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Author Topic: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)  (Read 28855 times)

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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2008, 02:04:28 PM »
well of course it doesnt include the preamp, neither does a CMC6. lets talk apples to apples here.

i was going to sink the power circuit in some epoxy with mini-xlrs on each end, still well under $20 in parts

As simple as that is, i'd be willing to build a handful of them for TS'ers for cost of parts.

if you need a pre anyway, sure, talk to chris, im sure the powering circuit will only add a nominal cost (if any, compared to a 3-wire pre) once he gets it figured out.

Again, apples to apples, compare the wide variety of cheap pres out there compared to something tha tprovides phantom power for a cmc6, that usually start at $400 and go way up from there.

BTW, i emailed the DPA circuit to bernhard and asked if something similar could be done with the CMR's.

I'm guessing it wouldnt like the 48V on the signal wire, but we'll see what he says

http://simplefuels.com/CMR.jpg

resistor- $99 cents/ 5 pack
capacitor- $1.50
9V battery - $3.00

doesnt sound like hundreds to me.

plus a powering solution. that'll probably run you at least another $100-$200
you just going to slap those resistors together with the battery and leave them hanging in your gear bag? or or you going to build a box to house it all. how are you going to connect it to the cmr cables? what connectors are you going to use? do you hav ea soldering gun? solder? the box? do you know how to do it?

sure if you build the power supply yourself it won't be $100-200, but how many people is that really an option for? Nick probably could. I'm sure others could too, but 99% of the people on here couldn't. That's why we pay guys like nick to build cables, and guys like busman and oade to modify gear. if we could do it ourselves we would. you also have to ask yourself what kind of quality are you getting. Is there a better way to do it, that will have a positive effect on the sound? do you think church audio's preamp for these is going to cost $6.50? I doubt it. My guess it'll be $100-$200 at least. That'll be the type of thing that people without the capacity to build the power supply will be looking at buying. Unless soemone else wants to slap together $6.50 worth of parts with solder and hot glue and sell it for $50.

my point was $1100 for the cables and a grand or so for caps isn't the total cost. it's likely to be around 10% higher than that for most people.
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2008, 04:32:46 PM »
i dont quite understand why this requires two 9V batteries, as the mics only use 1 mA each. you had also mentioned via pm that you had reduced the power consumption of the ca-ugly from 20 to 12 mA.

with the average 9V battery running for 350-450 mAH, i dont understand the need for two batteries.




I am working on a super stealth preamp for these mics. In the next few weeks I will have finished the design and be ready to sell them They will however require 2 9V batteries to operate one for the mics one for my preamp. I think that the box will end up being about 2 x the size of my Ugly preamp.

Chris


My preamp uses a split rail design.. that's why... It cant be done with my preamps power supply... I have a bias supply built in to power mics but it will not supply enough current to power these mics.. So I have to add a separate power supply to power the mics with. I know my design and what can be done and cant be done..  ;)
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2008, 04:43:24 PM »
is there something about the split rail design that prevents you from running the other tiny power circuit off of the same battery, with the two power supples in parallel? the current draw of the mic power circuit is so low, i would think that it would have a negligible effect on battery voltage.



i dont quite understand why this requires two 9V batteries, as the mics only use 1 mA each. you had also mentioned via pm that you had reduced the power consumption of the ca-ugly from 20 to 12 mA.

with the average 9V battery running for 350-450 mAH, i dont understand the need for two batteries.




I am working on a super stealth preamp for these mics. In the next few weeks I will have finished the design and be ready to sell them They will however require 2 9V batteries to operate one for the mics one for my preamp. I think that the box will end up being about 2 x the size of my Ugly preamp.

Chris


My preamp uses a split rail design.. that's why... It cant be done with my preamps power supply... I have a bias supply built in to power mics but it will not supply enough current to power these mics.. So I have to add a separate power supply to power the mics with. I know my design and what can be done and cant be done..  ;)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 04:56:56 PM by jerryfreak »
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2008, 04:53:37 PM »
is there something about the split rail design that prevents you from running the other tiny power circuit off of the same battery, with the two power supples in parallel? the current draw of the mic pwer is so low, i would think tha tit would have a neglible effect on battery voltage.



i dont quite understand why this requires two 9V batteries, as the mics only use 1 mA each. you had also mentioned via pm that you had reduced the power consumption of the ca-ugly from 20 to 12 mA.

with the average 9V battery running for 350-450 mAH, i dont understand the need for two batteries.




