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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: 108Ω on November 08, 2020, 06:57:19 AM

Title: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: 108Ω on November 08, 2020, 06:57:19 AM
Just going through my notes on some recordings that I did not like and share.

1. House concert, patio door
2. Concert in old auction hall, wall of windows
3. Small bar room performance, barman tossing bottle empties into wastebin

Glass, it seems, is the archenemy of the taperman.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: EmRR on November 08, 2020, 10:05:32 AM
Highly reflective for treble. 
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: rocksuitcase on November 08, 2020, 11:21:08 AM
I would allow this, but submit unseen during setup circulating fans above cash registers as number 2    >:D
The sound of bottles going into trashcans is ever present on any Festival recording.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: aaronji on November 08, 2020, 11:29:55 AM
I also hate those reusable thick plastic cups that PONG, PONG, PONG across the concrete floor. I guess the disposable ones aren't much better once they carpet the floor with a nice crunchy layer... 
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: DSatz on November 08, 2020, 02:04:45 PM
From the world of classical concert recording: The person who wants to show off his expertise and his oh, so passionate feeling by starting to applaud demonstratively while the last note of a piece is still dying out.

What I wish I could convince such people of: Yes, some members of the audience don't know the piece as well as you do. In that case we should be especially happy and grateful that they've come to the concert and are listening, no? They may be legitimately unsure whether the piece has ended or not. That uncertainty is part of listening with an open mind, which should be treated as sacred. Don't use it as an opportunity to call attention to yourself.

And since I'm recording the concert, I resent what you've done because now every time someone listens to the recording, they will hear your egotistical display, and it will take them out of the moment that they're in, time after time.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: carpa on November 08, 2020, 03:06:31 PM
@Dsatz: you're absolutely right. Also from a performer's point of you I have to say that probably the most thrilling moment, both for who plays and for who sits in the audience, is that second or two after the last note, before someone applaudes. Just to let the music go back to the silence from which it came.
As a listener I always wait a little bit before applauding; when I'm not so stroke by a performance I just wait because I think the performer will appreciate this. When something magic happens, I just couldn't move my hands for a while and "silence" is my first impulse.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: perks on November 08, 2020, 07:31:49 PM
That uncertainty is part of listening with an open mind, which should be treated as sacred. Don't use it as an opportunity to call attention to yourself.

I know this feeling too well. Yes the people who need to lead the audience in clapping makes for noisy recordings that make me cringe when listening on playback. As much as I frown on fellow audience members who want to signal to the room they know the song is about to end I also struggle with people who need to clap at every tempo change and/or people who need to clap after every single solo no matter how pedestrian or inconsequential to the performance. For example when a jazz quintet alternates solos among the 5 players and they may possibly run through their lineup twice during a song. That gives the over enthusiastic clapper 10 opportunities during that one particular song to smash their hands together. By the end of a set this clapper will have interrupted the listening experience way too many times. Its as if they do not understand all solos are not created equally and there is no need to signal approval to the soloist every time they step out to perform their part. Save the post solo clapping for the times when its truly warranted.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: morst on November 08, 2020, 07:46:42 PM
perhaps if their parents had paid more attention to them?
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: jerryfreak on November 08, 2020, 07:47:22 PM
That uncertainty is part of listening with an open mind, which should be treated as sacred. Don't use it as an opportunity to call attention to yourself.

I know this feeling too well. Yes the people who need to lead the audience in clapping makes for noisy recordings

and then there are the woo-hooers
and the people who clap extra loud
and the people who try to impress with their loud whistling ability

all sociopaths, in my book ;)
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: 108Ω on November 09, 2020, 02:37:37 AM
Leaving air at the coda, before applauding is pure joy for some pieces.
Others demand the television branded enthusiasm of immediate audience roar... like kids at a Disney concert.
But the worst, absolute worst, is the applause before the piece is over.

Someone used to mess with the audience by playing after the applause started... was it David Bromberg?
Some got the joke, others were embarrassed, confused...
I remember a performer... Bela Fleck? who after the applause said, actually there's more... and played the rest of the piece.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: morst on November 09, 2020, 10:49:53 AM

and then there are the woo-hooers
and the people who clap extra loud
and the people who try to impress with their loud whistling ability

all sociopaths, in my book ;)
TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE!
 :smash: :smash: :smash:
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: Gutbucket on November 09, 2020, 03:00:29 PM
^ And other tapers, it would seem (re: The True Enemy of The Taper)


The poignancy of the pregnant silent pause is commonly expressed across many cultures as some variant of "an angel passes over".

