as well get good ones.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on December 30, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
So I can be lazy and not have to search...

What is the right power setting for plugging in a DVD battery to use as the primary power source and leaving the AAs in as your backup source?
Is it 9v?

I think that's right...

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on December 31, 2013, 12:31:56 AM
So I can be lazy and not have to search...

What is the right power setting for plugging in a DVD battery to use as the primary power source and leaving the AAs in as your backup source?
Is it 9v?

I think that's right...

Most folks use 9V DC but there is a fairly wide range it can take. What it can't take is the wrong polarity. Be ABSOLUTELY sure you have the polarity right or you will kill the external power port.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on December 31, 2013, 01:09:19 AM
Thanks!
I have myself a brand new gak cable just for the job.

On my mr1, you could feed it more than 9v, but I wasn't sure about the r44 and needed to be sure. I'm going to have to set it and forget it for 5 hours tomorrow so I was just checking expert opinions!

jb
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on December 31, 2013, 12:46:59 PM
It runs well on 9V from an external supply.

So I can be lazy and not have to search...

What is the right power setting for plugging in a DVD battery to use as the primary power source and leaving the AAs in as your backup source?
Is it 9v?

I think that's right...

If you mean the external battery voltage cutoff setting on the R44's menu, most users including myself set that to External (or AC or whatever the setting is labeled for an external adapter) and then use the built-in meter on the DVD battery itself to monitor state of charge instead of the battery meter on the R44 display.  The R44 will switch to the internal AA's if the external is unplugged or dies and at that point the icon on the R44 display will switch from a little electrical plug to the battery meter bars.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on December 31, 2013, 05:16:46 PM
I can't check now, but iirc, isn't it set to something lower..? Like 9v if running a 12v battery..? I remember some deal where when I initially set it intuitively (which would have been accurate to math the battery rating), I got warning messages and a shut down (I think, 'cos I didn't have aa batts in) because as soon as the voltage dips below what you set it at, the warnings start. The setting, again, iirc, is to set a level below which the warning pops, NOT to set it to accept a certain amount of power...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cashandkerouac on December 31, 2013, 09:01:15 PM
Thanks!
I have myself a brand new gak cable just for the job.

On my mr1, you could feed it more than 9v, but I wasn't sure about the r44 and needed to be sure. I'm going to have to set it and forget it for 5 hours tomorrow so I was just checking expert opinions!

jb

the R-44 also works well if powered with 12v.  9v or 12v, your choice.  both work without issue.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: dmonkey on December 31, 2013, 10:53:49 PM
Thanks!
I have myself a brand new gak cable just for the job.

On my mr1, you could feed it more than 9v, but I wasn't sure about the r44 and needed to be sure. I'm going to have to set it and forget it for 5 hours tomorrow so I was just checking expert opinions!

jb

the R-44 also works well if powered with 12v.  9v or 12v, your choice.  both work without issue.

The R-44 loves all. It's very warm and embracing.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on January 01, 2014, 01:12:22 PM
It runs well on 9V from an external supply.

If you mean the external battery voltage cutoff setting on the R44's menu, most users including myself set that to External (or AC or whatever the setting is labeled for an external adapter) and then use the built-in meter on the DVD battery itself to monitor state of charge instead of the battery meter on the R44 display.  The R44 will switch to the internal AA's if the external is unplugged or dies and at that point the icon on the R44 display will switch from a little electrical plug to the battery meter bars.

This.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on January 03, 2014, 09:50:02 AM
I can't check now, but iirc, isn't it set to something lower..? Like 9v if running a 12v battery..? I remember some deal where when I initially set it intuitively (which would have been accurate to math the battery rating), I got warning messages and a shut down (I think, 'cos I didn't have aa batts in) because as soon as the voltage dips below what you set it at, the warnings start. The setting, again, iirc, is to set a level below which the warning pops, NOT to set it to accept a certain amount of power...

Yes.  If you were using a 12VDC SLA or something, you could set the recorder to start giving warnings and then shut-down as the external supply voltage drops below the chosen setting.  That would also let you use the battery meter on the recorder.  But for that function to work, the nominal working voltage of the battery needs to be higher than the cut-off setting on the R44. 

That doesn't work with a 9VDC DVA battery, because you can not set the external battery supply cut-off voltage on the R44 menu to a value of less than 9V.  In that case there is no 'working voltage range' between the fully charged output of the battery and the recorder's shut-off setting so the recorder will immediatey (or very quickly) start giving warnings and shutting down.   Setting the R44 menu to 'adapter' (or whatever the setting is labled that turns off the low-voltage shut down function) prevents that from happening so that's how everyone uses it with 9V DVD batteries.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on January 03, 2014, 09:57:17 AM
^

Thx for clearing that up...

+t
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: waltmon on January 16, 2014, 04:51:05 PM
Hey guys...I'm seriously considering picking up the Oade Modded R-44 in the yardsale.   Any comments as to the R-44 performance compared to the Tascam 680 other than the obvious extra channels?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on January 16, 2014, 05:33:27 PM
I have and use both (OCM R44, stock DR-680) and consider them pretty much interchangeable in regards to sound quality if that's what you mean.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: waltmon on January 16, 2014, 06:47:56 PM
how about in regards to difficulty of menu navigation
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on January 17, 2014, 02:18:57 AM
R-44 is faster and simpler.  A taper who never used it before could make it go immediately, and figure out settings pretty quickly.  Gain setting is simpler with individual physical knobs.
 
DR-680 is not difficult and is simple once learned, with more recording control options, but is a bit more complicated control-wise and card file system-wise.  It has more physical switches on it to be concerned with.  Gain setting can be linked to adjust multiple channels simultaneously in sync with each other.


If playback from the machine matters-
R-44 has individual channel out gains and EQ or compressors available, individual outs or 2 buss out, but 2 buss is always 1,3>L / 2,4>R hard panned.

DR-680 has a 2 buss mixer with individual channel gains & pans or individual channel outs, but no EQ, and no individual channel out gains.

Both have adjustable M/S decoding.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: waltmon on January 17, 2014, 08:28:12 AM
That's awesome info...thank you.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: lynchie on February 10, 2014, 09:28:36 PM
I'm onboard with team R44. good score on Ebay.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on February 12, 2014, 10:49:12 AM
I'm onboard with team R44. good score on Ebay.
welcome to the team! Great recorder, IMO.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: sbellon on February 22, 2014, 06:02:31 AM
Has anyone done the upgrade to firmware 1.2.1 and any impressions to share?

I'm especially interested in the "Auto Sens" functionality. Is it useful?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 22, 2014, 07:19:40 AM
Hmmm, when did that update become available?  It's a new one on me.  I'll give it a try tomorrow.

From the updated manual -

31 Recording
Automatically Detecting the Optimal Input level (Auto Sens)
Here's how to automatically detect the optimal input level
for the audio that is currently being input,
and display that value.

* The display will show the recommended setting at which the maximum level
of the sound that was input duringdetection will be about -6 dBu.
1.
Press the[MENU] button
.
2.
Use the cursor buttons [] []
to choose 6 Auto Sens, and press the [ENTER] button. Automatic detection will begin.

3.Into the mics, produce the sound that you intend to record.
* At least four seconds of detection is required after you press the
[ENTER] button
.
4. Press the[STOP] button to end automatic detection.
The display will indicate each channel's recommended
sensitivity level (SENS RECOMMEND) and the current
setting (CURRENT).

5.Use the input level knobs [SENS] (outer ring)
to adjust the current value (CURRENT) so that it matches
the recommended value (SENS RECOMMEND).

* If you press the [EXIT] button to end auto sense without adjusting
the knobs, the settings will not be applied.

6.If you then press [DISP], the display will show each
channel's recommended level (LEVEL RECOMMEND)
and the current value (CURRENT).

7. Use the input level knobs [LEVEL] (inner ring) to
adjust the current value (CURRENT) so that it matches
the recommended value (LEVEL RECOMMEND

I note that the block diagram in this revised manual clearly shows the inner knob is after the A/D stage, as they've always shown it.  Why Mr Oade insists on it being otherwise I have no idea.  If it was an error in the diagram, they've had years to correct it now.  The manual also clearly states that signal to noise ratio is affected by the outer knob, not the inner one (which is digital gain and therefore applies to both signal and noise passed from the analog stages).
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: sbellon on February 22, 2014, 07:37:27 AM
Hmmm, when did that update become available?  It's a new one on me.  I'll give it a try tomorrow.

The firmware binary is dated 2013-08-27, the update instructions and the changelog are dated 2013-09-17.

I note that the block diagram in this revised manual clearly shows the inner knob is after the A/D stage, as they've always shown it.  Why Mr Oade insists on it being otherwise I have no idea.  If it was an error in the diagram, they've had years to correct it now.  The manual also clearly states that signal to noise ratio is affected by the outer knob, not the inner one (which is digital gain and therefore applies to both signal and noise passed from the analog stages).

It may very well be that changing that diagram would be too much effort (in contrast to the gain), so that they keep it knowing that it is inaccurate. Just speculation, though.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 22, 2014, 03:27:59 PM
Quote
It may very well be that changing that diagram would be too much effort (in contrast to the gain), so that they keep it knowing that it is inaccurate.
Or, the diagram is correct, and every user and tester of the R-44 is correct, except for one...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on February 24, 2014, 11:27:10 AM
4. Press the[STOP] button to end automatic detection.
The display will indicate each channel's recommended
sensitivity level (SENS RECOMMEND) and the current
setting (CURRENT).

5.Use the input level knobs [SENS] (outer ring)
to adjust the current value (CURRENT) so that it matches
the recommended value (SENS RECOMMEND).

* If you press the [EXIT] button to end auto sense without adjusting
the knobs, the settings will not be applied.

6.If you then press [DISP], the display will show each
channel's recommended level (LEVEL RECOMMEND)
and the current value (CURRENT).

7. Use the input level knobs [LEVEL] (inner ring) to
adjust the current value (CURRENT) so that it matches
the recommended value (LEVEL RECOMMEND)

Hmmm.  Interesting that AUTO SENS appears to recommend both a sensitivity setting AND a level setting.  I'd figured it would just recommend sensitivity.. why a level setting (digital trim) too I wonder?

R88 has a channel ganging feature for linked-channel gain changes as well as stereo monitor mix panning, I'd love to see those things in an R44 firmware update.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 26, 2014, 06:35:47 AM
Roland have always suggested using the inner and the outer knobs, on the presumption (I suppose) that the user wants the levels maximised at the outset without resorting to using digital gain in post production.  (And of course they have to justify having both knobs provided on the device!) Hopefully most users of this device are inherently of the kind of person who will be aware of the downsides of applying digital gain during recording.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on February 26, 2014, 12:26:21 PM
Roland have always suggested using the inner and the outer knobs, on the presumption (I suppose) that the user wants the levels maximised at the outset without resorting to using digital gain in post production.  (And of course they have to justify having both knobs provided on the device!) Hopefully most users of this device are inherently of the kind of person who will be aware of the downsides of applying digital gain during recording.

I have had occasion to use the digital gain when I was feeding two CD burners from the outputs of the R-44 (sbd & aud) and needed the levels to be higher. Otherwise, no, I wouldn't use it. And since I have AC when running the CD burner, I now use an 8 channel preamp and feed both the burner and R-44 from it.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: DSatz on June 26, 2014, 11:00:34 PM
I've used a stock R44 as my main deck for a number of years now. In all that time it has been 100% solid and reliable with digital and/or analog inputs. My only serious criticism of it was the tiny level meters.

Tonight I downloaded and installed the latest firmware update. It includes a "zoom" function for the main level meters, which completely answers my past criticism. Now when I press the "DISP" button (the thin vertical one to the left of the STOP button), the level indicators for the four channels widen to cover the entire meter face as shown in the attached photo.