I am working on a super stealth preamp for these mics. In the next few weeks I will have finished the design and be ready to sell them They will however require 2 9V batteries to operate one for the mics one for my preamp. I think that the box will end up being about 2 x the size of my Ugly preamp.

Chris


My preamp uses a split rail design.. that's why... It cant be done with my preamps power supply... I have a bias supply built in to power mics but it will not supply enough current to power these mics.. So I have to add a separate power supply to power the mics with. I know my design and what can be done and cant be done..  ;)
Yes because of the common ground.... its not quite as simple as it appears to be. Its not a question of total available current its a question of the virtual ground.
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2008, 04:59:19 PM »
i knew there was a simple answer in there. i must ground the mics to the mic2496 or v3 input ignal ground for them to work on those units as well.

is there something about the split rail design that prevents you from running the other tiny power circuit off of the same battery, with the two power supples in parallel? the current draw of the mic pwer is so low, i would think tha tit would have a neglible effect on battery voltage.



i dont quite understand why this requires two 9V batteries, as the mics only use 1 mA each. you had also mentioned via pm that you had reduced the power consumption of the ca-ugly from 20 to 12 mA.

with the average 9V battery running for 350-450 mAH, i dont understand the need for two batteries.




I am working on a super stealth preamp for these mics. In the next few weeks I will have finished the design and be ready to sell them They will however require 2 9V batteries to operate one for the mics one for my preamp. I think that the box will end up being about 2 x the size of my Ugly preamp.

Chris


My preamp uses a split rail design.. that's why... It cant be done with my preamps power supply... I have a bias supply built in to power mics but it will not supply enough current to power these mics.. So I have to add a separate power supply to power the mics with. I know my design and what can be done and cant be done..  ;)
Yes because of the common ground.... its not quite as simple as it appears to be. Its not a question of total available current its a question of the virtual ground.
in:
small: MK4/4V > CMR > V3 or J.Williams Mod MicMan Jr or no pre at all >AD2K/R07/PCM-A10/Oade Warm 661/DR100-MKIII

smaller: 4061/4099 CORE or 4011/4018V> d:vice MMA



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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2008, 05:01:59 PM »
i knew there was a simple answer in there. i must ground the mics to the mic2496 or v3 input ignal ground for them to work on those units as well.

is there something about the split rail design that prevents you from running the other tiny power circuit off of the same battery, with the two power supples in parallel? the current draw of the mic pwer is so low, i would think tha tit would have a neglible effect on battery voltage.



i dont quite understand why this requires two 9V batteries, as the mics only use 1 mA each. you had also mentioned via pm that you had reduced the power consumption of the ca-ugly from 20 to 12 mA.

with the average 9V battery running for 350-450 mAH, i dont understand the need for two batteries.




I am working on a super stealth preamp for these mics. In the next few weeks I will have finished the design and be ready to sell them They will however require 2 9V batteries to operate one for the mics one for my preamp. I think that the box will end up being about 2 x the size of my Ugly preamp.

Chris


My preamp uses a split rail design.. that's why... It cant be done with my preamps power supply... I have a bias supply built in to power mics but it will not supply enough current to power these mics.. So I have to add a separate power supply to power the mics with. I know my design and what can be done and cant be done..  ;)
Yes because of the common ground.... its not quite as simple as it appears to be. Its not a question of total available current its a question of the virtual ground.
There are always simple questions but never simple answers... :P my solution is to use a separate power supply for the mics and avoid this issue all together.

Chris
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2008, 04:02:37 PM »
bernhard said:

Hello Jamie,

from physical point of view it should be possible to power a CMR by P48 but we never develloped such a design. Se we cannot offer you some schematics.

With best wishes

Bernhard Vollmer
SCHOEPS GmbH
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Offline shaggy

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2008, 06:59:40 PM »
bernhard said:

from physical point of view it should be possible to power a CMR by P48 but we never develloped such a design. Se we cannot offer you some schematics.


The CMR was intended for battery pack sources, so this doesn't suprise me.  Bernhard will certainly go the extra mile to help, but at this point the application we are requesting (P48 powering) is something they never had intended for the CMR.

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2008, 03:12:23 AM »
Wait a minute.  Didn't somebody post a Schoeps schematic to drive one of their mics with phantom?  This was in the context of a general phantom adaptor for plug-in mics.

i beleive youre thinking of the DPA schematic, no?
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2008, 01:42:08 PM »
if you dont want to waste power, the V3 and many other pres can be set to 12V phantom instead of 48V. I'd guinea pig this unit with my V3 and cmr if you want to build it. is there any remaining voltage on the signal wire to the mics that would potentially damage them?

