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Author Topic: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)  (Read 91304 times)

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Offline justink

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #300 on: October 26, 2014, 08:33:15 PM »
OKAY!  here's my experience with syncing two R-44's....

......after 3 hours and 55 minutes.  ZERO DRIFT!

none.  nothing.  zilch.  nada.

everything matched up perfectly. 

so, here is another testimony of a perfect sync.  ymmv.

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.  I had a feeling that I wasn't the only one in the universe that can sync two r-44's.
If you were to dig back to 2009 you could find my posts about the clock syncing on the R-44's.  Per the Edirol(now Roland) techs the clocks are NOT sync'd with the 1/8" cable just the transport functions.  With that being said, it is possible that two units will run perfectly in sync, But it is pure chance.  JUst like the Yamaha CD burner I had that synced perfectly with my DR-680.  Just happened to work.  You just cannot count on the two units running in perfect sync, unless you use something like a USBPre-2 in the chain that allows external sync.  The subject has been kicked around and there are varing opinions but I tend to believe the guys at the factory when they told me that cable did not have anything to do with the clocks on the decks.

Yeah, and I respect that. I'm not pretending to know anything more than what I've observed. But in my one time experience, after four hours of recording on two complete different device runs (over four or five years difference and one being designated "E"), there was no drift with pre record turned off on both devices.

I will happily report back with further results when I get some.
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #301 on: October 27, 2014, 09:44:04 AM »

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.

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Offline capnhook

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #302 on: October 27, 2014, 07:04:26 PM »

Thanks for the sanity check, justink.

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Offline jmerin

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #303 on: June 05, 2015, 08:29:39 AM »
I am getting the r-44 real soon. Have there been any recent issues with the deck that I should know about.
Thanks
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #304 on: June 05, 2015, 09:37:18 AM »
Folks seem to dig the newest firmware with the big meters.  You might update to that.  I still haven't loaded it yet. 
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Offline jmerin

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #305 on: June 05, 2015, 09:49:58 AM »
Folks seem to dig the newest firmware with the big meters.  You might update to that.  I still haven't loaded it yet.

Thanks, I believe mine will come with that.
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Offline T-90

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #306 on: June 05, 2015, 11:33:30 AM »
Folks seem to dig the newest firmware with the big meters.  You might update to that.  I still haven't loaded it yet.

Thanks, I believe mine will come with that.

I've been runing that version of the firmware for sometime without issue....I love the zoomed in meter view
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Offline DSatz

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #307 on: June 22, 2015, 09:00:13 PM »
I've just had the weirdest R44 experience ever. It was totally my fault, but I still don't understand how what happened could have happened.

Last Thursday I recorded a certain rehearsal, and so did a video guy. My mikes were well placed while his weren't, plus his camera records through tinny sounding built-in electrets and uses heavy, heavy ALC. Having done this before, we planned for me to send him a 48 kHz mp3 file of my recording, which he could then sync up with his video in Adobe Premiere. There's never been a problem with this arrangement, and that arrangemend worked fine for the first half of this rehearsal, too.

Unfortunately, I should have changed the R44's batteries during the intermission, but I didn't--and I didn't notice the battery indicator, and didn't have an outboard battery with me. Totally, totally, my fault. It's been years since I messed up a recording like that. The recorder shut down during the second half of the rehearsal about four minutes before the end.

I swapped in a new set of batteries and got the final two+ minutes. But it was clear that I would need to rely on my friend's recording for the ~90 seconds that I'd missed. It was just a rehearsal recording, so that's embarrassing and a bummer, but no tragedy.

Getting ready for this bit of audio surgery, my video friend sent me his 48 kHz WAV file, which I converted to 44.1, while my recording of the second part of the rehearsal existed in two 44.1 kHz files: one long one (from the end of intermission until the batteries died), and one short file (the end). The long file wouldn't load into Adobe Audition, and when I looked at its WAV header I could see why: It indicated a 0-length DATA chunk. I repaired the file header, and then the file loaded OK and sounded good. I found suitable edit points, dropped the missing music in, evened out the volume levels and sent my friend a 48 kHz mp3 file of the result.

