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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: ts on April 24, 2019, 05:55:50 PM

Title: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on April 24, 2019, 05:55:50 PM
Got another load of GD cassettes coming in this summer. Been experimenting with a few already and undecided on best transfer method that is available to me. Cassette deck is the only constant. Nakamichi CR5A.

This is what I have available:

1. CR5A >V3(digital out)>722
2. CR5A> V3(analog out)>722
- I’ve used both of these quite a bit over the years and have been pleased with the results.
3. CR5A>722
4. CR5A>V2>722
5. CR5A>Mix Pre 6
6. CR5A>ACM V3(digital out)>722

I’ve pretty much tried them all except the V2>722 and ACM Mod V3.

Thanks for the input.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: heathen on April 24, 2019, 05:58:37 PM
Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on April 24, 2019, 06:10:21 PM
Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Moke on April 24, 2019, 08:54:20 PM
keep it simple
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: raymonda on April 24, 2019, 10:58:06 PM
I use my V3 ACM Oade for cassette transfers at 24/96 and can not hear a difference from the source whether it is vinyl or casettes.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on April 25, 2019, 10:21:37 AM
Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?

IMO, I would use either the V3 or ACM V3 > digi > 722.  If you like the analog inputs of the 722, you could skip the V3s.

But in the end, I think you should reduce the number of analog steps as much as possible, and go for what sounds best to you.

For 99% of listeners out there (like me), there will be no difference in how it sounds.

I've been doing Nak > ACM Tascam HD-P2, and I've been very happy with the results.

Terry




Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on April 25, 2019, 11:10:45 AM
Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?

IMO, I would use either the V3 or ACM V3 > digi > 722.  If you like the analog inputs of the 722, you could skip the V3s.

But in the end, I think you should reduce the number of analog steps as much as possible, and go for what sounds best to you.

For 99% of listeners out there (like me), there will be no difference in how it sounds.

I've been doing Nak > ACM Tascam HD-P2, and I've been very happy with the results.

Terry

The V3 isn’t ACM’ed yet. I was thinking about it. Any votes on V2>722? Add a little Grace flavor to the process?
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on April 25, 2019, 01:30:02 PM
Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?

IMO, I would use either the V3 or ACM V3 > digi > 722.  If you like the analog inputs of the 722, you could skip the V3s.

But in the end, I think you should reduce the number of analog steps as much as possible, and go for what sounds best to you.

For 99% of listeners out there (like me), there will be no difference in how it sounds.

I've been doing Nak > ACM Tascam HD-P2, and I've been very happy with the results.

Terry

The V3 isn’t ACM’ed yet. I was thinking about it. Any votes on V2>722? Add a little Grace flavor to the process?

My only concern about this is having two preamp (analog) steps...

I think you can get just about the same "flavor" by using the V3 and the digital out...  Right???

Terry

Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on April 25, 2019, 03:15:16 PM
Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?

IMO, I would use either the V3 or ACM V3 > digi > 722.  If you like the analog inputs of the 722, you could skip the V3s.

But in the end, I think you should reduce the number of analog steps as much as possible, and go for what sounds best to you.

For 99% of listeners out there (like me), there will be no difference in how it sounds.

I've been doing Nak > ACM Tascam HD-P2, and I've been very happy with the results.

Terry

The V3 isn’t ACM’ed yet. I was thinking about it. Any votes on V2>722? Add a little Grace flavor to the process?

My only concern about this is having two preamp (analog) steps...

I think you can get just about the same "flavor" by using the V3 and the digital out...  Right???

Terry

True, except when going analog out of V3 or V2 I will be going line in on the 722. Nice having the line in option.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on April 25, 2019, 03:35:15 PM

True, except when going analog out of V3 or V2 I will be going line in on the 722. Nice having the line in option.

Ahh!  I didn't know that the 722 had a line-in...

Take your best tape, transfer it several different ways and then do some testing...  Pick the one you like the best and go with that... 

I think the differences we are talking about are too small to be noticeable to most people...

Terry
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on April 25, 2019, 06:16:47 PM

True, except when going analog out of V3 or V2 I will be going line in on the 722. Nice having the line in option.