Un ange passe in French. In German- Ein engel flog durchs zimmer  (an angel flew across the room) – as collected by folklorist Reinhold Köhler in 1865. Jacob Grimm observed earlier, “If among a group of people there is suddenly a silence, it is said that an angel has passed through, or an angel is passing through, its sublime appearance silencing worldly noise.”

And this from F. Marion Crawford's A Tale of Modern India- "There are times when silence seems to be sacred, even unaccountably so. A feeling is in us that to speak would be almost a sacrilege, though we are unable to account in any way for the pause. At such moments every one seems instinctively to feel the same influence, and the first person who breaks the spell either experiences a sensation of awkwardness and says something very foolish, or, conscious of the odds against him, delivers himself of a sentiment of ponderous severity and sententiousness…"

I've known a close friend to whisper "Tedewapan" (< my 100% phonetic misspelling) silently to herself upon those moments, which I was told is form some Asian or Native American culture, meaning "spirit passes over" and expressing essentially the same.

By whatever name, the fragile lingering silence at the end of a performance is a magical thing, and almost a performance in itself - one that completely dissolves the 4th wall.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: rocksuitcase on November 10, 2020, 05:10:03 AM
Quote
Miles Davis - "It's not the notes you play, it's the notes you don't play."

Miles Davis - "Don't play what's there, play what's not there."
I have seen Bela Fleck do the same thing. AT a Chris Thiele/Bela show a few years ago they each commented on the silences.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: jerryfreak on November 10, 2020, 06:26:01 AM
Due to it's large size, the tapir has few natural predators in it's environment but it is known to be prey upon by wild cats such as tigers, jaguars and cougars along with large reptiles like crocodiles and even the odd snake
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: botz on November 10, 2020, 10:17:16 AM
Friend Of Brad

Some dudebro wearing a backwards upside-down visor, two rows in front of you, and his friend Brad is a dozen rows behind you,.....and Friend Of Brad is trying to get his attention.   ".....Brad!!!.........YO BRAD!!!!.............HEY....BRAD!!!!!!!!!"
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: voltronic on November 10, 2020, 08:12:06 PM
From the world of classical concert recording: The person who wants to show off his expertise and his oh, so passionate feeling by starting to applaud demonstratively while the last note of a piece is still dying out.

What I wish I could convince such people of: Yes, some members of the audience don't know the piece as well as you do. In that case we should be especially happy and grateful that they've come to the concert and are listening, no? They may be legitimately unsure whether the piece has ended or not. That uncertainty is part of listening with an open mind, which should be treated as sacred. Don't use it as an opportunity to call attention to yourself.

And since I'm recording the concert, I resent what you've done because now every time someone listens to the recording, they will hear your egotistical display, and it will take them out of the moment that they're in, time after time.

I am with you on all the above.  I have always tried to teach my students why this is never acceptable, starting with never applauding before the end of the National Anthem, one of my pet peeves.  When did this become a thing anyway?  Actually you're not supposed to applaud for the Anthem in the first place, but that's another story.

The other one that makes me furious is camera shutter noise, especially if it is from a professional photographer.  They always seem to be shooting in the most sensitive soft sections of the music.  I find myself seriously contemplating murder when this happens.  Like the behavior DSatz describes, this ruins the experience for both the live audience and also the recording.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: morst on November 11, 2020, 03:52:17 PM
The other one that makes me furious is camera shutter noise, especially if it is from a professional photographer.
Or the insidious amateur beep!
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: perks on November 11, 2020, 04:08:07 PM
The other one that makes me furious is camera shutter noise, especially if it is from a professional photographer.
Or the insidious amateur beep!

I think the worst is people who have a shutter noise sound effect on their camera phone. PLEASE flip the switch to sound off.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: aaronji on November 11, 2020, 05:18:24 PM
^ I was recording The Bad Plus at North Sea Jazz a number of years ago, with body-worn 4060s, and a photographer actually started using my shoulder to support his lens. I could clearly hear the shutters, so I knew the DPAs could too. I quickly made it pretty obvious that this would not fly, so he moved on, but if you listen carefully to the recording it is audible.

