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Gear / Technical Help => Post-Processing, Computer / Streaming / Internet Devices & Related Activity => Topic started by: bluntforcetrauma on February 17, 2008, 01:44:57 AM

Title: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: bluntforcetrauma on February 17, 2008, 01:44:57 AM
hello, did a show, and i looked at the files and they came back a little hot.  I see a couple of hot points.  AGain just in some spots not the entire recording.  Can i go in and "scrub" some of the high points so that i DONT have 0.0 db.  I can not normalize due to the 0.0 db.  can i do something about this
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: Gordon on February 17, 2008, 02:05:24 AM
during these "hot spots" can you hear anything bad??  if not fuck it.
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: setboy on February 17, 2008, 03:46:50 AM
during these "hot spots" can you hear anything bad??  if not fuck it.

what he said.


why do you need to normalize it if you have hot spots in it?
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: j5brock on February 17, 2008, 10:03:40 AM
If you feel like the rest of the show needs some boost - then use a volume envelope to bring the volume up on the other tracks.

Jeff
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: bluntforcetrauma on February 17, 2008, 10:10:53 AM
If you feel like the rest of the show needs some boost - then use a volume envelope to bring the volume up on the other tracks.

Jeff

i have heard of the volume envelope--how do i use it?  please help me

I would like to boost the rest of the show but due to a few hot spikes, like a few high notes, I would like to bring the volume up,

do i need to use the volume envelope on the ENTIRE file or just after splitting tracks and done to each song?
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: setboy on February 17, 2008, 12:00:29 PM
If you feel like the rest of the show needs some boost - then use a volume envelope to bring the volume up on the other tracks.

Jeff

i have heard of the volume envelope--how do i use it?  please help me

I would like to boost the rest of the show but due to a few hot spikes, like a few high notes, I would like to bring the volume up,

do i need to use the volume envelope on the ENTIRE file or just after splitting tracks and done to each song?


If you do it after you split it, you will need to make sure you have no SBE's before you seed it.
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: bluntforcetrauma on February 17, 2008, 03:20:33 PM
so will the volume envelope be a good solution to normalizing since i have gotten a few hot spots?

most of the recording is well within limits, just a few loud bursts of music.

so i should use the volume envelope for the times in between to bring up the lower music, like normalizing but just to bring up the lower ends

then i would track split and SBE


please advise




Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: setboy on February 17, 2008, 03:24:12 PM
so will the volume envelope be a good solution to normalizing since i have gotten a few hot spots?

most of the recording is well within limits, just a few loud bursts of music.

so i should use the volume envelope for the times in between to bring up the lower music, like normalizing but just to bring up the lower ends

then i would track split and SBE


please advise







can anyone help him out? i Don't know about this. :P
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: j5brock on February 18, 2008, 10:05:20 AM
What software are you using. I don't believe audacity has a volume envelope tool. I just switched to Samplitude and love the volume envelope tool. Being a non-DAW kind of guy - the learning curve is steeper than audacity - but I think the additional tools and ability to work in VIP was worth the change.

Jeff
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: Brian Skalinder on February 18, 2008, 10:06:42 AM
I don't believe audacity has a volume envelope tool. I just switched to Samplitude and love the volume envelope tool. Being a non-DAW kind of guy - the learning curve is steeper than audacity - but I think the additional tools and ability to work in VIP was worth the change.

Audacity has an envelope tool.  Same feelings here about SAM.
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: bluntforcetrauma on February 18, 2008, 10:53:06 AM
i have a gain envelope in PEAK pro I see it but i dont really know how to use it.  When i select the gain envelope it brings up the file and i can by using the cursor increase or decrease the " bar" that goes across the entire WAV file, so its like a bar with points on each end of the WAV file then i can use the cursor to move the point up or down, increase or decrease the gain, but i dont understand the relating percentages and numbers they give you along with changing the gain.  It appears the gain envelope i have you change the entire file, not just one song or smaller section. And it always seems taht no matter how i change the gain i still get some  bleed through increase in the higher ends--in which i dont need it there, i just wanted to bring up some of the lower parts to bring them up to some of the hot spots as to bring the entire show up to a volume boost just short of course from being total HOT.  It look like normalization which brings up the entire WAV to the highest point i recorded.  But since i have some 0.0db spots i can normalize, so i thought the gain envelope to get me gain around the hot spots to bring the total sound up.

does that make any possible sense

i am not good at this

I can " press" record, and " stop" thats about it, the rest is by the seat of my pants.

Plug ins  i use BBE max, and waves L3 ultramaximizer

thanks
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: Brian Skalinder on February 18, 2008, 11:15:20 AM
It appears the gain envelope i have you change the entire file, not just one song or smaller section.