Very-low-level indications such as -48 and -36 dBFS go away in that mode, but they're still available from the default display.

--By the way, the simplest way to apply the update is to copy the "r44_update" folder from the ZIP file onto the memory card via reader, rather than via USB cable hooked up to the recorder. Then put the memory card back into the recorder, and power it up as specified in the instructions. The actual update takes less than a minute.

--best regards
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on June 27, 2014, 12:06:26 AM
I've used a stock R44 as my main deck for a number of years now. In all that time it has been 100% solid and reliable with digital and/or analog inputs. My only serious criticism of it was the tiny level meters.

Tonight I downloaded and installed the latest firmware update. It includes a "zoom" function for the main level meters, which completely answers my past criticism. Now when I press the "DISP" button (the thin vertical one to the left of the STOP button), the level indicators for the four channels widen to cover the entire meter face as shown in the attached photo.

Very-low-level indications such as -48 and -36 dBFS go away in that mode, but they're still available from the default display.

--By the way, the simplest way to apply the update is to copy the "r44_update" folder from the ZIP file onto the memory card via reader, rather than via USB cable hooked up to the recorder. Then put the memory card back into the recorder, and power it up as specified in the instructions. The actual update takes less than a minute.

--best regards

Sweet! I'll be updating firmware pronto...

+T
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: mysticeyes on June 27, 2014, 08:09:25 AM
Thank you for the info, DSatz! I had no idea that there was an update.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: mysticeyes on June 27, 2014, 08:36:22 AM
I want to take this opportunity to say this once again - if I haven't said it often enough before - that my R-44 has been totally, undubitably, extremely rock solid and dependable, and that the only thing that I wish it had is at least one more channel.  :) ;D :D
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ultfris101 on June 27, 2014, 02:45:56 PM
Cool. this thing is so reliable I never even think about checking the firmware updates. Here are notes on changes if anybody is curious:


From: http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=downloads&p=R-44&id=1812303

R-44 System Program (Ver.1.21)

This system program updates the R-44 system program to the latest version 1.21.

Products:R-44
How to know the version
Before you start, check the system program version of your R-44.

    Turn R-44 power off.
    Hold down [DISP] and [↓](Down Cursor Button) and press [POWER] to switch on the power.
    Continue holding down [DISP] and [↓] until the version is displayed.

And then check the version of [MAIN] on the display of your R-44. After checking the version, press [POWER] to switch off the power.
* Version 1.20 or later does not require this update.
* You can update from any versions.

Update history
[Version 1.21]
[Additional Functions]
Please refer to the "R-44 Owner's Manual" for detailed information.

    Automatic setting of input senses (Auto Sens)
    The optimal input level for the audio that is currently being input is automatically detected and the set value is displayed.
    Playlist Function
    A project is played in order of a playlist in an SD memory card.
    Meter Zoom
    The level meters can be displayed in a magnified view.

[Version 1.10]
[BUG FIX]

    On Windows 7, MacOS X v10.6 or later, R-44 cannot communicate with a computer via USB after it wakes up from sleep state.

[CHANGE]

    Changed the start-up screen of R-44.

[Version 1.05]
[IMPROVEMENT]

    Got compatible with the latest BWF(Broadcast Wave Format) as much as possible while keeping compatibility with previously recorded files.

[BUG FIX]

    At "MS Mic" Effect, wide control on ch.3 - ch.4 is unable and it causes no sound input for the ch.4.
    No effect on Pre-Rec part of the sound.
    Shutdown operation takes time such as 30sec when the SD card was locked.

[Version 1.03]
[IMPROVEMENT]

    Compatibility improved with .WAV files made by LOGIC from Apple.
    Got compatible with 4-ch surround or WaveFormatExtensible files made by applications such as SONAR from Cakewalk.
    Shorter gap between recording start timing of two units in synchronized recording by the units linked each other through CTRL-SYNC connectors.

[BUG FIX]

    Issues of compatibility with SD Cards.
    Counter digits might jump back for few seconds within few seconds of recording which is Pre-Rec activated.
    Signals might be easily distorted especially by negative values set at the Graphic EQ.
    Incorrect frequency response by negative values set at MID of "3 Band EQ" in 88.2/96kHz sampling rate modes.

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: T-90 on June 27, 2014, 07:42:40 PM
^ same here....and I am always concerned with firmware updates but this has been out for a while now and I really like the view on the level meter so....
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on June 27, 2014, 08:02:03 PM
I upgraded the firmware from 1.x>1.21 when I got the deck used late last year. Didn't realize this level view was available. :facepalm:

Can't wait to try the "new" meter view out in the field...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: DSatz on July 13, 2014, 01:46:13 PM
The one quibble that have about this is that the "DISP" button is right next to the STOP button. So I am verrrrrrrry careful about pressing it during a recording.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on July 13, 2014, 01:53:32 PM
Have we tested if the hold switch affects the disp button..? I know the hold switch prevents an accidental stop, but I don't know if it disables the disp button, too
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on July 14, 2014, 12:17:37 AM
No you can't switch the DISP button while on hold. I'd like to see that function be available when on hold...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on July 14, 2014, 02:12:34 PM
The one quibble that have about this is that the "DISP" button is right next to the STOP button. So I am verrrrrrrry careful about pressing it during a recording.

I have the same quibble with the "HOLD" switch on the R-44 being right next to the phantom power switch for channel 1.  Learned the hard way once that you should not accidentally switch off phantom power on any channel while you're recording.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on July 16, 2014, 01:24:43 AM
The one quibble that have about this is that the "DISP" button is right next to the STOP button. So I am verrrrrrrry careful about pressing it during a recording.

I have the same quibble with the "HOLD" switch on the R-44 being right next to the phantom power switch for channel 1.  Learned the hard way once that you should not accidentally switch off phantom power on any channel while you're recording.  :facepalm:

I'm running AUD mics digi-in via a V3 and accepting line-level SBD feed via channels 3+4. I cover the p48 switches with tape so I can't make that mistake and accidentally back-feed p48 to the boards I'm patched in to...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on July 16, 2014, 12:11:27 PM
When I bought the unit from oade, I asked him to snip the buttons. I can still trigger with a toothpick if I need phantom, but I never use it, as I always do digi-in for ones and two and sbd if available for three and four. Consequently, I can reach in the bag blind and feel for the only switch and know it is hold, and switch it with confidence....
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 16, 2014, 12:45:54 PM
At least these switches on the R-44 are relatively flush and can't be easily switched by accident.  Protruding phantom switches like on the DR-680 can be accidentally switched much more easily.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on July 29, 2014, 02:47:27 PM
Here's an R-44 question I cannot seem to work out. Poured through the manual. Looked through the threads...

I have a 2x stereo recordings: 4 channels. I like them both. I can play any of the 4 channels back through the machine, even the stereo mix combining the 2 left and 2 right channels, but only through the headphone monitor jack.

WHen it comes to "on the fly" mixing of the channels together, is there a way to get that to happen through the digital outs and then just play the file to another stereo recorder, thus making a fast mixdown of 4>2 channels in true 24/96?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: hi and lo on July 29, 2014, 02:54:57 PM
The digital output mix will be the same as whatever you are sending to the headphone jack, so yes, it's entirely possible to do what you're suggesting. The only draw back to using the digital out is that you can no longer toggle the channels fed to headphone out for monitoring purposes (unless of course you're ok with the change in mix channels on the 2nd recorder.).
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on July 29, 2014, 04:34:16 PM
so... anyone have a link to the firmware update procedure?    ;D

i can't find it.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 29, 2014, 04:42:06 PM
I've done that jb63, here's a bit more detail on what hi and low posted-

If doing it on playback from the R44, you'll get individual output level control over each of the 4 channels.   If doing it 'live' while recording, the only control over individual channel levels is via the record input gains. 

You won't have control over panning in any case- channels 1 and 3 are both routed to the Left channel output, channels 2 and 4 are both routed to the Right channel output.

As hi and low mentioned, the digital output duplicates the headphone output.  The analog RCA outputs may be switched between 4 individual channel outputs or 2 pairs of stereo outputs which are duplicates of the headphone out (assuming any firmware version later than the original release).
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 29, 2014, 04:43:41 PM
so... anyone have a link to the firmware update procedure?    ;D

i can't find it.

http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=downloads&p=R-44&id=1812303 (http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=downloads&p=R-44&id=1812303)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on July 29, 2014, 04:47:31 PM
so... anyone have a link to the firmware update procedure?    ;D

i can't find it.

http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=downloads&p=R-44&id=1812303 (http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=downloads&p=R-44&id=1812303)

thanks.  i went from 1.05 > 1.21

i like the new zoom levels!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 29, 2014, 04:50:41 PM
That was fast.

Haven't done this update yet myself.  I'd still like to see a firmware update that provides panning, even if it's via the effects.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on July 29, 2014, 05:16:13 PM
That was fast.

Haven't done this update yet myself.  I'd still like to see a firmware update that provides panning, even if it's via the effects.

well, i had the gear out for counting crows and toad the wet sprocket tonight.  the update literally took about a minute and half total.  about 20 seconds to actually install.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on July 29, 2014, 06:29:33 PM
I've done that jb63, here's a bit more detail on what hi and low posted-

If doing it on playback from the R44, you'll get individual output level control over each of the 4 channels.   If doing it 'live' while recording, the only control over individual channel levels is via the record input gains. 

You won't have control over panning in any case- channels 1 and 3 are both routed to the Left channel output, channels 2 and 4 are both routed to the Right channel output.

As hi and low mentioned, the digital output duplicates the headphone output.  The analog RCA outputs may be switched between 4 individual channel outputs or 2 pairs of stereo outputs which are duplicates of the headphone out (assuming any firmware version later than the original release).



Excellent!
Right now I'm struggling through how to have 2 channels input digital and 2 channels analog with phantom power.
It should be easy, right?

;-)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on July 29, 2014, 08:31:04 PM

Excellent!
Right now I'm struggling through how to have 2 channels input digital and 2 channels analog with phantom power.
It should be easy, right?

;-)

You can do it, man..!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on July 29, 2014, 10:31:16 PM
I've done that jb63, here's a bit more detail on what hi and low posted-

If doing it on playback from the R44, you'll get individual output level control over each of the 4 channels.   If doing it 'live' while recording, the only control over individual channel levels is via the record input gains. 

You won't have control over panning in any case- channels 1 and 3 are both routed to the Left channel output, channels 2 and 4 are both routed to the Right channel output.

As hi and low mentioned, the digital output duplicates the headphone output.  The analog RCA outputs may be switched between 4 individual channel outputs or 2 pairs of stereo outputs which are duplicates of the headphone out (assuming any firmware version later than the original release).



Excellent!
Right now I'm struggling through how to have 2 channels input digital and 2 channels analog with phantom power.
It should be easy, right?

;-)

Digi-in on the R-44 is fixed to channels 1+2. You have to use channels 3+4 for analog input. Select DIG+ANALOG on the recording settings menu. Don't have mine in front of me right now but that should set you down the right path...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ultfris101 on July 30, 2014, 10:30:16 AM
I've done that jb63, here's a bit more detail on what hi and low posted-

If doing it on playback from the R44, you'll get individual output level control over each of the 4 channels.   If doing it 'live' while recording, the only control over individual channel levels is via the record input gains. 

You won't have control over panning in any case- channels 1 and 3 are both routed to the Left channel output, channels 2 and 4 are both routed to the Right channel output.

As hi and low mentioned, the digital output duplicates the headphone output.  The analog RCA outputs may be switched between 4 individual channel outputs or 2 pairs of stereo outputs which are duplicates of the headphone out (assuming any firmware version later than the original release).



Excellent!
Right now I'm struggling through how to have 2 channels input digital and 2 channels analog with phantom power.
It should be easy, right?