Ahh!  I didn't know that the 722 had a line-in...

Take your best tape, transfer it several different ways and then do some testing...  Pick the one you like the best and go with that... 

I think the differences we are talking about are too small to be noticeable to most people...

Terry

Yea, I think all my options are pretty solid. Like I said I don’t have the ACM Mod yet and will probably end up passing on it. My V3 is pretty much sold anyway if I choose to let it go.

Basically I’m trying to put my old rig to use before I end up giving it away. The values on V2’s, 3’s and 7xx’s have pretty much shit the bed around here so if I can use this stuff in a transfer rack, why not. 
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Sevoflurane on April 25, 2019, 09:31:57 PM
Always like to hear what others do for cassette transfers.

I know my way is probably a sin. But I have always done Nak CR3A > M10. Again, not ideal. But quality difference is probably negligible.

That Tascam deck looks sick. May be the next purchase.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on April 26, 2019, 09:22:03 AM

True, except when going analog out of V3 or V2 I will be going line in on the 722. Nice having the line in option.

Ahh!  I didn't know that the 722 had a line-in...

Take your best tape, transfer it several different ways and then do some testing...  Pick the one you like the best and go with that... 

I think the differences we are talking about are too small to be noticeable to most people...

Terry

Yea, I think all my options are pretty solid. Like I said I don’t have the ACM Mod yet and will probably end up passing on it. My V3 is pretty much sold anyway if I choose to let it go.

Basically I’m trying to put my old rig to use before I end up giving it away. The values on V2’s, 3’s and 7xx’s have pretty much shit the bed around here so if I can use this stuff in a transfer rack, why not.


LOL!  My HD-P2 hasn't left the house in years...  It just sits on top of the "Transfer Stack"...

Every once in a while, I'll start wanting an ACM V3.  But then I kick myself and say, "that's why you got a ACM HD-P2!"

Terry


ETA:  https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189745.msg2294636#msg2294636
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Moke on April 26, 2019, 09:52:09 AM
prsently working on cassette transfers myself.
sometimes you open drawers, and you have completely forgotten about masters.
Marantz SD63 -> Tas DR70D 2444
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: 108Ω on April 28, 2019, 08:57:38 AM
keep it simple

+T
Archiving means not modifying
Use the most transparent means available, then tweak to your heart's content on gen2
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on April 28, 2019, 09:49:00 AM
prsently working on cassette transfers myself.
sometimes you open drawers, and you have completely forgotten about masters.
Marantz SD63 -> Tas DR70D 2444

Nice Moke! Keeping it simple. Curious though, why is the hood open on the Marantz? Azimuth adjust in there somewhere?
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Moke on April 28, 2019, 10:39:33 AM
That was me being stupid.
I'd originally set the cass. deck up on this cabinet in the music room, without thinking.  The opposite end of that cabinet has the household WiFi hub on it.
Without thinking or realizing, I attempted a transfer, and, I came up with this weird pulsing sound. My mind tried to turn it into a bad capacitor in the deck. So I opened it up, and looked for overt signs of bad caps; leaking spots, split cans, etc.. I found nothing.
I tried a second transfer, and, came up with the same noise again. WTF?
Then I realized my mistake, and, moved the deck over to another outlet, and tried again; no noise.
I took the pic before I put the lid back on.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on April 28, 2019, 05:24:53 PM
So I recently got a batch of tapes from mid 90’s up to 2002. My Nak CR5A folds every one of them. They’re all from the same source deck. Sony D5. My Nak plays anything I throw at it, any year any source, except this batch. What could be the issue? Bad storage? Bad D5? I wanted to try these tapes on the D5 that recorded them but that deck is not working and the owner does not want to repair it. Don’t know what to tell him. Would anyone be interested in trying to transfer these tapes? If it’s the Nak I’ll get it serviced, but I don’t think it is.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: 108Ω on April 28, 2019, 06:45:03 PM
^ ugh!
Dry lubricant failure on the hub guide sheets?
Stuck tape guide rollers?