 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 01:44:32 PM by jerryfreak »
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2008, 04:13:53 PM »
well, these CMR's are the version with added decoupling capacitor (free, by request). I was digging back thru some old email and realized i misstated the purpose of the decoupling capacitor, its not there to protect the mic from bias/plugin power from the
preamp, but rather to protect the preamp from a bias existing on the mic output.

i was unsure if i needed it or not, and discussed any sonic disadvantage to having them there. he alluded to (i didnt really get it) that if both the mic and the pre have decoupling capacitors that it can act as a high pass filter of sorts. i'll try to cut and paste when im near my email box again. always a slight language barrier and i dont want to make them feel like im bothering them, they are a great helpful resource when needed. I sent two pres over there and they apparently spent days trying to make them work  and engineering was a bit frustrated, so i tried not to ask more questions than absolutely necessary.

Re: 48V vs. 12V, im sure mike or neal at grace could tell us the electrical consequences of running it either way.

if you dont want to waste power, the V3 and many other pres can be set to 12V phantom instead of 48V. I'd guinea pig this unit with my V3 and cmr if you want to build it. is there any remaining voltage on the signal wire to the mics that would potentially damage them?

 

Well if you're going to use a 12V supply, you'd need to drop the resistors much lower.  The mic can probably be directly driven off 12V . . . but the waste of power is current, not voltage.  If switching a preamp from 48V to 12V phantom power switches to a different set of supply resistors (it might; the standard for 12V is 680 ohm resistors), then you might not save much if any current.

Anyway, no, there is no DC on the signal pin (unless the mic has a DC bias on its output, which it might), but if you're worried about spikes, you could add a zener between pins 2 and 1 (on the mic side).
in:
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2008, 04:22:14 PM »
well, these CMR's are the version with added decoupling capacitor (free, by request). I was digging back thru some old email and realized i misstated the purpose of the decoupling capacitor, its not there to protect the mic from bias/plugin power from the
preamp, but rather to protect the preamp from a bias existing on the mic output.

i was unsure if i needed it or not, and discussed any sonic disadvantage to having them there. he alluded to (i didnt really get it) that if both the mic and the pre have decoupling capacitors that it can act as a high pass filter of sorts. i'll try to cut and paste when im near my email box again. always a slight language barrier and i dont want to make them feel like im bothering them, they are a great helpful resource when needed. I sent two pres over there and they apparently spent days trying to make them work  and engineering was a bit frustrated, so i tried not to ask more questions than absolutely necessary.

Re: 48V vs. 12V, im sure mike or neal at grace could tell us the electrical consequences of running it either way.

if you dont want to waste power, the V3 and many other pres can be set to 12V phantom instead of 48V. I'd guinea pig this unit with my V3 and cmr if you want to build it. is there any remaining voltage on the signal wire to the mics that would potentially damage them?

 

Well if you're going to use a 12V supply, you'd need to drop the resistors much lower.  The mic can probably be directly driven off 12V . . . but the waste of power is current, not voltage.  If switching a preamp from 48V to 12V phantom power switches to a different set of supply resistors (it might; the standard for 12V is 680 ohm resistors), then you might not save much if any current.

Anyway, no, there is no DC on the signal pin (unless the mic has a DC bias on its output, which it might), but if you're worried about spikes, you could add a zener between pins 2 and 1 (on the mic side).

I would never run these mics with out a decoupling cap the cap serves two purposes. 1 protect the mic from voltage present from the preamps input. 2 to protect the preamps input from the output of the mic. You are correct that a cap that is to low of a value can act as a high pass filter. I recommend 10uF poly cap for this application is very high value will guarantee nothing in the audible range gets effected. Most preamps have a cap on the input so its not 100% necessary in these conditions. But if your going to be building a supply and your not 100% sure about what your doing USE A CAP....

Chris
for warranty returns email me at
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Offline darktrain

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2008, 09:32:28 PM »
well, these CMR's are the version with added decoupling capacitor (free, by request). I was digging back thru some old email and realized i misstated the purpose of the decoupling capacitor, its not there to protect the mic from bias/plugin power from the
preamp, but rather to protect the preamp from a bias existing on the mic output.

i was unsure if i needed it or not, and discussed any sonic disadvantage to having them there. he alluded to (i didnt really get it) that if both the mic and the pre have decoupling capacitors that it can act as a high pass filter of sorts. i'll try to cut and paste when im near my email box again. always a slight language barrier and i dont want to make them feel like im bothering them, they are a great helpful resource when needed. I sent two pres over there and they apparently spent days trying to make them work  and engineering was a bit frustrated, so i tried not to ask more questions than absolutely necessary.