;-)

Digi-in on the R-44 is fixed to channels 1+2. You have to use channels 3+4 for analog input. Select DIG+ANALOG on the recording settings menu. Don't have mine in front of me right now but that should set you down the right path...

and any time you change the recording config remember to confirm you go back to "Stereo x 2" or whatever you need. It defaults to "Stereo x 1". this takes a while to notice at first and will drive you nuts when you think you have it setup to do both digi and analog. Otherwise it really is that easy. Digi for 1+2 and use Analog for 3+4 and Stereo x 2 (total of four channels) and you're in good shape.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on July 30, 2014, 02:08:04 PM
You can also use the monox4 option, which I find easier to load and use in wave editor...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 30, 2014, 02:25:39 PM
You can also use the monox4 option, which I find easier to load and use in wave editor...

Is that option available when using the digital input?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on July 30, 2014, 02:34:40 PM
It isn't mono x4, that isn't available with digi in. I misspoke. I meant that 4x1 option; that is the one I use, and find easier, instead of stereox2
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 30, 2014, 04:26:19 PM
Thanks, I didn't realize you could do monox4 4x1 with the dig-in either.   :)

[edit- do'h I mixed it up, too]
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on July 30, 2014, 04:32:33 PM
You cannot do the mono x4 with digi in. You can do that 4x1 setting that makes a 4ch wav, which is what I prefer to use, as it is easy to load and use in wave editor. I apologize for any confusion...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on July 30, 2014, 08:15:42 PM
Well I should have just waited!
I figured all that stuff out last night and here you have all told me and saved me a bunch of time.

Ok. So master: slave. Do I need a special cable?
Will the master simply make the slave do the same thing? Ie: turn on and of at the same time.
Can the master run digital in AND ANALOG IN while the slave runs only analog in?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on July 31, 2014, 05:11:14 AM
Well I should have just waited!
I figured all that stuff out last night and here you have all told me and saved me a bunch of time.

Ok. So master: slave. Do I need a special cable?
Will the master simply make the slave do the same thing? Ie: turn on and of at the same time.
Can the master run digital in AND ANALOG IN while the slave runs only analog in?

Yes to all of this, I configure this way much of the time.

You need a 1/8 TRS male-male cable.

The slave deck will synch, but you will observe that you will have to time-align the starting positions of the slave files with the master files, in post.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on July 31, 2014, 02:54:43 PM

You need a 1/8 TRS male-male cable.

The slave deck will synch, but you will observe that you will have to time-align the starting positions of the slave files with the master files, in post.

I guess that's why it isn't included in the box. Its just a simple cable.

Thanks again! Next outing on Sunday, so I'll try to get it together...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on July 31, 2014, 07:33:43 PM
Yes to all of this, I configure this way much of the time.

You need a 1/8 TRS male-male cable.

The slave deck will synch, but you will observe that you will have to time-align the starting positions of the slave files with the master files, in post.

This has been discussed elsewhere in the R-44 thread and on these boards, but figured I'd reiterate it: syncing two R-44s via an 1/8" TRS cable only syncs the stop/start control.  It does not sync the clocks of the two decks and you will likely have to adjust samples in post and not just time-align the starting and ending positions of the tracks.  I know that there are some R-44 users who swear that the clocks of two decks have been perfectly aligned via just the 1/8" cable but in my experience, and I believe Roland's take on this, I have found that is definitely not the case.  The only way I (along with acidjack) have ever been able to clock-sync two R-44s is via the S/PIDF on the decks.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on July 31, 2014, 09:48:53 PM
I whole-heartedly disagree.  I sync two r-44's perfectly, successfully, every time.  No bullshit.

It is unfortunate that you and acidjack could not sync your two particular machines, Fried Chicken Boy.

I can provide many examples of filesets that illustrate that my r-44's sync.

Have fun jb63, and please let us know your findings.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on August 01, 2014, 02:03:48 PM
If your decks sync perfectly via 1/8" TRS, capn, then that's a great thing and I can't knock it.  In my experience (and I believe acidjack even tried it with another R-44, Dan Lynch's) we could not ever get two of them to clock-sync via the 1/8" cable, it needed the S/PIDF.  With all respect, we'll just have to agree to disagree on our findings. 

To echo capn's sentiments, have fun rolling with the R-44, jb63, and please let us know what comes of it.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on August 01, 2014, 04:26:36 PM
If your decks sync perfectly via 1/8" TRS, capn, then that's a great thing and I can't knock it.  In my experience (and I believe acidjack even tried it with another R-44, Dan Lynch's) we could not ever get two of them to clock-sync via the 1/8" cable, it needed the S/PIDF.  With all respect, we'll just have to agree to disagree on our findings. 

To echo capn's sentiments, have fun rolling with the R-44, jb63, and please let us know what comes of it.

so, you can link the two together with a standard 1/8th stereo cable, but may have to adjust the clocks in post..

how do you sync two decks together using s/pidf?  and can you use all 8 channels? 

i mean, a s/pidf cable isn't much more expensive than an 1/8th stereo cable.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on August 01, 2014, 05:03:38 PM
Connect, and the one that has the spdif going in, set clock to ext

Can use all four analog ins, no digi in, 'cos you are sending the clock info through that jack...

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on August 01, 2014, 07:14:52 PM
Connect, and the one that has the spdif going in, set clock to ext

Can use all four analog ins, no digi in, 'cos you are sending the clock info through that jack...

wait, so digi out from deck one to digi in on deck two?  i'm confused.

page 75 in the manual only mentions using the 1/8th stereo sync.

http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=manuals&p=R-44&id=1810810
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on August 01, 2014, 08:23:46 PM
just use the 1/8" TRS sync cable.

set one machine to master

set the other to slave

record any way you want

let us know how you make out
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on August 01, 2014, 08:26:07 PM
just use the 1/8" TRS sync cable.

set one machine to master

set the other to slave

record any way you want

let us know how you make out

well, that's the plan.  i've never had two units together yet, but my buddy is buying one soon.  will do.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: H₂O on August 01, 2014, 09:27:32 PM
I thought as discussed in earlier threads that the word clock will not sync using the "sync" cables (only control is sync'd)
- and verified by Roland support/engineering

Although some people have seen near perfect alignment when running 2 decks others have seen significant drift between 2 decks

To get around this limitation you need to run a spdif cable from out on master deck to in on slave and set slave's clock to sync to ext as noted above


This is in addition to the 1/8" TRS "SYNC" cable
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on August 01, 2014, 09:52:07 PM
I thought as discussed in earlier threads that the word clock will not sync using the "sync" cables (only control is sync'd)
- and verified by Roland support/engineering

Although some people have seen near perfect alignment when running 2 decks others have seen significant drift between 2 decks

To get around this limitation you need to run a spdif cable from out on master deck to in on slave and set slave's clock to sync to ext as noted above


This is in addition to the 1/8" TRS "SYNC" cable

okay, so you need to run BOTH?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: H₂O on August 01, 2014, 09:56:39 PM
okay, so you need to run BOTH?


yes
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on August 02, 2014, 07:11:49 AM
okay, so you need to run BOTH?


no


but go ahead and use both if it makes you feel better.


have fun and please let us know your findings.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on August 02, 2014, 10:23:26 AM
So a simple coax cable from the digi out to the digi in (both right next to the ctrl sync plug)  and you can get the clocks to sync?

Am I reading that right?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on August 02, 2014, 10:34:44 AM
if you run a coax from one to the other... aren't you just using the same channels?  so, you can't really record 8 channels...

this is confusing.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: H₂O on August 02, 2014, 02:24:41 PM
What I know from reading these threads is that the clock can only sync via the spdif - the sync cable only sync'd control meaning if you run more than 1 r-44 you and connect only via sync cable you risk having recordings with drift issues that have to be fixed in post

Some people including capnhook claim to have not run into this issue others have run into significant drift issues requiring a lot of alignment work in post

Depending how matched the clocks between the two units are will determine how much of a drift issue you may encounter

You may want to set this up a head of time and run you're 2 r-44's together for 3-4 hours and see how managable the drift is

You can also test using an external clock as the other poster mentions - they suggest it's possible to sync via spdif to ext without eating 2 channels
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on August 02, 2014, 02:35:27 PM
You can also test using an external clock as the other poster mentions - they suggest it's possible to sync via spdif to ext without eating 2 channels

There is a way to do this and get the full 8 channels to use, but I can't recall exactly how we did it using a USBPre2.  It's been awhile.  Paging acidjack...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: macdaddy on August 02, 2014, 03:15:07 PM
You set the clock and the recording sources seperately, so you would set the clock to external, and the recording source to analog...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 02, 2014, 04:13:15 PM
What I know for sure:
The 1/8" TRS links the transport controls (and for some users may sync clocks.. or not).
The SPDIF connection can sync clocks.

As I recall:
Syncing clocks using a direct SPDIF connection between two R44s requires duplicating those two SPDIF channels on both machines.  So you get 6 separate channels, 2 of these duplicated across the two machines.  I might be wrong in that, it would be better if you could use it to only sync clocks, but that's the way I remember it working.

Getting all 8 channels while syncing clocks via SPDIF requires using a third device like the USBPre2 which is able to replace the audio data in the SPDIF stream coming from the R44 serving as the master clock with its own audio data from it's preamp inputs, while retaining the clock data from the master R44.  You can then record using all four built-in preamps on the Master R44, and the two USBPre2 channels plus two built-in preamp channels on the clock-slaved R44.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on August 02, 2014, 06:05:18 PM
What I know for sure:
The 1/8" TRS links the transport controls (and for some users may sync clocks.. or not).
The SPDIF connection can sync clocks.

As I recall:
Syncing clocks using a direct SPDIF connection between two R44s requires duplicating those two SPDIF channels on both machines.  So you get 6 separate channels, 2 of these duplicated across the two machines.  I might be wrong in that, it would be better if you could use it to only sync clocks, but that's the way I remember it working.

Getting all 8 channels while syncing clocks via SPDIF requires using a third device like the USBPre2 which is able to replace the audio data in the SPDIF stream coming from the R44 serving as the master clock with its own audio data from it's preamp inputs, while retaining the clock data from the master R44.  You can then record using all four built-in preamps on the Master R44, and the two USBPre2 channels plus two built-in preamp channels on the clock-slaved R44.

this is just me thinking it through, no actual practice in the matter.

but if you use digi out from deck one, you would be sending a four channel mix to channels one and two of deck two.  from there, that four channel mix will be clock sync'd with channels three and four on deck two (because you're using one deck, obviously). 

so, it would be an on the fly four channel mix on channels one and two of deck two, plus channel three (actually five) and channel four (actually six).

sound right?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on August 02, 2014, 07:26:11 PM
You guys could complicate a tomato sandwich... :banging head:

There is no way to set any r-44 clocks to external OR internal.  No need for any stinkin' digi cables.

Use the 1/8 TRS male-male sync cable only.  It works for me 100% of the time.

Please report your findings here.

It is possible that a certain range of s/n's will sync, and others will not.

Let's get some data, fellas.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 02, 2014, 09:53:14 PM
if you use digi out from deck one, you would be sending a four channel mix to channels one and two of deck two.

Only if that's what you choose to send.

SPDIF output is a duplicate of whatever you route to the headphone out. Cycle through these choices by pressing the headphone level knob: 
1) nothing
2) any individual channel in mono (1,2,3,4>L/R)
3) all 4 summed to mono (1+2+3+4>L/R)
4) 1>L / 2>R
5) 3>L / 4>R
6) 1+3>L / 2+4>R

(Don't push the knob while recording, if you do you'll immediately switch what is routed to the SPDIF out)


There is no way to set any r-44 clocks to external OR internal.

There is, but there is no menu switch.  The R-44 automatically senses the clock rate of an incoming SPDIF stream.  If that SPDIF stream does not match the clock rate the R-44 is set to in the record menu, the sampling rate indicator on the R-44 display will blink, indicating that the clock-sync is not locked.