I can't speak to the other configs, but if it's an envelope tool, it should allow you to place different points on the envelope line, and then drag each individual point up or down, while leaving the main line as is.  Adjusting the volume of a point that resides between two other points will adjust the curve/slope of line between the point you're moving and the points to its left and right, if that makes sense).  See pic for an example.  Each yellow box/dot is a different point on the curve, and you can use as many, or as few, points as you wish to define the down/up slope/curve of the envelope.
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: bluntforcetrauma on February 18, 2008, 12:36:49 PM
It appears the gain envelope i have you change the entire file, not just one song or smaller section.

I can't speak to the other configs, but if it's an envelope tool, it should allow you to place different points on the envelope line, and then drag each individual point up or down, while leaving the main line as is.  Adjusting the volume of a point that resides between two other points will adjust the curve/slope of line between the point you're moving and the points to its left and right, if that makes sense).  See pic for an example.  Each yellow box/dot is a different point on the curve, and you can use as many, or as few, points as you wish to define the down/up slope of the envelope.


yes, i can use many individual points, i have done that and i thought I was messing things up with all these seesaw looking lines with dots at the end.  LIke connect the dots?

Absolutely I am so grateful and appreciative of the responses you guys, it is overwhelmingly helpful and for you all to take the time out to see me through this is surely speaks volume to your character

My gain envelope window seems to be small, as compared to the entire WAV file that i am trying to alter.  Meaning that its sometimes hard to pick out the spots due to the gain envelope being small ( its like a smaller version of the WAV file that is being addressed) as compared to the WAV file that is the size of a regular template opening document. It looks like a smaller window.


Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: JWard on February 18, 2008, 06:55:12 PM
Depending on how many significantly louder peaks you have and how loud the vast majority of the peaks in the recording are relative to the loudest peaks you have a couple more options. 

You can use a pencil tool and redraw some of the peaks; this is tricky and if there's lots of them it can get tiresome. 

You can also apply some LIGHT compression to bring the occasional loud peaks down into the range of the rest of the peaks.  You have to set the threshold so it doesn't touch the majority of the recording, but only the highest peaks.  You will also have to play with the attack/release some to get it right and keep the compression inaudible.

Either way, the goal would be to bring the peaks down into the range of everything else, or significantly closer, but keep the changes inaudible.  If done right, you can bring those peaks down, give yourself some headroom for normalization, and not create any loudness differences from song to song or affect the dynamic range of the performance. 
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: bluntforcetrauma on February 19, 2008, 10:51:21 AM
Depending on how many significantly louder peaks you have and how loud the vast majority of the peaks in the recording are relative to the loudest peaks you have a couple more options. 

You can use a pencil tool and redraw some of the peaks; this is tricky and if there's lots of them it can get tiresome. 

You can also apply some LIGHT compression to bring the occasional loud peaks down into the range of the rest of the peaks.  You have to set the threshold so it doesn't touch the majority of the recording, but only the highest peaks.  You will also have to play with the attack/release some to get it right and keep the compression inaudible.

Either way, the goal would be to bring the peaks down into the range of everything else, or significantly closer, but keep the changes inaudible.  If done right, you can bring those peaks down, give yourself some headroom for normalization, and not create any loudness differences from song to song or affect the dynamic range of the performance. 


a thousand thank you's.  Yes I have been fiddling with the pencil tool, I hope not to take out to much of the peak because i think it might cause static, but i just try to bring it down a little with the pencil tool, enought to lower the overall db level so i can normalize and add volume without distortion.

Again thanks a ton for the information it is very much appreciated and this community just rocks.  Everyone has been so considerate with time to answer the question
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: beatkilla on February 20, 2008, 10:41:34 AM
Music is all about dynamics,why would anyone use the Normalize function.
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: Brian Skalinder on February 20, 2008, 12:41:19 PM
Music is all about dynamics,why would anyone use the Normalize function.

While RMS normalization may reduce dynamic range, peak normalization doesn't.  Most apps I've used - including Audacity - employ peak normalization.

There's a fairly strong bias on TS against reduction of dynamic range.  Reducing dynamic range isn't always a bad thing.  For example, if one only has a couple (or a whole slew) of very high peaks from a particularly loud "whoop" or clap by the crowd, then reducing the peaks (whether with compression or volume envelope) doesn't take away from the dynamics of the music itself.  Or if one's running on stage and there's an especially loud drum kit hit (or multiple hits scattered throughout the recording) that spikes levels, bringing it down in line with the rest of the recording doesn't really take away from the general dynamic range of the performance since those spikes are outliers, to so speak.  Or if one's primary listening device or environment isn't suitable for full dynamic range, reducing the dynamic range can make for easier / better listening with that device or in that environment.  Etc.
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: bluntforcetrauma on February 22, 2008, 12:49:11 AM
Music is all about dynamics,why would anyone use the Normalize function.

While RMS normalization may reduce dynamic range, peak normalization doesn't.  Most apps I've used - including Audacity - employ peak normalization.