(https://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/il_fullxfull.412285921_jlr8.jpg)
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on April 28, 2019, 07:44:40 PM
Found some good stuff on line for cassette repairs. I’m thinking I should have the belts replaced on the deck to.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on April 29, 2019, 09:16:55 AM
So I recently got a batch of tapes from mid 90’s up to 2002. My Nak CR5A folds every one of them. They’re all from the same source deck. Sony D5. My Nak plays anything I throw at it, any year any source, except this batch. What could be the issue? Bad storage? Bad D5? I wanted to try these tapes on the D5 that recorded them but that deck is not working and the owner does not want to repair it. Don’t know what to tell him. Would anyone be interested in trying to transfer these tapes? If it’s the Nak I’ll get it serviced, but I don’t think it is.

I assume you FF and RW each tape before transfer???

I have no idea why it would do that except the cassettes have been stored poorly???

Terry
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Moke on April 29, 2019, 09:28:48 AM
Found some good stuff on line for cassette repairs. I’m thinking I should have the belts replaced on the deck to.

While I had the lid of my deck off, I did take an alcohol soaked piece of cloth, and I cleaned the flywheel, which was kind of dirty. I also lightly rubed the belt while it was rotating with the same alc. rag, and it came up a bit cleaner as well.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on April 29, 2019, 06:49:18 PM
So I recently got a batch of tapes from mid 90’s up to 2002. My Nak CR5A folds every one of them. They’re all from the same source deck. Sony D5. My Nak plays anything I throw at it, any year any source, except this batch. What could be the issue? Bad storage? Bad D5? I wanted to try these tapes on the D5 that recorded them but that deck is not working and the owner does not want to repair it. Don’t know what to tell him. Would anyone be interested in trying to transfer these tapes? If it’s the Nak I’ll get it serviced, but I don’t think it is.

I assume you FF and RW each tape before transfer???

I have no idea why it would do that except the cassettes have been stored poorly???

Terry

Yes, I always FF and RW and then clean head and lube rollers after every couple shows. I just hope that crinkled tapes can eventually be used for transfer. I really don’t know why 40 year old tapes play and 20 year olds won’t. 👍😜

I sent the deck to Pro Dig for a check up. Last time I had it serviced was 2005. I’m sure I’ll get to the bottom of it.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Popmarter on June 07, 2019, 04:56:25 PM
From doing a lot of cassettetransfers from nakamichi machines (dragon / cr7), i think the best thing to do is make sure the unit is in excellent condition. Spins the tapes a few times, on a different machine (to avoid dirt on the Nak-machine).

Use some good and short cables to connect to the analog in from the unit that records it. Pick the unit with the 'best' A/D converter. Like said by other...keep it simple. Everything else can be done in post.

I record in 24bit/48 khz. You can go higher if space is no problem, but I really can't think of any technical reason to do so. Make sure to archive the original transfer files, so you can back in case you have to.

Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on June 07, 2019, 05:44:02 PM
I sent the deck to Paul at Prodigital. Should be getting it back soon.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Sevoflurane on June 07, 2019, 09:12:06 PM
Pick the unit with the 'best' A/D converter.

What would you consider that to be? Also, I have been looking for an external audio card for my Mac Mini for quite some time now. Any suggestions what may be good out there?
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Popmarter on June 08, 2019, 02:59:35 PM
Pick the unit with the 'best' A/D converter.

What would you consider that to be? Also, I have been looking for an external audio card for my Mac Mini for quite some time now. Any suggestions what may be good out there?

In your case most likely: Nak > 722
Again, I believe the - keep it simple -  approach with the cassettedeck being the main concern.

Then there is the Dolby yes/no debate. I prefer Dolby OFF to preserve highs. Only under excellent conditions Dolby is a benefit to some, but in our case (old tapes / different recordertype) it is not.

Second options is too archive both ways (if the master i recorded with dolby on offcourse), one with dolby on, other off.



Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on June 08, 2019, 04:36:58 PM
Pick the unit with the 'best' A/D converter.