The sampling rate indicator on the display will either be steadily illuminated, indicating one of these two conditions..
1) no SPDIF input, using the internal clock
- OR -
2) sync established to the SPDIF input (only possible when the R44 record/menu selection has been set to the same clock rate)

Or it will blink, indicating that it senses an external SPDIF stream but is not locked to it for whatever reason and is using the internal clock.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: H₂O on August 02, 2014, 11:58:41 PM
Acid jack or some of the other NYC tapers could never get the clocks to sync using the sync cable they called Roland support and Roland support told them no clock is sent over the sync cable - the only way they could ever get the clocks to sync was some convoluted way using a sd usbpre2

This is all already well documented some where in this same thread

As most of us all ready know the cap'n is pretty stubborn so take what he says with a grain of salt
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on August 03, 2014, 09:44:38 AM
I'm salt-water and fresh-water, H2O... ;D

Have fun, happy taping y'all!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on August 07, 2014, 09:13:19 PM
Well, I wasn't able to get the sync thing going but pulled the analog and digital in without a hitch. I'm going to experiment this weekend with 2 decks and try to sync them using both possible scenarios.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: DSatz on August 09, 2014, 12:11:39 AM
capnhook, the cable doesn't sync the two decks' clocks. It only conveys stop/start signals from one deck to the other.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on August 09, 2014, 02:30:28 PM
capnhook, the cable doesn't sync the two decks' clocks. It only conveys stop/start signals from one deck to the other.

But that's half the battle at least. 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 09, 2014, 04:29:28 PM
The question I have is:

If the R-44 is set to record 4 analog inputs (not recording the digital in), will it still sync it's clock to a SPDIF stream reaching it's digital input which is running at the same nominal sampling rate?

If so, just use both cables.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jbell on August 09, 2014, 04:54:04 PM
Any 1/8>1/8 cable will work to sync the decks??  TIA
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: H₂O on August 09, 2014, 05:14:13 PM
Any 1/8>1/8 cable will work to sync the decks??  TIA

The 1/8" connectors only sync control (record/pause/stop) not clock

If you want to sync clock you must also use a spdif cable and set the second unit's clock to sync to ext from the menu
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jbell on August 09, 2014, 05:20:52 PM
Yes, I understood that part!  Thanks

Any 1/8>1/8 cable will work to sync the decks??  TIA

The 1/8" connectors only sync control (record/pause/stop) not clock

If you want to sync clock you must also use a spdif cable and set the second unit's clock to sync to ext from the menu
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 09, 2014, 06:47:34 PM
If you want to sync clock you must also use a spdif cable and set the second unit's clock to sync to ext from the menu

There is no menu switch specifically controlling external clock sync.

These are the menu switches related to this-

Recording Setup menu:
Input Select: ANALOG/DIGITAL (switches what is recorded to ch1&2, the SPDIF input or the analog inputs)
Rec Freq: 44.1 thru 192kHz (the internal clock rate)
System Setup menu:
Sync mode- MASTER/SLAVE (effects the transport control functions, not the clock)

Regardless of the settings of either of those menu switches, this is the behavior when a digital input is applied:

There is no way to set any r-44 clocks to external OR internal.

There is, but there is no menu switch.  The R-44 automatically senses the clock rate of an incoming SPDIF stream.  If that SPDIF stream does not match the clock rate the R-44 is set to in the record menu, the sampling rate indicator on the R-44 display will blink, indicating that the clock-sync is not locked.

The sampling rate indicator on the display will either be steadily illuminated, indicating one of these two conditions..
1) no SPDIF input, using the internal clock
- OR -
2) sync established to the SPDIF input (only possible when the R44 record/menu selection has been set to the same clock rate)

Or it will blink, indicating that it senses an external SPDIF stream but is not locked to it for whatever reason and is using the internal clock.

I can confirm that blinking/non-blinking sample rate indicator behavior on the display.  It is my assumption (the part in bold above) that clock-sync is positively established when there is an active SPDIF connection and the indicator is not-blinking.  However, I've not examined files to confirm that conclusively, nor actually used the deck that way.

That's why I asked for actual confirmation of that a few posts above.  If so it is simplest way to provide clock-sync without sacrificing two channels to record the SPDIF input.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on August 09, 2014, 07:01:41 PM
capnhook, the cable doesn't sync the two decks' clocks. It only conveys stop/start signals from one deck to the other.

I will take your word for it, DSatz.  Thanks.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: H₂O on August 09, 2014, 08:30:39 PM

There is no menu switch specifically controlling external clock sync.

These are the menu switches related to this-

Recording Setup menu:
Input Select: ANALOG/DIGITAL (switches what is recorded to ch1&2, the SPDIF input or the analog inputs)
Rec Freq: 44.1 thru 192kHz (the internal clock rate)
System Setup menu:
Sync mode- MASTER/SLAVE (effects the transport control functions, not the clock)

Regardless of the settings of either of those menu switches, this is the behavior when a digital input is applied:



Correct - I reviewed the manual and their is no way to set the clock - my bad
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on August 11, 2014, 09:15:35 PM
set up a poll comping the Oade CM R-44 with the Grace V3 pre's.  please participate.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=169346.msg2104427#new

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 12, 2014, 09:36:18 AM
Ah, that's a hint.  ;)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on August 29, 2014, 01:18:45 PM
OK, I am so tired of just coming here with stupid questions and problems.

(sigh)

But I survived the summer taping extravaganza, and the end result is: i seem to have fried the battery plug on my R44.

It works with batteries now, but does not accept the any input from the dvd cable or the power plug.
Tried a factory reset, but wasn't willing to risk much more than that.
I'm guessing that has happened to more than one person here, so I figure someone can tell me what I've done and what its going to cost me.

And now...

...that fall taping season begins on Monday!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: bombdiggity on August 29, 2014, 02:05:35 PM

(sigh)


Have not heard of that happening (though don't have the institutional memory of some around here).  Hope it never happens to me... 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on August 29, 2014, 02:33:27 PM
^^  I have heard of this happening but only a few times at most and reported somewhere in the vastness of these R-44 threads.  IIRC, there is a tiny fuse on the board at the AC input that will blow if over-pushed on voltage to protect the rest of the electronics.  I recall someone posting a picture of the innards here and I believe it was DigiGal who spotted/diagnosed it.  Unless I'm mistaken and somebody on these boards can fix it, I think you have to send it to Edirol/Roland to get taken care of.  No idea what the cost is. 

This is a pretty hearty deck so it's a very rare occurrence when it happens.  Were you using an external battery to power the R-44 or wall power?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: H₂O on August 29, 2014, 03:09:32 PM
I remember digigal's pics showing 2 fuses soldered immediately next to the power plug

Both seemed to be easy to find and replace
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jbell on August 29, 2014, 03:54:58 PM
I have the same problem!!  Mine is currently in with a local tech that services for Roland.  I'll let you know the damage when I get it back.

OK, I am so tired of just coming here with stupid questions and problems.

(sigh)

But I survived the summer taping extravaganza, and the end result is: i seem to have fried the battery plug on my R44.

It works with batteries now, but does not accept the any input from the dvd cable or the power plug.
Tried a factory reset, but wasn't willing to risk much more than that.
I'm guessing that has happened to more than one person here, so I figure someone can tell me what I've done and what its going to cost me.

And now...

...that fall taping season begins on Monday!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 29, 2014, 04:24:03 PM
Start here (looks like the photo links RichT posted and DigiGal x-posted are dead)-
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145920.msg1876239#msg1876239

The original photos and more on the board-mountd SMD fuses is here-
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=123284.msg1894629#msg1894629
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on August 29, 2014, 10:50:23 PM
I love you guys.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on August 30, 2014, 08:07:35 PM
Happened to me too in the early R44 days - the local authorised service centre didn't have the service manual and as I now recall it, it took a couple of weeks at least for them to get hold of one, and then another week or so to actually fix it.  What the fix was I don't recall being told.  As for cost, I'm pretty sure it was a warranty job.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on September 03, 2014, 07:10:02 PM
Well, the 4 screws on the bottom come off easily, but I can't make the center one budge, so its going to be someone else to fix it.
I'm guessing i blew one of those fuses by plugging in the wrong power source, but I can't be entirely certain.

Time to spend more money, I guess.

Funny thing is, it just preformed flawlessly for 3 hours, taking a digital feed from the acmV3 and powering dpa4061s, then, as i was schmoozing it up with the band, forgetting to turn it off, it saved the files and powered down on its own. The adaptor would have only been a backup for most shows I can make it to these days.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on September 04, 2014, 01:00:36 PM
I'm guessing i blew one of those fuses by plugging in the wrong power source, but I can't be entirely certain.

With the R-44 using the odd center-pin-negative AC input/adapter, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.  The Achilles heel of an otherwise solid deck.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jbell on September 04, 2014, 06:11:56 PM
I got the ac input fixed for $80!!  It was a local Roland Tech so I didn't have to ship it.

Well, the 4 scores on the bottom come off easily, but I can't make the center one budge, so its going to be someone else to fix it.
I'm guessing i blew one of those fuses by plugging in the wrong power source, but I can't be entirely certain.

Time to spend more money, I guess.

Funny thing is, it just preformed flawlessly for 3 hours, taking a digital feed from the acmV3 and powering dpa4061s, then, as i was schmoozing it up with the band, forgetting to turn it off, it saved the files and powered down on its own. The adaptor would have only been a backup for most shows I can make it to these days.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on September 15, 2014, 07:05:36 PM
Oade CM R-44 pre's beat out the V3 in my informal comp:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=169346.0
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: achalsey on September 15, 2014, 07:20:09 PM
I feel like the fact you were using different mic patterns might have had something to do with it as well.  Not  necessarily the case but it doesn't seem unlikely that more people preferred cards over the sub wide cards from back of the room.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 15, 2014, 08:16:29 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much my take away on it too.

In any case I've no complaints running straight into my OCM R44 without the V3 in between and this comp doesn't sway me from that.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on October 07, 2014, 05:35:37 PM
I have come back with more questions.
While attempting to upgraded a brand new R44 to a concert mod, Doug noticed an intermittent problem:

"The combo jacks on channels 2 & 3 have intermittent 1/4" switches.
All 4 channels work perfectly on the 1/4" inputs.
When you plug in a 1/4" connector, there is a switch that takes the XLRs out of circuit.
It's that switch that is problematic on this R44."

He can either bypass the switches which cost 110.00 or replace the entire jack board which cost 350.00.

I don't really understand this, but I know someone here does. I don't currently use the 1/4" in part of the in jacks, but plug in XLRs into the same jack, as well as using the digital in.
Currently that's the way I usually use it: DIGI+ANALOG; Stereo x2. Sometimes, I'll do all 4 channels XLR; ANALOG, Stereo x2.

Now even as I type this, I feel that I should be able to understand it, but I just don't. I'm guessing that when I plug in all 4 XLRs, they aren't taking the 1/4" out of circuit, but if I should ever plug in the 1/4", they won't take the XLRs out of circuit. (I still don't understand what I am saying when I say this).

So basically, I have to decide what I need, since I don't need an additional $110 or $350 bill, but I want the machine to do what I want it to do.

Can someone clear any of this up for me so I understand what I'm talking about?

Thanks!

jb

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 07, 2014, 06:12:28 PM
Those combo female XLR / 1/4" TRS input jacks are pretty common on a lot of gear.  I've never examined any of the working bits of those things very closely, but assumed on the R44 that they essentially used extensions of the same contacts within the plug for both XLR and TRS plugs.  That's what it appears like when you look at the jacks from the outside. 

I can see that as a commonly used combo jack there would be a switch inside them to accommodate gear where the XLR and TRS inputs actually feed different signal paths within the unit (like for a hi-Z instrument TRS input and low-Z XLR mic input), but the circuitry past the input jack in the R44 is identical for both types of input.  That's what the circuit diagram indicates, how the machine seems to behave, and the commonly accepted scenario around here. 