However, he soon reported that it was several minutes longer than his video recording. And this wasn't a 44.1 vs. 48 kHz thing; I was careful about converting back and forth, and both his recording and mine play back at the same musical pitch. Yet mine takes place over a distinctly longer time span than his, and his matches with his video, while mine doesn't.

You think that's weird? Try this: The ratio of time scales for the two recordings isn't constant. Depending on which musical "landmarks" I measure between, the ratio of elapsed time for the same passage in each of the two recordings is anywhere from 1.377:1 (for a segment near the beginning) to 1.168:1 (for the recording as a whole up to the moment of battery crap-out).

My recording sounds plausible to me at the pace it has, but then so does the camera recording, and it matches the video in duration. I've looked closely at the waveforms in my recording and I don't see any repeated samples or groups of samples, nor do I hear any digital chattering. Plus I can't imagine why there would be, under the circumstances. In the end, I had to tell the video guy to use the sound track from his camera for the entire second half of the rehearsal, although it doesn't sound very good.

This is just so freakish that I had to post the story. Has anyone else here experienced anything like it?

--best regards
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 12:15:10 AM by DSatz »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #308 on: June 23, 2015, 09:55:43 AM »
My question about this would be whether the R-44's internal clock was thrown off by the dying voltage of the batteries?  Is that a possible explanation? 

Offline aaronji

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #309 on: June 23, 2015, 10:28:17 AM »
^^^ If the clock was thrown off, presumably the pitch would be too.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #310 on: June 23, 2015, 10:36:28 AM »
Strange. Especially the changing time scale ratio.  The recording has a longer time duration near the start than it is near it's end, yet plays back at the same pitch as the other recording (which is minutes shorter overall) at all points. A quite bizarre variable elastic time-shift phenomena. 

This is of no help, but tangentially related- I've been impressed by the routines in modern DAWs which allow time stretching or shrinking without pitch change, but of course they are DSP intensive to do so at high quality without audible artifacts.  I've used that function in Samplitude to shrink the longer of two (or more) recordings made with separate non-clock-sync'd recorders to great effect.  In that application of the tool, the time ratio is of course constant across the entire region of interest.  I have not used the alternate algorithms of the same 'elastic time' function which also vary the time ratio throughout the region, which I believe is designed for tasks such as 'quantizing' audio files in a similar way to what is commonly done with MIDI data.  Presumably used as a way to shift the 'feel' of a percussive rhythmic groove, or slide around the note timing of an out of rhythm performance to place it more 'on the beat'.

As a related aside, I was listening last weekend to a radio program with a segment about a playback 'performance' of Beethoven's 9th stretched from the typical 70 some minutes to 24 hours long.  Pitch was unchanged.  I found myself wondering what algorithm was used to do such extreme time stretching, as the samples of the music played on the program sounded completely clean and artifact free, both in the harmonic sense and time-wise.  Fascinating transformation.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline H₂O

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #311 on: June 23, 2015, 10:42:35 AM »
Have you zoomed way into the recording to see if inaudible "pauses" have been added and have you identified where the time discrepancy began to happen?  Could it be a slight sample offset (i.e. 44.1 versus 44.056)?


Does the first set have the same issue?
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Offline DSatz

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #312 on: June 23, 2015, 10:37:04 PM »
> Have you zoomed way into the recording to see if inaudible "pauses" have been added and have you identified where the time discrepancy began to happen?

Yes. No pauses; no duplicated samples.

> Could it be a slight sample offset (i.e. 44.1 versus 44.056)?

It's not slight like that; its a 15% to 40% difference. And the ratio varies.

> Does the first set have the same issue?

No, if you mean the half of the rehearsal from before intermission; it syncs up perfectly with the video.
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Offline Colin Liston

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #313 on: June 29, 2015, 11:03:39 PM »
By no means is this meant to be technical or for that matter helpful, but dying batteries do, do strange things. 
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Offline jmerin

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #314 on: July 01, 2015, 08:49:49 AM »
What gear bag do you guys use with the r-44?
Mics: Schoeps MK4's | Schoeps MK41's | Schoeps Mk21's
Pre-Amps: Schoeps VMS02ib | Nbox Platinum KCY
Cables: KCY 250/5 Ig (2)
Recorders: Sony M10  | Tascam 70D l Edirol R-44

 

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