With respect to the moment of silence at the end of a song, I agree that it can be really magical. Sometimes, just the decay of the last cymbal strike or strings. It's a shame that a lot of the time this gets crushed by raucous applause...
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: tim in jersey on November 11, 2020, 05:38:57 PM
^ I was recording The Bad Plus at North Sea Jazz a number of years ago, with body-worn 4060s, and a photographer actually started using my shoulder to support his lens. I could clearly hear the shutters, so I knew the DPAs could too. I quickly made it pretty obvious that this would not fly, so he moved on, but if you listen carefully to the recording it is audible.

With respect to the moment of silence at the end of a song, I agree that it can be really magical. Sometimes, just the decay of the last cymbal strike or strings. It's a shame that a lot of the time this gets crushed by raucous applause...

Funny you should mention The Bad Plus. I have 2 recordings I made in Princeton, NJ with one of the best behaved audiences ever.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9ppo8yk9la7kipa/AACTlt4QIoD8XKFEE9tyap8Za?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uj9zkm2ydlblmx2/AABrso_20vlXetlDf9kO-abqa?dl=0
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: tim in jersey on November 11, 2020, 05:40:42 PM
Easily my 2 best stealth tapes ever.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: tim in jersey on November 11, 2020, 05:43:30 PM
Interested in critiques, comments, etc.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: Gutbucket on November 11, 2020, 06:00:22 PM
I could clearly hear the shutters, so I knew the DPAs could too.

The bane of smaller scale acoustic musical events!

Have had this happen so often with small ensemble jazz, chamber music, Indian classical, new composition modern stuff, etc. - the kind of stuff performed to smaller audiences of folks totally into the music and quiet as church mice.  The damn camera shutter almost drowns out the music in the delicate parts.. and is always out of synchrony with the rhythm of the music.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: aaronji on November 11, 2020, 06:50:20 PM
Funny you should mention The Bad Plus. I have 2 recordings I made in Princeton, NJ with one of the best behaved audiences ever.

I actually think that was my last stealth of The Bad Plus. I have recorded them open many times since. I guess I would classify them as "semi-open"; they will let you record, but they are pretty ambivalent about sharing. My last recording, from November 2019, turned out really well. I don't want to bite the proverbial hand that fed me, though, so only a very few have ever heard it.

Audiences over here, or at least in Northern Europe, tend to be more respectful than in the States. Also, many bands that would draw a big crowd in the US are less well-known here. Those two factors have enabled me to take some pretty decent recordings that would have been essentially impossible back home.

Anyway, I am curious to hear your tapes! Maybe on the train to work tomorrow...

The damn camera shutter almost drowns out the music in the delicate parts.. and is always out of synchrony with the rhythm of the music.

Absolutely! They also snap off 10 or 15 shots at a time, so it is this rapid staccato "click-click-click" that is irritating as hell.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: audBall on November 11, 2020, 07:34:03 PM
The other one that makes me furious is camera shutter noise, especially if it is from a professional photographer.  They always seem to be shooting in the most sensitive soft sections of the music. I find myself seriously contemplating murder when this happens. 

Given the generally calm and collected nature of your posts on this forum, I had a good chuckle at this comment.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: jerryfreak on November 11, 2020, 08:01:34 PM
The other one that makes me furious is camera shutter noise, especially if it is from a professional photographer.  They always seem to be shooting in the most sensitive soft sections of the music. I find myself seriously contemplating murder when this happens. 

Given the generally calm and collected nature of your posts on this forum, I had a good chuckle at this comment.

EVERYBODY DUCK THE TAPER HAS A SHOTGUN
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: tim in jersey on November 11, 2020, 08:54:37 PM
I have a bunch, not including the AKG mics.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: voltronic on November 11, 2020, 08:56:13 PM
The other one that makes me furious is camera shutter noise, especially if it is from a professional photographer.  They always seem to be shooting in the most sensitive soft sections of the music. I find myself seriously contemplating murder when this happens. 

Given the generally calm and collected nature of your posts on this forum, I had a good chuckle at this comment.