If there is a switch within each jack, it's not working should not cause any obvious functional problem in either failure mode (stuck open or stuck closed), as far as I can tell.  At least as long as the signal path isn't compromised for either input- meaning that either XLR and TRS input works.

I don't think you need to anything for the machine to work correctly with either type of input.
I stand ready to be corrected though.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: huskerdu on October 07, 2014, 06:47:51 PM
I have come back with more questions.
While attempting to upgraded a brand new R44 to a concert mod, Doug noticed an intermittent problem:

"The combo jacks on channels 2 & 3 have intermittent 1/4" switches.
All 4 channels work perfectly on the 1/4" inputs.
When you plug in a 1/4" connector, there is a switch that takes the XLRs out of circuit.
It's that switch that is problematic on this R44."

Is he implying that channels 2 & 3 aren't working perfectly with the XLR inputs? I would think that it's a mechanical failure...it just seems unusual that you would have two go bad at the same time.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: bombdiggity on October 07, 2014, 07:05:45 PM
I think I also don't follow it. 

This is a new unit too?  Odd.

I've always used XLR's only but the prospect of ever using 1/4" and having that mess up the inputs has me a little spooked.  I guess I'll mentally rule that out.  My sbd stereo patch cable was RCA to RCA so I got those "bullet" adapters from RCA to XLR to run it into the R-44 the few times I did. 

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 07, 2014, 07:18:48 PM
All 4 channels work perfectly on the 1/4" inputs.

I'd ask Doug this:

"Will this problem affect use of the XLR inputs in any way?"

If not then it doesn't matter and you don't need to do anything.  If it will then bypassing them effectively fixes that problem and you'll be able to use either XLR or TRS inputs however you like.

That's the $110 question I think.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on October 10, 2014, 11:49:29 PM
So the consensus was that if I'm never going to use the 1/4" jacks, then go for the bypass, which I think, means I will never use the 1/4 jacks.

Problem was, by doing the mod, I voided the warranty, and Doug discovered this after doing the mod.

It's ok. I tested the r44 and did a comparison when I had 2. Everyone should try that. The mod is the best $200 I could spend. (Well, actually $300 plus shipping, now.)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on October 11, 2014, 12:48:01 AM
I feel like the fact you were using different mic patterns might have had something to do with it as well.  Not  necessarily the case but it doesn't seem unlikely that more people preferred cards over the sub wide cards from back of the room.

i could see that.  i wish i had two sets of cards to comp, but i did my best.

either way... after extensive use, i really don't see the need for the V3.  the Oade CM R-44 is legit on it's own.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on October 13, 2014, 01:22:54 PM
So the consensus was that if I'm never going to use the 1/4" jacks, then go for the bypass, which I think, means I will never use the 1/4 jacks.

Problem was, by doing the mod, I voided the warranty, and Doug discovered this after doing the mod.

It's ok. I tested the r44 and did a comparison when I had 2. Everyone should try that. The mod is the best $200 I could spend. (Well, actually $300 plus shipping, now.)


I thought Doug only modded R-44s you bought from him.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: T-90 on October 13, 2014, 07:25:52 PM
Hasn't been his policy for years...he did the mod on my r44 and I did not purchase from him...I think he realized it was good for biz to adjust that policy
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on October 13, 2014, 07:29:22 PM
sync'd two R-44's the other night.  when using the prerecord function, there was an instant 1.5 or 2 second difference in clocks. 

i turned the prerecord off both units and it was synced perfectly.

have not had a chance to check the files from separate records to see if there was drift or not.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jbell on October 13, 2014, 07:35:14 PM
I think you have to buy modded Marantz gear direct from Doug.

Hasn't been his policy for years...he did the mod on my r44 and I did not purchase from him...I think he realized it was good for biz to adjust that policy
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: T-90 on October 14, 2014, 08:36:19 AM
I think you have to buy modded Marantz gear direct from Doug.

Hasn't been his policy for years...he did the mod on my r44 and I did not purchase from him...I think he realized it was good for biz to adjust that policy

I think he stopped that policy as well....this is from his website:


The following Upgrades are available for any Digital Recorders in good working order.
Please note, our upgrade voids the factory warranty.
If we did not sell the machine with an upgrade installed, we warranty only the parts we put in, not the entire machine.
Please contact Doug Oade via E-mail to obtain an RMA number as well as shipping and payment instructions.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on October 24, 2014, 12:46:33 AM
OKAY!  here's my experience with syncing two R-44's...

Master:  Brand new Oade CM R-44E (which had a much smaller but BRIGHTER screen... weird)... 

Slave:  ~Five year old Oade CM R-44.

Master had Rode mics + SBD.  Slave had dpa4023's.  Mics on same stand.  synced using a standard 1/8th inch stereo cable.  the only problem that i had was we had to turn off the pre record function.

after 3 hours and 55 minutes.  ZERO DRIFT!

none.  nothing.  zilch.  nada.

everything matched up perfectly. 

so, here is another testimony of a perfect sync.  ymmv.

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on October 24, 2014, 05:35:38 AM
OKAY!  here's my experience with syncing two R-44's....

......after 3 hours and 55 minutes.  ZERO DRIFT!

none.  nothing.  zilch.  nada.

everything matched up perfectly. 

so, here is another testimony of a perfect sync.  ymmv.

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.  I had a feeling that I wasn't the only one in the universe that can sync two r-44's.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 24, 2014, 11:04:36 AM
Maybe having pre-record turned on is the common problem with un-synced Master/Slave R44s. 

I don't remember much discussion about that, and most users around here would have that turned on most of the time by default.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on October 24, 2014, 03:50:23 PM
OKAY!  here's my experience with syncing two R-44's....

......after 3 hours and 55 minutes.  ZERO DRIFT!

none.  nothing.  zilch.  nada.

everything matched up perfectly. 

so, here is another testimony of a perfect sync.  ymmv.

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.  I had a feeling that I wasn't the only one in the universe that can sync two r-44's.

Yup. I recorded sound check with pre record on and noticed that the clocks were off. I turned pre record off for the main two sets and it was perfect. I think people having problems need to check their pre record settings, make sure they are off and try again.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on October 24, 2014, 03:51:38 PM
Maybe having pre-record turned on is the common problem with un-synced Master/Slave R44s. 

I don't remember much discussion about that, and most users around here would have that turned on most of the time by default.

Yup. I imagine that might get over looked a lot. It's worth trying out if you haven't had luck in the past.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: kirk97132 on October 24, 2014, 05:26:14 PM
OKAY!  here's my experience with syncing two R-44's....

......after 3 hours and 55 minutes.  ZERO DRIFT!

none.  nothing.  zilch.  nada.

everything matched up perfectly. 

so, here is another testimony of a perfect sync.  ymmv.

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.  I had a feeling that I wasn't the only one in the universe that can sync two r-44's.
If you were to dig back to 2009 you could find my posts about the clock syncing on the R-44's.  Per the Edirol(now Roland) techs the clocks are NOT sync'd with the 1/8" cable just the transport functions.  With that being said, it is possible that two units will run perfectly in sync, But it is pure chance.  JUst like the Yamaha CD burner I had that synced perfectly with my DR-680.  Just happened to work.  You just cannot count on the two units running in perfect sync, unless you use something like a USBPre-2 in the chain that allows external sync.  The subject has been kicked around and there are varing opinions but I tend to believe the guys at the factory when they told me that cable did not have anything to do with the clocks on the decks. 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Ozpeter on October 25, 2014, 08:31:15 AM
Quote
But it is pure chance.

But a chance that happens pretty often.  I forget whether anyone has tried monitoring that cable to check whether any signal passes all the time or only when a transport function is used.  But if the clock chips are the same, as would seem likely, you'd expect a pretty high order of consistency, and maybe that accounts for it.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on October 25, 2014, 09:36:32 AM
OKAY!  here's my experience with syncing two R-44's....

......after 3 hours and 55 minutes.  ZERO DRIFT!

none.  nothing.  zilch.  nada.

everything matched up perfectly. 

so, here is another testimony of a perfect sync.  ymmv.

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.  I had a feeling that I wasn't the only one in the universe that can sync two r-44's.
If you were to dig back to 2009 you could find my posts about the clock syncing on the R-44's.  Per the Edirol(now Roland) techs the clocks are NOT sync'd with the 1/8" cable just the transport functions.  With that being said, it is possible that two units will run perfectly in sync, But it is pure chance.  JUst like the Yamaha CD burner I had that synced perfectly with my DR-680.  Just happened to work.  You just cannot count on the two units running in perfect sync, unless you use something like a USBPre-2 in the chain that allows external sync.  The subject has been kicked around and there are varing opinions but I tend to believe the guys at the factory when they told me that cable did not have anything to do with the clocks on the decks.

I'll take magic over some stinkin' factory rep anyday, kirkd  :P :hmmm: :headphones: :wink2:

Seriously, the sync cable has three conductors.  We should find out what each of them is doing.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on October 26, 2014, 08:33:15 PM
OKAY!  here's my experience with syncing two R-44's....

......after 3 hours and 55 minutes.  ZERO DRIFT!

none.  nothing.  zilch.  nada.

everything matched up perfectly. 

so, here is another testimony of a perfect sync.  ymmv.

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.  I had a feeling that I wasn't the only one in the universe that can sync two r-44's.
If you were to dig back to 2009 you could find my posts about the clock syncing on the R-44's.  Per the Edirol(now Roland) techs the clocks are NOT sync'd with the 1/8" cable just the transport functions.  With that being said, it is possible that two units will run perfectly in sync, But it is pure chance.  JUst like the Yamaha CD burner I had that synced perfectly with my DR-680.  Just happened to work.  You just cannot count on the two units running in perfect sync, unless you use something like a USBPre-2 in the chain that allows external sync.  The subject has been kicked around and there are varing opinions but I tend to believe the guys at the factory when they told me that cable did not have anything to do with the clocks on the decks.

Yeah, and I respect that. I'm not pretending to know anything more than what I've observed. But in my one time experience, after four hours of recording on two complete different device runs (over four or five years difference and one being designated "E"), there was no drift with pre record turned off on both devices.

I will happily report back with further results when I get some.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on October 27, 2014, 09:44:04 AM

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.

Whoever said you were sane Kevin? We know you!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on October 27, 2014, 07:04:26 PM

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.

Whoever said you were sane Kevin? We know you!

ooooops...........yeahyouright Walter..!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jmerin on June 05, 2015, 08:29:39 AM
I am getting the r-44 real soon. Have there been any recent issues with the deck that I should know about.
Thanks
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 05, 2015, 09:37:18 AM
Folks seem to dig the newest firmware with the big meters.  You might update to that.  I still haven't loaded it yet. 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jmerin on June 05, 2015, 09:49:58 AM
Folks seem to dig the newest firmware with the big meters.  You might update to that.  I still haven't loaded it yet.

Thanks, I believe mine will come with that.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: T-90 on June 05, 2015, 11:33:30 AM
Folks seem to dig the newest firmware with the big meters.  You might update to that.  I still haven't loaded it yet.

Thanks, I believe mine will come with that.

I've been runing that version of the firmware for sometime without issue....I love the zoomed in meter view
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: DSatz on June 22, 2015, 09:00:13 PM
I've just had the weirdest R44 experience ever. It was totally my fault, but I still don't understand how what happened could have happened.

Last Thursday I recorded a certain rehearsal, and so did a video guy. My mikes were well placed while his weren't, plus his camera records through tinny sounding built-in electrets and uses heavy, heavy ALC. Having done this before, we planned for me to send him a 48 kHz mp3 file of my recording, which he could then sync up with his video in Adobe Premiere. There's never been a problem with this arrangement, and that arrangemend worked fine for the first half of this rehearsal, too.