Re: 48V vs. 12V, im sure mike or neal at grace could tell us the electrical consequences of running it either way.

if you dont want to waste power, the V3 and many other pres can be set to 12V phantom instead of 48V. I'd guinea pig this unit with my V3 and cmr if you want to build it. is there any remaining voltage on the signal wire to the mics that would potentially damage them?

 

Well if you're going to use a 12V supply, you'd need to drop the resistors much lower.  The mic can probably be directly driven off 12V . . . but the waste of power is current, not voltage.  If switching a preamp from 48V to 12V phantom power switches to a different set of supply resistors (it might; the standard for 12V is 680 ohm resistors), then you might not save much if any current.

Anyway, no, there is no DC on the signal pin (unless the mic has a DC bias on its output, which it might), but if you're worried about spikes, you could add a zener between pins 2 and 1 (on the mic side).

I would never run these mics with out a decoupling cap the cap serves two purposes. 1 protect the mic from voltage present from the preamps input. 2 to protect the preamps input from the output of the mic. You are correct that a cap that is to low of a value can act as a high pass filter. I recommend 10uF poly cap for this application is very high value will guarantee nothing in the audible range gets effected. Most preamps have a cap on the input so its not 100% necessary in these conditions. But if your going to be building a supply and your not 100% sure about what your doing USE A CAP....

Chris


So if i am ready this right, you are making a competitor to the nbox chris? will it have a single in and what kind of connection, the nbox uses that 5pin switchcraft, could you do the same and would it be a fixed or variable gain? and most importantly...estimated cost?

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2008, 10:09:44 PM »
well, these CMR's are the version with added decoupling capacitor (free, by request). I was digging back thru some old email and realized i misstated the purpose of the decoupling capacitor, its not there to protect the mic from bias/plugin power from the
preamp, but rather to protect the preamp from a bias existing on the mic output.

i was unsure if i needed it or not, and discussed any sonic disadvantage to having them there. he alluded to (i didnt really get it) that if both the mic and the pre have decoupling capacitors that it can act as a high pass filter of sorts. i'll try to cut and paste when im near my email box again. always a slight language barrier and i dont want to make them feel like im bothering them, they are a great helpful resource when needed. I sent two pres over there and they apparently spent days trying to make them work  and engineering was a bit frustrated, so i tried not to ask more questions than absolutely necessary.

Re: 48V vs. 12V, im sure mike or neal at grace could tell us the electrical consequences of running it either way.

if you dont want to waste power, the V3 and many other pres can be set to 12V phantom instead of 48V. I'd guinea pig this unit with my V3 and cmr if you want to build it. is there any remaining voltage on the signal wire to the mics that would potentially damage them?

 

Well if you're going to use a 12V supply, you'd need to drop the resistors much lower.  The mic can probably be directly driven off 12V . . . but the waste of power is current, not voltage.  If switching a preamp from 48V to 12V phantom power switches to a different set of supply resistors (it might; the standard for 12V is 680 ohm resistors), then you might not save much if any current.

Anyway, no, there is no DC on the signal pin (unless the mic has a DC bias on its output, which it might), but if you're worried about spikes, you could add a zener between pins 2 and 1 (on the mic side).

I would never run these mics with out a decoupling cap the cap serves two purposes. 1 protect the mic from voltage present from the preamps input. 2 to protect the preamps input from the output of the mic. You are correct that a cap that is to low of a value can act as a high pass filter. I recommend 10uF poly cap for this application is very high value will guarantee nothing in the audible range gets effected. Most preamps have a cap on the input so its not 100% necessary in these conditions. But if your going to be building a supply and your not 100% sure about what your doing USE A CAP....

Chris


So if i am ready this right, you are making a competitor to the nbox chris? will it have a single in and what kind of connection, the nbox uses that 5pin switchcraft, could you do the same and would it be a fixed or variable gain? and most importantly...estimated cost?

My preamp will be essentially a Ugly with two gain pots +20 db of gain adjustable. With a 5 pin mini xlr connector and a 3.5 mm output. And it will cost about $200.00
for warranty returns email me at
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Offline darktrain

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Re: Schoeps CMR
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2008, 10:34:59 PM »
so could i use my actives with the 5 pin switchcraft(is there an adapter) or could you build one with the plug we nbox users already have?(see pic)or is that already a 5 pin mini xlr?

« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 11:51:49 PM by Darktrain »

 

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