EVERYBODY DUCK THE TAPER HAS A SHOTGUN

The lacrosse stick bag I use to carry my Manfrotto 1004 stand is about 4 inches too short to fit my old 870 Wingmaster.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: rocksuitcase on November 11, 2020, 10:58:05 PM
The other one that makes me furious is camera shutter noise, especially if it is from a professional photographer.  They always seem to be shooting in the most sensitive soft sections of the music. I find myself seriously contemplating murder when this happens. 

Given the generally calm and collected nature of your posts on this forum, I had a good chuckle at this comment.

EVERYBODY DUCK THE TAPER HAS A SHOTGUN

The lacrosse stick bag I use to carry my Manfrotto 1004 stand is about 4 inches too short to fit my old 870 Wingmaster.
True Story- NYE 1998, Chicago, Aragon Ballroom, Blues Traveler was playing a 2 night run with Leftover Salmon. We decided to go high class and stayed at the Four Seasons (ya, but NOT the landscaping one). On our luggage cart we had slung the classic extra large mic stand bag with a huge logo on it, (LIGHTSTAND or some such), carrying it into the elevator we got stopped by security, but not uniformed, plain clothed. I assumed they saw us from the cameras and came to inquire. It was a good timing event though, as when we were ripped out of our minds the next night on NYE carrying the stands back to the room no one hassled us! 
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: Gutbucket on November 12, 2020, 10:32:41 AM
Funny you should mention The Bad Plus. I have 2 recordings I made in Princeton, NJ with one of the best behaved audiences ever.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9ppo8yk9la7kipa/AACTlt4QIoD8XKFEE9tyap8Za?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uj9zkm2ydlblmx2/AABrso_20vlXetlDf9kO-abqa?dl=0

[...]
Interested in critiques, comments, etc.

Thanks Tim!
Just pulled up 2013-12-13 and it's sounding very nice here.

Love the audience chuckles during Reid's banter, their enthusiasm between numbers and their occasional brief emphatic reactions in the sweetest parts of the performance, while otherwise staying out of the way of the performance- all the stuff that totally hinges on having a good audience around you, and the stuff that really makes a true audience-perspective recording something special in my way of thinking.  I suppose beyond it's translation through the recording, it is a critical element of what makes the live experience itself so magical.  That, in combination with the good balance between direct-clarity and reverberant room sound from your well-chosen location has me feeling transported to your seat in McCarter Theater, on that evening in mid December, with my attention drawn more strongly to the performance and all the details of the environment than to any specific technical details of the recording - which is the true formula for a recording win as far as I'm concerned.  Congratulations.  Looking forward to giving these a full listen with a friend over weekend.

You breathing in the quietest bits at the start or the guy to your right?  Not a complaint and not overly objectionable, I cease to notice it at all after the first couple..
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: BonoBeats on November 12, 2020, 02:32:31 PM
I submit this guy for the "non-classical" category.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXvibz1l131/
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: morst on November 13, 2020, 01:53:08 PM
Interested in critiques, comments, etc.
They are asymmetrical!


The Bad Plus, that is.
Your recordings sound accurate. :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Plus
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/The_Bad_Plus-2.jpg/266px-The_Bad_Plus-2.jpg)
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: tim in jersey on November 13, 2020, 03:37:10 PM
Funny you should mention The Bad Plus. I have 2 recordings I made in Princeton, NJ with one of the best behaved audiences ever.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9ppo8yk9la7kipa/AACTlt4QIoD8XKFEE9tyap8Za?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uj9zkm2ydlblmx2/AABrso_20vlXetlDf9kO-abqa?dl=0

[...]
Interested in critiques, comments, etc.

Thanks Tim!
Just pulled up 2013-12-13 and it's sounding very nice here.

Love the audience chuckles during Reid's banter, their enthusiasm between numbers and their occasional brief emphatic reactions in the sweetest parts of the performance, while otherwise staying out of the way of the performance- all the stuff that totally hinges on having a good audience around you, and the stuff that really makes a true audience-perspective recording something special in my way of thinking.  I suppose beyond it's translation through the recording, it is a critical element of what makes the live experience itself so magical.  That, in combination with the good balance between direct-clarity and reverberant room sound from your well-chosen location has me feeling transported to your seat in McCarter Theater, on that evening in mid December, with my attention drawn more strongly to the performance and all the details of the environment than to any specific technical details of the recording - which is the true formula for a recording win as far as I'm concerned.  Congratulations.  Looking forward to giving these a full listen with a friend over weekend.