Unfortunately, I should have changed the R44's batteries during the intermission, but I didn't--and I didn't notice the battery indicator, and didn't have an outboard battery with me. Totally, totally, my fault. It's been years since I messed up a recording like that. The recorder shut down during the second half of the rehearsal about four minutes before the end.

I swapped in a new set of batteries and got the final two+ minutes. But it was clear that I would need to rely on my friend's recording for the ~90 seconds that I'd missed. It was just a rehearsal recording, so that's embarrassing and a bummer, but no tragedy.

Getting ready for this bit of audio surgery, my video friend sent me his 48 kHz WAV file, which I converted to 44.1, while my recording of the second part of the rehearsal existed in two 44.1 kHz files: one long one (from the end of intermission until the batteries died), and one short file (the end). The long file wouldn't load into Adobe Audition, and when I looked at its WAV header I could see why: It indicated a 0-length DATA chunk. I repaired the file header, and then the file loaded OK and sounded good. I found suitable edit points, dropped the missing music in, evened out the volume levels and sent my friend a 48 kHz mp3 file of the result.

However, he soon reported that it was several minutes longer than his video recording. And this wasn't a 44.1 vs. 48 kHz thing; I was careful about converting back and forth, and both his recording and mine play back at the same musical pitch. Yet mine takes place over a distinctly longer time span than his, and his matches with his video, while mine doesn't.

You think that's weird? Try this: The ratio of time scales for the two recordings isn't constant. Depending on which musical "landmarks" I measure between, the ratio of elapsed time for the same passage in each of the two recordings is anywhere from 1.377:1 (for a segment near the beginning) to 1.168:1 (for the recording as a whole up to the moment of battery crap-out).

My recording sounds plausible to me at the pace it has, but then so does the camera recording, and it matches the video in duration. I've looked closely at the waveforms in my recording and I don't see any repeated samples or groups of samples, nor do I hear any digital chattering. Plus I can't imagine why there would be, under the circumstances. In the end, I had to tell the video guy to use the sound track from his camera for the entire second half of the rehearsal, although it doesn't sound very good.

This is just so freakish that I had to post the story. Has anyone else here experienced anything like it?

--best regards
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: 2manyrocks on June 23, 2015, 09:55:43 AM
My question about this would be whether the R-44's internal clock was thrown off by the dying voltage of the batteries?  Is that a possible explanation? 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: aaronji on June 23, 2015, 10:28:17 AM
^^^ If the clock was thrown off, presumably the pitch would be too.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 23, 2015, 10:36:28 AM
Strange. Especially the changing time scale ratio.  The recording has a longer time duration near the start than it is near it's end, yet plays back at the same pitch as the other recording (which is minutes shorter overall) at all points. A quite bizarre variable elastic time-shift phenomena. 

This is of no help, but tangentially related- I've been impressed by the routines in modern DAWs which allow time stretching or shrinking without pitch change, but of course they are DSP intensive to do so at high quality without audible artifacts.  I've used that function in Samplitude to shrink the longer of two (or more) recordings made with separate non-clock-sync'd recorders to great effect.  In that application of the tool, the time ratio is of course constant across the entire region of interest.  I have not used the alternate algorithms of the same 'elastic time' function which also vary the time ratio throughout the region, which I believe is designed for tasks such as 'quantizing' audio files in a similar way to what is commonly done with MIDI data.  Presumably used as a way to shift the 'feel' of a percussive rhythmic groove, or slide around the note timing of an out of rhythm performance to place it more 'on the beat'.

As a related aside, I was listening last weekend to a radio program with a segment about a playback 'performance' of Beethoven's 9th stretched from the typical 70 some minutes to 24 hours long.  Pitch was unchanged.  I found myself wondering what algorithm was used to do such extreme time stretching, as the samples of the music played on the program sounded completely clean and artifact free, both in the harmonic sense and time-wise.  Fascinating transformation.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: H₂O on June 23, 2015, 10:42:35 AM
Have you zoomed way into the recording to see if inaudible "pauses" have been added and have you identified where the time discrepancy began to happen?  Could it be a slight sample offset (i.e. 44.1 versus 44.056)?


Does the first set have the same issue?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: DSatz on June 23, 2015, 10:37:04 PM
> Have you zoomed way into the recording to see if inaudible "pauses" have been added and have you identified where the time discrepancy began to happen?

Yes. No pauses; no duplicated samples.

> Could it be a slight sample offset (i.e. 44.1 versus 44.056)?

It's not slight like that; its a 15% to 40% difference. And the ratio varies.

> Does the first set have the same issue?

No, if you mean the half of the rehearsal from before intermission; it syncs up perfectly with the video.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Colin Liston on June 29, 2015, 11:03:39 PM
By no means is this meant to be technical or for that matter helpful, but dying batteries do, do strange things. 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jmerin on July 01, 2015, 08:49:49 AM
What gear bag do you guys use with the r-44?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on July 27, 2015, 08:41:49 AM
R44 question of the week:

Been synching 2 of them together with the 1/8" jack for over a year. Everything has sync'd perfectly. Never had anything go wrong, long, or out of sync.

The only problems have been when the levels are just too low or 2 hot and I've needed a preamp.
So now I want to sync them together with both of them set to digital and analog. But for some reason, I just can't get the second one to accept a digital signal when they are plugged together.

Is it possible? I don't see why not?

Any advice?

Anyway. I use a small eagle creek when I'm just using 1. Plenty of room to pad everything.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 27, 2015, 09:07:36 AM
I've never sync'd two R-44, but I recall something about digital-in being unavailable on the 2nd when set to 'slave' mode.  That would make logical sense if the 2nd is actually clock-syncing to the 'master' recorder through the sync-jack (which has never been firmly established or refuted), rather than via S/PDIF (which definitely clock-syncs, yet dedicates the digital audio input to whatever is providing S/PDIF clock to it).

[edit] ^This has been tested and refuted.  Sync to a second R44 works while using digital-in from an external source to the Master recorder.  Just don't turn on phantom power for the digital input channels (ch1&2).  jb63 reported sucess a few pages later in this thread in this post- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153957.msg2209911#msg2209911 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153957.msg2209911#msg2209911)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on July 27, 2015, 02:18:49 PM
That's it!
I guess I have too many digital preamps for this job!
Who wants to trade a mini me for a mini mp for a month?

Thanks gutbucket!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on October 21, 2015, 06:37:53 PM
Here's another stupid question.
I've actually asked Doug but I forget the answer.

Does the concert mod on the r44 retain the low noise floor without phantom power on?
That is, running my mini MP into channels 1&2 with phantom off + running
Mics into channels 3&4 with phantom power on would both benefit from his chip mod, correct?

I don't see why it wouldn't, but just because this place is a wealth of knowledge and I just spent too long trying to search for this, I thought I'd post the question.

Sigh. Where did the time go?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 21, 2015, 10:28:30 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Brian G on March 01, 2016, 10:51:40 AM
Sorry to ask this question, but I searched and couldn't find an answer. What is the largest card you guys are using with the R-44?  I have been using a 32gig card.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 01, 2016, 04:11:45 PM
AFAIK, 32GB is the max supported size.  That's mostly what I use, but also the largest cards I own.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Brian G on March 02, 2016, 09:05:32 AM
AFAIK, 32GB is the max supported size.  That's mostly what I use, but also the largest cards I own.

Yeah I tried a 64 GB card ( Class 10) last night that I had for a DSLR, The R-44 Would not recognize the card.

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on March 02, 2016, 11:10:50 AM
Would Roland be able to increase supported card size via a firmware upgrade?  Or is this a limitation of the hardware?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 02, 2016, 11:38:13 AM
Dunno.

R-44 was developed when SDHC was the current latest/largest available SD card spec., prior to SDXD.  Support for later cards may be unavailable due to the chips in the recorder not being able to handle them, but I'm only speculating.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tim in jersey on March 02, 2016, 10:24:00 PM
Dunno.

R-44 was developed when SDHC was the current latest/largest available SD card spec., prior to SDXD.  Support for later cards may be unavailable due to the chips in the recorder not being able to handle them, but I'm only speculating.

Likely speculating, but probably on point with that answer.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on March 13, 2016, 09:22:37 PM
Something weird tonight. 

Taping a solo guitar + vox.

Pots at three o clock, seems like I shouldn't have to crank them so much to peak between -12 and -6db in 24/48.

I see the levels peak around -6 or -3 and the "1L" lights up like it clipped. But it wasn't near zero. Then the "1R" did the same thing.  They both went on and off for a bit then stopped.

Can the chip think it's clipping if the levels don't show it near zero?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on March 13, 2016, 09:35:09 PM
Something weird tonight. 

Taping a solo guitar + vox.

Pots at three o clock, seems like I shouldn't have to crank them so much to peak between -12 and -6db in 24/48.

I see the levels peak around -6 or -3 and the "1L" lights up like it clipped. But it wasn't near zero. Then the "1R" did the same thing.  They both went on and off for a bit then stopped.

Can the chip think it's clipping if the levels don't show it near zero?

It's doing it around -8db. Weird.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on March 13, 2016, 11:52:03 PM
just got home and uploaded it to audacity... it DEFINITELY chopped off the tops of my waves around -8dbs. 

this is fucked up.  what is going on?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: matahaka on March 25, 2016, 11:26:11 AM
Is your fader level turned down (like 9 o clock)? It seems like somewhere along the way your signal got amplified too much..?

not sure what i am talking about..
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on March 25, 2016, 04:44:20 PM
What value of mic sens. did you dial to?

Maybe bump the sens. up a notch, and bring the pots back to 12 o'clock next time..?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on March 26, 2016, 07:45:21 PM
What value of mic sens. did you dial to?

Maybe bump the sens. up a notch, and bring the pots back to 12 o'clock next time..?

outer knobs were cranked to about 3'oclock.  just couldn't get the levels high enough.  they never got to -6db.

inner knobs were pinched back to 9'oclock.  i talked to doug oade about it and he said that clipping in the circuitry can happen without showing on the screen.  weird.



something else last night...  i couldn't get a digi signal in on my 1 and 2 channels from my V3.  thought it might be a bad cable.

took my gear to a friend's house and we started going through menus with his R-44.  realized that his was in master and mine was in slave from the last time we taped together, daisy chaining the units for 8 channels...  apparently you can't use digi in when in slave mode. 

who knew...?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: SoundlyAsleep on April 29, 2016, 08:19:17 PM
Hey everybody.

I'm a film student with an R-44, and I've been a big fan of it so far. It far exceeds the quality of recorder available to me from the University's store room, which is anemic in terms of selection to say the least.

I'm not a sound guy, but I really appreciate how good sound is vital in film work, so I'm trying to learn as much as I can to make smart moves with my next few purchases.

Most importantly right now I'm thinking about a separate pre-amp. While the pre-amps in the R-44 are respectable, I've heard great things about the Sound Devices MM-1. I understand it'd need to be run into the R-44 at line level? I'm not too sure but I've read just setting the outer knob at 1 (furthest left) is the equivalent. If I was to get an MM-1 at some point, I wouldn't run into any compatibility issues with the R-44 right?

I'm also thinking of getting some kind of wireless boom set-up going on, because ideally, I want the boom operator mostly autonomous from the sound recordist and to reduce cabling issues. I've got a Rycote G5 boom pole with an integrated XLR.

So my ideal set up (if possible) would look like:

Boom Operator
Microphone (Audix SCX1 HC or something)
G5 Boom
MM-1
Wireless transmitter

Sound Recordist
Wireless Receiver
R-44

This isn't just some crazy pipe-dream, right? All of this should be possible, but I'm not an expert. I'm also thinking about adding a wireless lav system into the mix, but I've very unfamiliar with those.