What would you consider that to be? Also, I have been looking for an external audio card for my Mac Mini for quite some time now. Any suggestions what may be good out there?

In your case most likely: Nak > 722
Again, I believe the - keep it simple -  approach with the cassettedeck being the main concern.

Then there is the Dolby yes/no debate. I prefer Dolby OFF to preserve highs. Only under excellent conditions Dolby is a benefit to some, but in our case (old tapes / different recordertype) it is not.

Second options is too archive both ways (if the master i recorded with dolby on offcourse), one with dolby on, other off.

Whenever I get a Dolby Cassette, I do playback with and without, and get two Transfers...  I let the person who sent me the Cassette decide which they want to Seed...

Terry
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Sevoflurane on June 09, 2019, 07:58:00 AM
You connect the cassette deck via RCA > XLR? Can you do the same for a DAT deck with an optical in? This is in regards to 722.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: rigpimp on June 10, 2019, 12:46:22 AM
I used to run Nakamichi > V3 > R-44, but now just run Nakamichi > Mixpre-6
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: Sevoflurane on June 10, 2019, 04:33:12 PM
I used to run Nakamichi > V3 > R-44, but now just run Nakamichi > Mixpre-6

I'm trying to explain this without sounding dumb. But that's not going to happen... Any way to run into these recorders so that the waveform is the same as what is recorded on the media? Instead of having to adjust levels? I feel like sometimes I run it a bit hot and it sounds brickwalled, even though it's not looking that way on the WAV file.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: rigpimp on June 11, 2019, 03:12:27 AM
I'm not sure that I understand your question. 

I have done literally thousands of cassette transfers.  Shit there is a box of bluegrass tapes at my feet while I type and stacks on my desk collecting dust while I pound through my school work.  I have one of those silly black and white composition books that I use to take notes.  Side A, Side B and their corresponding Mixpre file #s.  I fill an SD card and dump it, make text files, have my historain buddy do a write up and then it all sits idel.

What part isn't going to happen?  If you are brickwalling a digital recorder you probably have your limiters on.  Set the Mixpre so the peaks tick red and you are good.  You should only adjust levels so it does come out like crap.  Anything else can be done in post.  All of mine are residing in raw FlAC'd 24/96 files waiting for some tracking angel to fall from heaven so that I can share them all on the LMA. 

This is all I have been able to upload so far:  https://archive.org/details/thespps
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: ts on June 18, 2019, 08:19:52 PM
I notice that in some transfer lineage that the cassette deck is sometimes listed as just Nakamichi (no model #) or some other random cassette deck. Usually three head decks. Since we are obviously concerned with playback only for transfers are the big dogs like the Dragon and CR7A really necessary? Aren’t the strong points of these masterpieces for recording? For transfers playback azimuth is the strongest point. Some decks there is a knob on the face, auto or take the door off.
Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: jefflester on June 18, 2019, 09:32:12 PM
For transfers playback azimuth is the strongest point. Some decks there is a knob on the face, auto or take the door off.
How many non-"Big Dog" decks have manual azimuth adjust*, much less auto? Not many. Any?
*meaning knob, not a screw

Title: Re: Cassette transfers.
Post by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on June 19, 2019, 08:59:25 AM
I used to run Nakamichi > V3 > R-44, but now just run Nakamichi > Mixpre-6

I'm trying to explain this without sounding dumb. But that's not going to happen... Any way to run into these recorders so that the waveform is the same as what is recorded on the media? Instead of having to adjust levels? I feel like sometimes I run it a bit hot and it sounds brickwalled, even though it's not looking that way on the WAV file.

Technically, you could make Test Transfers and re-adjust the input levels on your recorder until you get the same levels on your input as your output.  I'm not sure that's possible via the meters on your cassette deck vs the meters on your recorder.  I think it would take a lot of technical effort and gizmos...

Years ago, I figured out a good "working" input level on my recorder and stick with that.  If I find that I'm running hot (or not hot enough), I'll adjust and start the Tape over... 

But yeah, when going analog to digital, there's no way to do a "perfect" transfer...  Its the nature of the analog beast...

Terry