There's a fairly strong bias on TS against reduction of dynamic range.  Reducing dynamic range isn't always a bad thing.  For example, if one only has a couple (or a whole slew) of very high peaks from a particularly loud "whoop" or clap by the crowd, then reducing the peaks (whether with compression or volume envelope) doesn't take away from the dynamics of the music itself.  Or if one's running on stage and there's an especially loud drum kit hit (or multiple hits scattered throughout the recording) that spikes levels, bringing it down in line with the rest of the recording doesn't really take away from the general dynamic range of the performance since those spikes are outliers, to so speak.  Or if one's primary listening device or environment isn't suitable for full dynamic range, reducing the dynamic range can make for easier / better listening with that device or in that environment.  Etc.

so is there a chance that i should try NOT to normalize, but still use something like L3 ultramaximizer to shape the sound?

yes sometimes its just a couple of peaks, hot spots, so i did not normalize that particular set, but did put it through the L3--it came out very well.

I thought i should always normalize to bring up the rest of the music, i thought it gave a kind of boost without losing any dynamics

I am medium at this ( not new) so any more info on normalizing would be helpful.


I know if i were to normalize, that is done first in the process. I usually normalize to 97% to leave a little headroom

what do others feel about normalizing.

And yes i do try to get the highest recording levels as possible during a show, but even so it does seem overall a distant recording without being able to at a plug in like L3 ultramaximzer.

sorry for the randomness of thoughts

please advise
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: anr on February 22, 2008, 02:59:43 AM
I'd go with Brian's advice.  It's simple, concise, makes sense and is a no-brainer. 
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: JWard on February 22, 2008, 12:53:00 PM
I'm with Brian, too.

Here's my philosophy:
With a perfect mix in the room, perfectly placed and perfectly configured microphones, and perfectly set levels on your microphone preamplifier, no EQ, compression, normalization, etc will be needed (or at least very very little).  However, this is almost never the case...  Although we can set up our microphones and make a recording of exactly what it sounds like where those mics are sitting, that recording may not be a great representation of the music that was played.  The microphones may be placed in a location where the sound isn't great (at the back), where there are vast differences between the sound levels of different instruments (drums and keys at the stage lip), where there is something being recorded in addition to the music (drunk loudmouths, loud clappers, loud talkers, A/C vent, fans), or where the sound and mix is simply different than what you are hearing (sound engineers create the mix in the room to be listened to at head level, not 15 feet in the air...the lack of all those heads disrupting, diffusing, and absorbing certain frequencies means the mix and sound is different 15 feet up than it is at head level...sometimes better, sometimes worse, but almost always different in some way).

A recording made in the live environment may be a great, or even perfect representation of what it sounded like in the location that the recording was made, but that may or may not make for a great representation of the music was played and how it should be heard.  And this is where we often find ourselves wondering how much post-production we should do to a recording.  This is a personal choice, and I don't think you should do anything where the result is overly noticeable, but I'll accept some post-production on a recording if it improves the listening experience without killing the music.  That's the trick.  I don't see this as being that far from mixing AUD and SBD, or multitracking....nowhere in the room did a live show sound like the results of an AUD+SBD mix, but we make such recordings all the time and when done well we like the results because of the improved listening experience, without killing the live feeling of the recording.
Title: Re: A couple of hot spots during a recording got 0.0 db can it be saved
Post by: Ben Turnbull on February 24, 2008, 05:30:55 PM
One thing that I don't seem to have seen in this discussion of "hot spots" is the concept of clipping.  In Audition/CEP, as I'm sure in other apps, there are clip repair tools.  When my dynamics range from -45db to < 0, and if it's drum related (almost always setting up 6' from the kit :P ) I've had good luck with this method:

1. Mark / the offending section

2. Set the clip tool to -2 to -9 db attenuation with 1% head room.  This may take some experimentation/experience to determine the least amount to attenuate for a given clip event.  (One thing you'll see immediately is where the worst offending clips are located.)

3. Next apply the hard limit tool by setting the boost level by the opposite sign of the attenuation used to repair the clip.  Set a limit of -0.6db if you feel like maximizing the head room available.
   (This will raise the whole selection back up to where it was but will keep the "hot spots/clipped points from exceeding the limit.)

If for some reason there is mass clipping and the need to salvage the work is critical, as opposed to F'k it, I'll do better next time... Convert the file to 32bit before doing any major clip repair.

One comment was to not worry about it if they are small "overs" and this is prolly good advice.  I seriously doubt that a small spike from a drum shot that exceeds 0db could be detected by the ear from one that had similar wave characteristics save for not going over.  The thing about clipping is the duration of the gap or that flat 0db run.  That can be heard.  I've not delved deep enough into it to know what that time gap is in practice, but perhaps someone could add that bit of insight... it might save me a lot of anal editing in the future! :P

This works for me...