So yeah, some guidance would be really appreciated.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on May 02, 2016, 08:21:37 AM
I would think it would be better to put the preamp between the wireless receiver and the R-44. I think the wireless is supposed to work with mic levels, not line levels but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 02, 2016, 09:20:13 AM
I see the levels peak around -6 or -3 and the "1L" lights up like it clipped. But it wasn't near zero. Then the "1R" did the same thing.  They both went on and off for a bit then stopped.

Can the chip think it's clipping if the levels don't show it near zero?
What value of mic sens. did you dial to?

Maybe bump the sens. up a notch, and bring the pots back to 12 o'clock next time..?

outer knobs were cranked to about 3'oclock.  just couldn't get the levels high enough.  they never got to -6db.

inner knobs were pinched back to 9'oclock.  i talked to doug oade about it and he said that clipping in the circuitry can happen without showing on the screen.  weird.

The easy answer is to leave the small inner knobs at 12:00.

The outer knobs control the gain of the analog input stage. The inner knobs control a digital gain stage which follows, and is intended for fine trim adjustments only.  The meters follow both gain adjustment stages.  If the inner knobs are set lower than 12:00, the analog input stage can overload and clip even though the meters are not peaking and won't show that behavior.  That's because the digital gain stage is attenuating the already clipped signal before it is displayed on the meters.  The flashing channel number lights indicate that the analog input stage is clipping, even if the meter shows lower levels due to the attenuation of the digital gain stage controlled by the inner knobs.  If you see the channel numbers flash, you have analog stage clipping happening and need to turn down the outer knobs, turning down the inner knobs will not help.

If you leave the inner knobs at 12:00 then the meters pretty much accurately reflect the peak levels through the entire chain within the recorder.  With the inner knobs set further counter-clockwise than 12:00, the signal level through the analog stage is higher than what is indicated on the meters.  If the inner knobs are set further clockwise than 12:00 the signal level through the analog stage is lower than what is indicated on the meters.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: SoundlyAsleep on May 02, 2016, 11:03:46 AM
I would think it would be better to put the preamp between the wireless receiver and the R-44. I think the wireless is supposed to work with mic levels, not line levels but I could be wrong.
I'm mostly basing my model on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7hOldBoD2M

No idea if it'd work in actuality with an R-44, but I guess that's why I came here.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on May 02, 2016, 12:43:31 PM
I would think it would be better to put the preamp between the wireless receiver and the R-44. I think the wireless is supposed to work with mic levels, not line levels but I could be wrong.
I'm mostly basing my model on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7hOldBoD2M

No idea if it'd work in actuality with an R-44, but I guess that's why I came here.

The pad cable wasn't mentioned before but is there do deal with the problem I saw.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: SoundlyAsleep on May 09, 2016, 07:19:47 AM
I would think it would be better to put the preamp between the wireless receiver and the R-44. I think the wireless is supposed to work with mic levels, not line levels but I could be wrong.
I'm mostly basing my model on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7hOldBoD2M

No idea if it'd work in actuality with an R-44, but I guess that's why I came here.

The pad cable wasn't mentioned before but is there do deal with the problem I saw.
Do you know where I could find an appropriate pad cable?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: achalsey on July 27, 2016, 08:20:05 PM
I'm sure I can look this up but I'm at a show and don't want to fiddle with it....

Is there a way to turn off the display screen while recording?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on July 27, 2016, 09:27:04 PM
I'm sure I can look this up but I'm at a show and don't want to fiddle with it....

Is there a way to turn off the display screen while recording?

Black tape
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: achalsey on July 27, 2016, 09:46:34 PM
Ah, okay.  Thanks.  My first time running the r44 and thought I'd seen people turn theirs off in the past, but I guess I was  mistaken.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on July 27, 2016, 11:51:22 PM
You can dim the display, but I haven't figured a way to shut it off.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: cybergaloot on July 30, 2016, 03:38:24 PM
You can dim the display, but I haven't figured a way to shut it off.

I haven't run mine in months but I though you had menu options for the display, off, a few seconds then off and always on.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: achalsey on November 03, 2016, 08:46:47 PM
What does the 'check card' option do?  Right under the format option.  I pressed it assuming it would show the data on the card but it just said 'processing' for a while and went back to the main screen.

I have a few sets I haven't transferred to my computer yet, hoping it doesn't affect those...
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on December 05, 2016, 03:42:15 PM
I've never sync'd two R-44, but I recall something about digital-in being unavailable on the 2nd when set to 'slave' mode.  That would make logical sense if the 2nd is actually clock-syncing to the 'master' recorder through the sync-jack (which has never been firmly established or refuted), rather than via S/PDIF (which definitely clock-syncs, yet dedicates the digital audio input to whatever is providing S/PDIF clock to it).

Just a quick update to last page's question and gutbucket's response.

I'm a little late.

Last night I had both R44s and the acmV3 out. I had given up on syncing when using the digital signal, but on a whim brought a small patch cord for the 1/8" jack. Setting the 1st R44 to master and digital/analog it took the feed from the V3 in channels 1 & 2 and the powered mics in 3 & 4. Setting the 2nd R44 to slave it powered 4 mics and synched up, started and stopped and recorded with the master's controls. The power must be on for both units. The master wouldn't start up the slave, but as long as it was on, it did everything right. Best recorder ever, just bulky!

And
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on December 05, 2016, 03:48:02 PM
What does the 'check card' option do?  Right under the format option.  I pressed it assuming it would show the data on the card but it just said 'processing' for a while and went back to the main screen.

I have a few sets I haven't transferred to my computer yet, hoping it doesn't affect those...

Page 72 of the manual.
It just checks it and erases any non-R44 files to free up space.
It should leave the R44 files alone.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on December 05, 2016, 06:04:07 PM
One more R44 caveat that I learned last night.
Been running these decks for a long time now and this one just got solved.

I had a hard time synching the digital signal from the V3 and tried everything: switching the sample size, plugging and unplugging, switching decks, restarting....

Finally I noticed that the phantom power was on for Channels 1 & 2 and turning that off, shutting down both the V3 & R44 and starting over fixed it right up. So there is, I believe, the main reason that sometimes the R44 doesn't take the digital signal from time to time!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on December 05, 2016, 07:25:02 PM
Thanks for the updates, jb63. This is all good to hear!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on December 09, 2016, 11:14:33 AM
^^  That's a good trick to know about the digital signal.  Cheers, jb63!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on July 31, 2017, 02:46:44 PM
Tomorrow I am going to try (and try again) to get 2 R44s (both running digital & analog inputs) to sync up.
I've had no luck at all, but its a big open show and I'm dying to use my MINI-ME & acmV3.

There are only a couple of combinations of Master > Slave things to try and I have to use the 1/8" to connect them, so maybe it will work.

I welcome any suggestions.
(So far I've been able to get it to work if the Master is set to Digital & Analog, and the slave is set to Analog x2. Never been able to get it to sync with both set to DiG & Analog)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Fried Chicken Boy on July 31, 2017, 04:09:54 PM
Can't shed any light on the Master>Slave settings, but I do recall reading somewhere in the vastness of these threads that completely shutting off the pre-record option on both decks will allow them to sync.  Note that I cannot confirm this as I don't currently have two R-44s at my disposal.  Good luck and keep us posted. 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on August 01, 2017, 11:13:51 PM
Tomorrow I am going to try (and try again) to get 2 R44s (both running digital & analog inputs) to sync up.
I've had no luck at all, but its a big open show and I'm dying to use my MINI-ME & acmV3.

There are only a couple of combinations of Master > Slave things to try and I have to use the 1/8" to connect them, so maybe it will work.

I welcome any suggestions.
(So far I've been able to get it to work if the Master is set to Digital & Analog, and the slave is set to Analog x2. Never been able to get it to sync with both set to DiG & Analog)

Digital input does not work in master/slave mode.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on August 02, 2017, 11:12:36 AM
Well I had no luck.
Digital input DOES work if the Master is set to Digital and Analog in.
The Slave has to be set to Analo and Analog in.

Then use the 1/8" jack to sync them. Be sure not to have phantom power on in the digital in channel.

Last night I tried again to sync 2 of them set to Digital and Analog in, but it just caused the slave to go crazy. I almost thought it was going to work-- all 4 channels started rolling but the slave digital in channels were just overloaded and not adjustable when I turned the knobs on the mini-ME. I tried a lot of combinations after that but it wasn't until I shut everything down and reset it to the way that works (above) that it all calmed down. The slave R44 wouldn't even sync to the mini-ME and defaulted to internal mics a bunch of times.

I hope I didn't fry anything.

The solution, of course, was to run them both unsynched, and live with the part where the channels don't line up, but that wasn't the point of the excercise. It was to run 2 digital preamps, but I don't think there is anything portable that will do that.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on August 04, 2017, 02:19:47 PM
OK.
I have a new idea.
I'm going to run the mini-ME > Microtrack II > RCA out (RCA XLR cables) > R44 In.
That way the R44 slave is still running Analog x2 but its getting the digital feed from the Mini-ME and the benefit of both ocmR44s synched up, thus 4 aligned stereo recordings.

Would that degrade the signal in any way?
What level setting would you set that incoming R44 channel to? 9am?

I think that's the solution, just a lot of extra gear and wires. But the Microtrack II and its battery is not really heavy.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 04, 2017, 03:22:57 PM
I've not used the mini-Me and it's been years since I've seen one.
Does it not have any analog out?  Digital out only?

If it does, use that and eliminate the Mircrotracker for one less A-D-A step (which may or may not be audible), less connections, cables, powering and other hassles, complication and potential failure points (the pragmatic concerns).

..But you'd probably already be doing that if it did!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: dallman on August 04, 2017, 03:32:03 PM
OK.
I have a new idea.
I'm going to run the mini-ME > Microtrack II > RCA out (RCA XLR cables) > R44 In.
That way the R44 slave is still running Analog x2 but its getting the digital feed from the Mini-ME and the benefit of both ocmR44s synched up, thus 4 aligned stereo recordings.

Would that degrade the signal in any way?
What level setting would you set that incoming R44 channel to? 9am?

I think that's the solution, just a lot of extra gear and wires. But the Microtrack II and its battery is not really heavy.

I get a headache just following all the chains, but that should work. You have the mini-ME sending the digi (SP/DIF) signal to the MT which although sending analog out through RCA, is sending what it received as a bit bucket, so the signal should be uncolored by the MT, so I'm with you on that.

2 weeks ago I blew the dust off my MT (MT24/96 or MT1 in my case) also because it was light and a the only small Bit Bucket I am aware of. I was using the MixPre 6 with a SD USB Pre 2 sending an analog signal to the 5/6 channels on the MixPre 6. I figured why not send the digi out from the USB Pre 2 into the MT which really takes up no room. I had a USB out free on my battery, so no problem there either. It worked great, but at the end of the show I had to think for a few minutes on how to stop the recording on the MT as it had been a long while since I had used it.  :bigsmile:
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 04, 2017, 03:41:49 PM
You have the mini-ME sending the digi (SP/DIF) signal to the MT which although sending analog out through RCA, is sending what it received as a bit bucket, so the signal should be uncolored by the MT

The MT's DAC and analog output stage are in the chain.  Not sure how audible that is in reality.


Analog >mini-Me (preamp input stage  and ADC) > digital S/PDIF > Microtracker (DAC and analog output stage) > analog > R44 (ACM analog input stage and ADC)

-verses-

Analog >mini-Me (preamp input stage and analog output stage [if it has that!]) > analog >[/b] R44 (ACM analog input stage and ADC)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: dallman on August 04, 2017, 04:12:01 PM
You have the mini-ME sending the digi (SP/DIF) signal to the MT which although sending analog out through RCA, is sending what it received as a bit bucket, so the signal should be uncolored by the MT

The MT's DAC and analog output stage are in the chain.  Not sure how audible that is in reality.