You breathing in the quietest bits at the start or the guy to your right?  Not a complaint and not overly objectionable, I cease to notice it at all after the first couple..

Thanks for taking the time to listen and comment.

The breathing is me. At the time I had a deviated septum and didn't realize it. I have since had a septoplasty to correct it.

Besides breathing a bajillion times better, I also had the added benefits of food tasting better and a slight but noticeable improvement in my hearing after the inflammation went down. I guess with the ol' sniffer working the way it is supposed to (eustacian tubes draining properly, etc.) that might could be the reason why.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: Gutbucket on November 13, 2020, 05:28:10 PM
I've made plenty of recordings myself where a biathlon-like skill of hustling in, getting situated and rolling, then quickly switching to fully quieting oneself (rapidly slowing breath and all movement) just as the performance begins becomes an important but little discussed stealth taper skill.

Depending on the situation, when in, set, and seated early, sometimes I'll go into semi-obvious-meditation mode, which besides being a good centering quiet-prep and an interesting performance hall listening experience in itself, serves to keep folks who stroll in late and sit adjacent from striking up a conversation that inevitably rolls over the starting announcements and musician tuning, and also seems to encourage a more serious listening mindset in them much of the time. "Hmmm this guy sitting next to me seems to be rather seriously preparing to listen to this program".  Yet another Jedi-stealth influence angle.   ;)
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: tim in jersey on November 13, 2020, 07:25:33 PM
I've made plenty of recordings myself where a biathlon-like skill of hustling in, getting situated and rolling, then quickly switching to fully quieting oneself (rapidly slowing breath and all movement) just as the performance begins becomes an important but little discussed stealth taper skill.

Depending on the situation, when in, set, and seated early, sometimes I'll go into semi-obvious-meditation mode, which besides being a good centering quiet-prep and an interesting performance hall listening experience in itself, serves to keep folks who stroll in late and sit adjacent from striking up a conversation that inevitably rolls over the starting announcements and musician tuning, and also seems to encourage a more serious listening mindset in them much of the time. "Hmmm this guy sitting next to me seems to be rather seriously preparing to listen to this program".  Yet another Jedi-stealth influence angle.   ;)

If you mean taking a quick snooze after fighting traffic in a mad rush to get back home on both the PA and NJ Turnpike, after a shitty 2+ hour commute and scrambling to get parking, in the venue before tunes start, and set up in time then yeah, I relate.

Fortunately, I've learned to deploy both my 2 channel >:D rig and my open rig in reserved seating shows in about a minute. But the taper anxiety is still real when trying to to juggle work/play schedules for shows during the work week, especially when non-tapers want to try to ride along with me.

I can usually get my 4 chan. rig hooked up in to SBD (plus my Henry PatchBox for other tapers that just want the SBD) and AUD mics in about 5 minutes or less @ venues where I know the FOH/promoters etc. Most gigs I do anymore the FOH already has XLR tails ready for me. 20+ years of taping and building relationships w/ venues pays off...
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: heathen on November 14, 2020, 10:22:36 AM
The lacrosse stick bag I use to carry my Manfrotto 1004 stand is about 4 inches too short to fit my old 870 Wingmaster.

(https://i.imgur.com/kHxO1Je.jpg)
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: guitard on November 14, 2020, 10:52:37 AM
I think the worst is people who have a shutter noise sound effect on their camera phone. PLEASE flip the switch to sound off.

Side note:  You can't shut off the shutter for smart phones sold in Korea (where I've lived for many years).  Among other reasons, it's too make it harder for pervs to do up-skirt pics on the subway.

https://eoto.tech/camera-shutter-sound/

in Korea, the government itself set a recommendation in 2004 to have phones always make a sound louder than 65 decibels when a photo is taken. This was also done to curb spy shots and boost privacy.

Fortunately for me, yesterday I swapped out the iPhone 7 Plus that I bought in Korea five years ago with an iPhone 12 Pro Max -- so now there's no more shutter sound.
Title: Re: The True Enemy of The Taper
Post by: jerryfreak on November 14, 2020, 03:10:04 PM
i think the true enemy of the taper is too many options

always some sexy new product you simply have to have despite your old stuff being perfectly adequate