Analog >mini-Me (preamp input stage  and ADC) > digital S/PDIF > Microtracker (DAC and analog output stage) > analog > R44 (ACM analog input stage and ADC)

-verses-

Analog >mini-Me (preamp input stage and analog output stage [if it has that!]) > analog >[/b] R44 (ACM analog input stage and ADC)

I totally agree, but I do not think there is analog out on a mini ME
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jcable77 on August 09, 2017, 04:22:17 AM
Mini-me has a headphone out you could use?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: dallman on August 09, 2017, 12:22:31 PM
Mini-me has a headphone out you could use?
You are correct, that could be a step saving option if the quality is good. I forgot that there is a 1/8th headphone output on the back panel. Good catch!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jcable77 on August 09, 2017, 02:39:14 PM
In my experience and from what I've read here and on GS it's not a bad out. A lot of studio guys monitor pre daw with the mini- me headphone out to studio monitors.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jcable77 on August 15, 2017, 11:28:21 PM
Anybody have an issue with running an external (talentcell) battery to the point of the battery dying and the r-44 powering off, then not being able to use any fully charged external battery after that? I've seen a few issues in prior threads about external power not working on the 44's but I'm just curious if I can use aa's to go in and see if a setting changed due to the talentcell dying or if I should start shopping for rechargable aa's.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jbell on August 16, 2017, 04:49:34 AM
Sounds like the dc input is fried!  I had one fixed when I owned a r44 for $80
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on August 16, 2017, 07:15:48 PM
Mini-me has a headphone out you could use?
You are correct, that could be a step saving option if the quality is good. I forgot that there is a 1/8th headphone output on the back panel. Good catch!

Yes!
I even have a cable that will do that job!
The headphone out has a volume knob and a button for stereo and mono, so you have to be careful not to run mono. Tapping the mics will let you know right away. I did some sample taping and found that there is very little difference (to my ear) between going through the digital stage in the microtrack II and the headphone out, but the microtrack gave me more confidence, even though it ALWAYS makes me reset the sampling rate and restart to lock in a signal.

I will take some pictures of the giant mess and post them.

Thanks for advice and attention!
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on August 16, 2017, 07:19:16 PM
Sounds like the dc input is fried!  I had one fixed when I owned a r44 for $80

This!
It also happened to me. If it works with AAs, then that is likely the thing.
I got my deck modded by Doug Oade since he was fixing that, too. (Or was it the other way around?)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jcable77 on August 16, 2017, 08:58:39 PM
Eneloop's are probably the best bet then?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: achalsey on August 24, 2017, 04:41:08 PM
What wall power cord can I use with this?

A buddy is borrowing mine for an art instillation and needs it plugged into the wall.  I don't think mine came with one when I bought it.  I know it needs an inverted power source.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tgakidis on August 25, 2017, 08:26:28 AM
What wall power cord can I use with this?

A buddy is borrowing mine for an art instillation and needs it plugged into the wall.  I don't think mine came with one when I bought it.  I know it needs an inverted power source.

Roland/Edirol R-44 / 9-16v / Size M, 5.50mm OD × 2.10mm ID / Center pin (-)  Ring (+) Reverse Polarity
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 25, 2017, 09:52:23 AM
What wall power cord can I use with this?

A buddy is borrowing mine for an art instillation and needs it plugged into the wall.  I don't think mine came with one when I bought it.  I know it needs an inverted power source.

Roland/Edirol R-44 / 9-16v / Size M, 5.50mm OD × 2.10mm ID / Center pin (-)  Ring (+) Reverse Polarity

^ Important, note the somewhat unusual reversed polatiry.  Plugging in a standard non-reversed polarity external supply can fry the external power input.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: achalsey on August 25, 2017, 12:23:13 PM
Thanks.  I was looking at that list last night. (by the way, I was thinking how great that compilation is, so thank you Ted). 

But, I couldn't seem to find a 2.1 mm reverse polarity wall wart online though.  Most seemed to be 2.5 mm.  I was wondering if anyone knew of a specific one.  Or could 2.5 mm work?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: larrysellers on August 25, 2017, 12:52:14 PM
I use an old Sima power supply hat has interchangeable tips but I did have to hack it in the middle to reverse the polarity.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: achalsey on August 28, 2017, 02:17:02 PM
Well, for anyone else looking; apparently these are used mostly to power guitar petals pedals (not the flower kind) and keyboards.  Truetone makes the right power cable.  I just grabbed one from a local guitar shop.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Neilyboy on February 22, 2018, 04:23:24 PM
Sorry to bump such and old thread. I owned an R-44 9 or 10 years ago and had to sell it (had kids and gave up taping for a bit). I just re-purchased a used unit to get back in the game (was my favorite recorder I had owned back then - so easy to use I had to buy another). Anyways, I noticed when I turn mine on it says Martel on the boot splash screen vs EdirolR-44. I did the latest firmware update and now have the latest firmware. Only thing is it obviously did not change the bootloader version. Does anyone know if this can be updated? If so is there any benefit in me updating or pursuing an update? I have the latest 1.21 FW but my boot and load version are still at 1.00

Either way I am happy to be back and running my R-44.
Neil
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: zorba on March 14, 2018, 10:24:38 AM
Hello, I need a multitrack recorder with SPDIF in to record chamber music concerts. Now I'm trying the Tascam DR680 MKII but I don't like his sound, so I thinking to return the Tascam and buy an used Edirol R44.
Is the Edirol R44 a good recorder? I cannot find on Internet recordings made with this device.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: larrysellers on March 14, 2018, 10:30:41 AM
Hello, I need a multitrack recorder with SPDIF in to record chamber music concerts. Now I'm trying the Tascam DR680 MKII but I don't like his sound, so I thinking to return the Tascam and buy an used Edirol R44.
Is the Edirol R44 a good recorder? I cannot find on Internet recordings made with this device.

The R44 is a great recorder. Here are a bunch of shows recording using an R44 ---> https://archive.org/details/etree?and%5B%5D=R44
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: zorba on March 14, 2018, 10:35:20 AM
How compare to Tascam DR680MKII, which is better to record classical concerts?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 14, 2018, 10:55:38 AM
Via the SPDIF inputs the sound should be pretty much the same.

Using the analog inputs, the DR680 MKII will have lower input-stage noise than a stock R44, unless you pickup an Oade modded R-44, which is common around Taperssection.  Those mods are available in a few different "flavors" some of which are targeted at changing the tonality and overload characteristics for loud music and some of which are designed to lower the noise floor and increase transparency.

The other obvious difference is that the 680 has 6 analog inputs and can record from the SPDIF stereo input simultaneously to effectively record 8 channels total.  The R-44 is limited to 4 channels- either 4 analog in, or 2 analog + the SPDIF stereo input.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: zorba on March 14, 2018, 11:06:05 AM
Thanks, specs of Tascam seems far better compared to Edirol, but I don't like the sound of the 680MKII, to my ears it is not so pristine as I expected.
I'm listening recordings posted, is there also a classical concert or other acoustics instruments recordings on internet to understand the tone of this recorder?

I don't like also the sound of the Zoom, to high...and Sound Devices is too expensive.

EDIT:
On ebay, in Europe, I can find only standard R44, there aren't modded units, is there a lot of difference in quality?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tgakidis on March 14, 2018, 12:19:41 PM
Hello, I need a multitrack recorder with SPDIF in to record chamber music concerts. Now I'm trying the Tascam DR680 MKII but I don't like his sound, so I thinking to return the Tascam and buy an used Edirol R44.
Is the Edirol R44 a good recorder? I cannot find on Internet recordings made with this device.

The R44 is a great recorder. Here are a bunch of shows recording using an R44 ---> https://archive.org/details/etree?and%5B%5D=R44

And here is a used one for sale in excellent condition!!!  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185688.0
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: zorba on March 14, 2018, 12:25:44 PM
Thanks, but this device is standard, If I'm right.

I'll use it with a Audient Mico on the SPDIF. Buying a second external preamp will solve the noisy preamp problem? Converters with line signal are clean?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: noahbickart on March 14, 2018, 12:38:46 PM
If you are using the digital input, all recorders sound the same.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: zorba on March 14, 2018, 12:40:00 PM
If you are using the digital input, all recorders sound the same.
ok, but the other 2 (analogues) inputs?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: dogmusic on March 14, 2018, 05:36:45 PM
I'll use it with a Audient Mico on the SPDIF.

I'm not sure that you can use the Tascam DR680 SPDIF input with the Audient Mico dig out.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: tgakidis on March 14, 2018, 05:49:13 PM
I'll use it with a Audient Mico on the SPDIF.

I'm not sure that you can use the Tascam DR680 SPDIF input with the Audient Mico dig out.

This is true.  I also ran into issues with other digi out preamps, the sx-m32 comes to mind. 
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: seethreepo on March 15, 2018, 01:24:32 PM
My current battery system could use an upgrade any newish recommendations ? Some of the original options are no longer made..
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Brian G on March 15, 2018, 01:48:13 PM
I run an R-44 off of a RAV23000 which you can still get on Amazon I think.

I keep looking at ebay for the Universal DVD batteries, and have had luck in finding a few new ones for around $30 shipped.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: zorba on March 17, 2018, 10:41:49 AM
I can record via SPDIF from an Audient Mico to a Tascam DR680MKII.
(It doesn't work from the Mico to a Sony D50)
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: dogmusic on March 17, 2018, 11:14:01 AM
I can record via SPDIF from an Audient Mico to a Tascam DR680MKII.
(It doesn't work from the Mico to a Sony D50)

It also doesn't work from the Mico to a Tascam DR680MK-one. Glad to hear it works for the MK-two.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on March 18, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Finally did the upgrade to firmware 1.2.1

Now I see what the fuss was all about...the metering is much better now.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on March 18, 2018, 09:36:49 PM
Finally did the upgrade to firmware 1.2.1

Now I see what the fuss was all about...the metering is much better now.

Wait, what?  Is this a new update or the one that they did 5 years ago?  The meter zoom?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on March 19, 2018, 08:30:06 AM
Yep, missed that.  Meter zoom works great.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 19, 2018, 08:54:07 AM
Yeah, I didn't update mine until sometime last year.  The big meter screen is nice.

Could be even better if the meter range went lower (I'd make the displayed range user adjustable), and if setting/erasing markers worked while in that screen mode.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on March 21, 2018, 04:38:20 AM
Yep, missed that.  Meter zoom works great.

oh yeah, it's awesome.  love it.

i was thinking they might have done MORE zoom... which would be cool.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on March 21, 2018, 10:28:11 AM

sync'd two R-44's the other night.  when using the prerecord function, there was an instant 1.5 or 2 second difference in clocks. 

i turned the prerecord off both units and it was synced perfectly.


Since I'm into confessing my sins this snowy Spring morning, I missed this tip, too......by a few years.

Thanks justink, turning off pre-record did the trick last weekend.  :coolguy:

Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: jb63 on March 21, 2018, 06:39:31 PM
Did you use the Digital (coax) port to sync them or the 1/8” jack?
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: larrysellers on March 21, 2018, 07:30:26 PM
Yeah, Its a stereo mini labeled CONTROL SYNC.
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: capnhook on March 21, 2018, 09:34:17 PM
1/8 TRS
Title: Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
Post by: justink on March 24, 2018, 12:53:55 AM

sync'd two R-44's the other night.  when using the prerecord function, there was an instant 1.5 or 2 second difference in clocks. 

i turned the prerecord off both units and it was synced perfectly.


Since I'm into confessing my sins this snowy Spring morning, I missed this tip, too......by a few years.

Thanks justink, turning off pre-record did the trick last weekend.  :coolguy:

yeah, had me and another dude scratching our heads for a bit.  once i flipped off the pre-record, the levels matched perfectly.  glad my four year old tip could help!  lol    :cheers: