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Offline CorFit Chris

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Adobe Audition steps?
« on: February 21, 2016, 01:30:19 PM »
I am new to Adobe Audition and the MultiTrack feature.  I typically record at least 2-3 stereo sources (ex. 2 pairs of mics and/or sbd).  I like to add a bit of EQ, amplification, and stereo image.  I prefer to "brighten" up my recordings some in post.  So, I am curious if there is a preferred method of sequence to this process. 

1- should I perform eq, stereo image, etc. on each individual track before multi-tracking it?  Or, should I multi-track all tracks, then perform eq, stereo image, phase correction, etc. on the final multi-track?

2- when do I perform phase correction?  I have a Tascam dr-680, so my tracks are typically in time with each other, but stereo imaging may cause some phasing issues that need to be addressed.

3- Any primary issues/concerns/considerations when using these processes in Adobe Audition?


Here is an example of my recent recording that someone told me had "prominent" phasing.  I checked it for timing and it was good, so I assume what he is hearing is a "bouncing around" effect associated with my increased stereo imaging.  Any feedback would be helpful.

https://soundcloud.com/orithris/sets/warren-haynes-ashes-dust-band-live-02172016

thanks
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 01:34:27 PM by CorFit Chris »
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 05:58:49 PM »
You're really asking a lot of complicated questions here.  I'd search through old threads...

IMO I'd either work with (or solo) each track prior to trying to combine them, though in combining them you may find you have more work to do to reach the final product.  I would not combine them until you're happy with what you're combining.  It's a lot easier to address the deficiencies in each component independently than once they're all mashed together (at which point you probably can't address some issues). 

That last piece may refer to the "phasing" issue, such as it is.  Time alignment issues that create phasing are one thing and those are fixable (aligning the time base first before combining the sources).  "Phasing" resulting from too many disparate sources with opposing characteristics being combined isn't really fixable except by reducing the number of sources or treating them until they're compatible.   

Audition multitrack allows you to work on each source by highlighting it in multitrack then going to the edit window.  If you open them in edit then import them to multitrack you can work with any of the components in either window.  You can also work with the output a little in the mixer, though in my opinion the best way to work with the combined output is to render the mixdown once you're satified with the components then work on the resulting mixdown itself independently. 



 
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2016, 03:01:11 PM »

2- when do I perform phase correction?  I have a Tascam dr-680, so my tracks are typically in time with each other, but stereo imaging may cause some phasing issues that need to be addressed.


If an audience microphone source and a soundboard source are recorded to the same deck they are clocked to each other but not "in time" with each other. You need to add ~1ms per foot to the sbd source to make up the difference it takes the time to travel through the air to your mics. For instance if your mics were at the mix desk 35 feet from the stage you would need to move the sbd source ahead around 35 milliseconds to sync with the mic source. Even an onstage pair can need a few ms of delay to sync properly.

Also you could try mixing down one of the stereo pairs using a M/S plugin to put a center image when mixing multiple stereo pairs.

When I multitracked in Audition 1.5 (which I do little of nowadays I mostly use Wavelab6) it was for home studio stuff up to 16 or more tracks. Afraid I can't help with more specific workflow answers.
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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 06:26:32 PM »
IMO I'd either work with (or solo) each track prior to trying to combine them, though in combining them you may find you have more work to do to reach the final product.  I would not combine them until you're happy with what you're combining.  It's a lot easier to address the deficiencies in each component independently than once they're all mashed together (at which point you probably can't address some issues). 

That last piece may refer to the "phasing" issue, such as it is.  Time alignment issues that create phasing are one thing and those are fixable (aligning the time base first before combining the sources).  "Phasing" resulting from too many disparate sources with opposing characteristics being combined isn't really fixable except by reducing the number of sources or treating them until they're compatible.   

Audition multitrack allows you to work on each source by highlighting it in multitrack then going to the edit window.  If you open them in edit then import them to multitrack you can work with any of the components in either window.  You can also work with the output a little in the mixer, though in my opinion the best way to work with the combined output is to render the mixdown once you're satified with the components then work on the resulting mixdown itself independently. 

Thanks for the input here.  I was all over the place with some recent recordings as I had several in a short period of time and just downloaded the trial version of Audition.  Now that I look back at my previous 3 shows I realize processed each very differently.  I am a bit confused about the process of pulling all three stereo tracks into Multi-track and working one them in there individually since there is an Effects Rack in each individual track and a larger one on the left side of the interface.

So, if I Import all raw tracks into Audition, then create a Multi-Track file and pull them into that Multi-track, I can manipulate each track individually within the Multi-Track (EQ, Amplify, etc), adjust timing if SBD is involved (thanks for reminder goodcooker), and when the should is how i like it i simply Save and Export the file?
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 07:02:02 PM »
IMO I'd either work with (or solo) each track prior to trying to combine them, though in combining them you may find you have more work to do to reach the final product.  I would not combine them until you're happy with what you're combining.  It's a lot easier to address the deficiencies in each component independently than once they're all mashed together (at which point you probably can't address some issues). 

That last piece may refer to the "phasing" issue, such as it is.  Time alignment issues that create phasing are one thing and those are fixable (aligning the time base first before combining the sources).  "Phasing" resulting from too many disparate sources with opposing characteristics being combined isn't really fixable except by reducing the number of sources or treating them until they're compatible.   

Audition multitrack allows you to work on each source by highlighting it in multitrack then going to the edit window.  If you open them in edit then import them to multitrack you can work with any of the components in either window.  You can also work with the output a little in the mixer, though in my opinion the best way to work with the combined output is to render the mixdown once you're satified with the components then work on the resulting mixdown itself independently. 

Thanks for the input here.  I was all over the place with some recent recordings as I had several in a short period of time and just downloaded the trial version of Audition.  Now that I look back at my previous 3 shows I realize processed each very differently.  I am a bit confused about the process of pulling all three stereo tracks into Multi-track and working one them in there individually since there is an Effects Rack in each individual track and a larger one on the left side of the interface.

So, if I Import all raw tracks into Audition, then create a Multi-Track file and pull them into that Multi-track, I can manipulate each track individually within the Multi-Track (EQ, Amplify, etc), adjust timing if SBD is involved (thanks for reminder goodcooker), and when the should is how i like it i simply Save and Export the file?

I think in some ways it may be easier to split the stereo tracks to mono then import them since you then have mono tracks in multitrack as "channels" rather than stereo tracks in multi, but either way should work.  If you have stereo pairs it may be easier to preserve that relationship keeping them as stereo tracks (though I would note that just because they're stereo from the same mic pair doesn't mean you don't need to evaluate each channel of that pair individually and make sure they are in phase with each other and optimized before going further). 

My flow is to open the track/s in Edit mode.  I tend to then do whatever I need to do with the components there. 
Then going to the edit menu "Insert into multitrack session"
Load them all up that way into one session (which you can save as a session for continuing work).

The multitrack tools in the mixer panel are cruder (you basically have mixing console type adjustments rather than the granular stuff you can do within full edit mode - note in addition to track by track controls you have the master control which is for the final output).  The primary use for the multitrack tools should really be to adjust the relative levels of the various tracks and perhaps the panning (but I wouldn't use this for eq) and at the final mix to adjust the output level.  The key at the master setting is to make sure the output doesn't clip when all the components are summed. 

Time alignment is easier to see in multitrack view though (but you have to go back to the edit window to adjust each track/pair to the proper starting point - I think you can drag within the mutltrack window but that is way too imprecise IMO).  My approach to time alignment is to cut the relevant number of samples off the front of the one/s that start later, assuming they are on the same time-base but just not aligned due to being varying distances from the source or being sbd/aud)

Once in multitrack you can still go back the edit window to make fine adjustments on the individual tracks and as long as you save the track adjustments in the edit window those later changes will be what the multitrack has to work with. 

Once all is as you want it go back to the edit window (in multitrack) to "Mixdown to a new file in stereo".  You can then work with that rendered output further in the edit window. 

HTH... 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 07:04:36 PM by bombdiggity »
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Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2016, 01:24:04 PM »
Ok.  Thanks for that last post of your Work Flow bombdiggity.  That is good info for me regrading the editing tools in different windows.  I will work through a few shows this weekend and see how it all comes out.
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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2016, 01:30:39 PM »

My approach to time alignment is to cut the relevant number of samples off the front of the one/s that start later, assuming they are on the same time-base but just not aligned due to being varying distances from the source or being sbd/aud)


Typically my timing alignment is based on separate distances (mics by board vs sbd from stage).  However, occasionally the timing is off between two recorders.  For example, i'm running mics to my deck and get a usb dongle with the soundboard file from the sound engineer.  Or I get sbd on a different recorder.  In this case the recordings are at different speeds and while matched at the beginning, they are misaligned by the middle and very off at the end.  I typically have to track out the files and adjust on a song-by-song basis.  Not very efficient. 

Does Audition have a function to match the timings between the two different tracks for this issue?
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2016, 06:55:48 PM »
Does Audition have a function to match the timings between the two different tracks for this issue?

I'm not really aware that anything does that... 

I look for like events in the different sources.  Before starting I would reset the time scale in the main edit window to samples (right click on the time scale > display time format > samples), which are a lot easier to work with than milliseconds.  Highlighting the distance between the same event on different channels in smaples will provide an easy measure of how much to truncate the delayed signal relative to the forward one (cutting off the start so it is no longer delayed). 

Assuming all the sources are from the same recorder (so the time base should be consistent) it is an issue of matching or really in most cases averaging the relative arrival of the same sound at the different mics. 

So where there is a distinctive loud peak from an identifiable sound across the channels you need to zoom in really close to find it in each source and see how it aligns between them.  You'll typically notice some difference between left and right in the same pair but a lot more between pairs in different locations. 

You have to base this on a number of observations of peaks from different instruments (different instruments will also have different arrival times due to relative positioning) and generally average it all out to get a consistent read. 

If you're not very experienced with reading these things then start with headphones and exaggerate the differences using a dual mono signal (moving one channel back and forth in and out of phase with the other).  You'll start to hear the impact of phasing (the differing arrival of the same signal).  It's really easy to perceive in mono and somewhat harder to get a definitive read on in stereo (since part of what makes stereo stereo is very small subtle phase differences - large differences on the other hand create annoying echo, wash, cancellation, etc., and generally sound like mud).  It is much easier to perceive the effects in headphones.
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2016, 03:40:28 PM »
If you're not very experienced with reading these things then start with headphones and exaggerate the differences using a dual mono signal (moving one channel back and forth in and out of phase with the other).  You'll start to hear the impact of phasing (the differing arrival of the same signal).  It's really easy to perceive in mono and somewhat harder to get a definitive read on in stereo (since part of what makes stereo stereo is very small subtle phase differences - large differences on the other hand create annoying echo, wash, cancellation, etc., and generally sound like mud).  It is much easier to perceive the effects in headphones.

This is good advice.  One of my issues is I like dynamic sound and sometimes I highly process my files with eq and stereo image.  I think what some call phasing, I call lively.  I need to work on my critical ear, and your suggestion seems like a good start. 

One more quick question...I assume there is a quick and easy method to track out my show into individual songs, but I can't seem to identify it.  So far, I have saved the final version from Audition and imported it into Audacity to label tracks.  Is Audition as quick and easy as Audacity?

I appreciate your time here! 
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2016, 04:00:23 PM »

This is good advice.  One of my issues is I like dynamic sound and sometimes I highly process my files with eq and stereo image.  I think what some call phasing, I call lively.  I need to work on my critical ear, and your suggestion seems like a good start. 

One more quick question...I assume there is a quick and easy method to track out my show into individual songs, but I can't seem to identify it.  So far, I have saved the final version from Audition and imported it into Audacity to label tracks.  Is Audition as quick and easy as Audacity?

I appreciate your time here!

Yes.  Tracking is simple in Audition but not obvious... 

With the file open place a cursor where you want the split > right click the cursor >  insert in marker list.  Make sure you set the first one at 0 or wherever you want to start the set from and that you also place one at the end or wherever the last track should end.   

Once the split markers are all placed go to Window menu > Marker list >
Highlight any extraneous markers (such as where segments are joined or sometimes a bunch pile up at 0) and delete those (using the trashcan icon at the bottom of the marker list window).
Highlight all that remain and click the Merge Selected button (next one over) which creates ranges between the markers. 
Highlight all the ranges (or the ones you want as tracks) then Batch Process Marker Regions > click the save to files option (make sure the silence option above it is not used), I uncheck the use maker label and add the filename prefix (which is the track file name you'd want - making sure not to be too specific so you don't have to remove anything by hand as you resample or whatever), seq. start should be "0" or "01" depending on what you want the tracks to number from (it appends this in ascending order to each track so that numbers them for you), browse to the destination folder (and make sure your output format is Windows PCM .wav), then click OK.  It will save the tracks out where you want them. 

Note it does not necessarily by default put the cursor on sector boundaries though you may be able to reset the cursor default to do that (but that setting is a problem if you need to do detailed editing at a very specific point so I don't use any of those click-to options). 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 04:04:19 PM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline hoserama

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2016, 09:22:01 AM »

My approach to time alignment is to cut the relevant number of samples off the front of the one/s that start later, assuming they are on the same time-base but just not aligned due to being varying distances from the source or being sbd/aud)


Typically my timing alignment is based on separate distances (mics by board vs sbd from stage).  However, occasionally the timing is off between two recorders.  For example, i'm running mics to my deck and get a usb dongle with the soundboard file from the sound engineer.  Or I get sbd on a different recorder.  In this case the recordings are at different speeds and while matched at the beginning, they are misaligned by the middle and very off at the end.  I typically have to track out the files and adjust on a song-by-song basis.  Not very efficient. 

Does Audition have a function to match the timings between the two different tracks for this issue?
Yep, you're dealing with the joys of time aligning two different recorders. Digital clocks are not perfectly linear.

Some people do the "chop and align" by each song. However, you're basically just trying to mitigate the misalignment to an unnoticeable level (but still exists). I like to do time stretch. I did a cheesy video for how to do time alignment using Adobe Audition (uses combination of Audition CC and Audition 3, although you can do it all in AA3).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOz2GUdL_vw&feature=youtu.be

Let me know if you want the spreadsheet I wrote for time alignment. It calculates the ratios for you.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 09:58:21 AM by hoserama »
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stevetoney

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2016, 04:34:13 AM »

Note it does not necessarily by default put the cursor on sector boundaries though you may be able to reset the cursor default to do that (but that setting is a problem if you need to do detailed editing at a very specific point so I don't use any of those click-to options).

Most i know of use cdwave (which is shareware) because it cuts tracks on sector boundaries. Audition doesn't cut tracks at sector boundaries so, for example, if you save files as 16 bit and burn to cdr, you won't have any short gaps in playback where track splits don't align on the boundary.

Also fwiw, I record in stereo pairs of mics, not iso tracks of each instrument. in audition i do all my editing in stereo pairs to keep levels and phase consistent in pairs.  I don't even concern myself with multi track view until all pairs are completely and finally edited as a pair.  Importantly i don't do anything with the timing, so don't remove any dead space from the beginning of any of the track pairs. Once I'm happy with the sound of each pair, i add to multitrAck view.

In multi track view, i load each pair and compare the timing across pairs using both my ears/headphones and by zooming in on the waveforms to see if there is any latency.  Use the mute and isolate tools in multi track view to help perform this task. Select one pair to be the reference pair for timing then key all the other pairs to the reference pair.  i then make any adjustments for latency by  going back into edit view and either adding or subtracting space at the beginning of the track pair.  When you do this, audition returns a message that you're about to mess with the alignment in multi track, but you know that so accept the warning and move forward.

Once all the tracks pairs are aligned, i go back into multi track view and mix them all together to taste by raising and lowering the levels of each pair while listening to them all payback together at the same time. 

Once I'm happy with the relative mix, i go to the multi track pull down and select mixdown all tracks.

Only after doing this final mixdown do i remove any major sections of dead space before the music.  In the mixtown file, i go back into edit view to cut the crap from the behinning and end, add fades at start and end, normalize the midtown to 0db and save both the mixdown master , the session, and any mods made to an input pair.

Then i track it and save each track as a  flac file in cdwave.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:41:33 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline ziko

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2016, 08:56:26 AM »
DR680 or R44 and all i have ever used is cool edit or now adobe 3.0.....multitrack.....I record in mono always. except if go digital in on 7/8 as not sure it will record in mono. r44 will do mono on all......to me much easier in mono to do what ever is needed. I can add level and pan as needed. much easier than doing it stereo wise. i can address how i used to do it if needed... and for fests track splits are few and far between for mono tracks. my .02 if clocked on same recorder

1 drop files into adobe
2 go to multi track
3 drop sources there and align to compensate for delays, pan as needed and tweak levels. harder in stereo IMO
4 play it in many spots checking peaks and sound, there is a button on top of each track to flip phase, this can often tell if something is a muck. i seldom do have to   leave  it inverted
5 now if one show  edit>mixdown to new file in stereo>i belive you have to main up to 3 if mixing stereo sources to keep same levels, mono no need, periodically i might tweak a track eq but....
6 now stereo source mixed>if happy with all level outcomes
07 now listen and edit if needed, I do on occassion add levels to low level sources by highlight area and use envelope process  to cause hopefully no noticable level changes as i have saved abunch with fades in and out there so...
08 once right track in cdwav

i showed chomps once at the house and think he uses it since then...time makes it easier to do. i almost always get it right the first time when mixing
i mostly tape wormtown fest these days, many results here https://archive.org/bookmarks/heynow1
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 09:06:05 AM by ziko »

Offline ashevillain

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2016, 12:25:50 PM »
Audition doesn't cut tracks at sector boundaries so, for example, if you save files as 16 bit and burn to cdr, you won't have any short gaps in playback where track splits don't align on the boundary.

I wish I had time to respond to everything in this thread because I think there are a lot of errors and misconceptions about the way Audition works...at least the way I've been able to make it work for me over the years.

I will say that Audition will absolutely cut tracks on sector boundaries (as will almost any other software I've ever used). All you have to do is set up the grid and set each grid line to be on a sector boundary. I've always just used seconds as each second is always on a boundary...just always been easiest for me to do it that way but there are other ways to do it. Once you have that set up, set the program to snap to the grid so anywhere the cursor is placed will always be on a boundary and then you'll always place markers on the boundaries.

*It's possible there could be some differences between the Mac and Windows versions that I don't know about. I use the Mac version, fwiw.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 12:35:38 PM by ashevillain »

stevetoney

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Re: Adobe Audition steps?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2016, 07:15:08 PM »
Audition doesn't cut tracks at sector boundaries so, for example, if you save files as 16 bit and burn to cdr, you won't have any short gaps in playback where track splits don't align on the boundary.

I wish I had time to respond to everything in this thread because I think there are a lot of errors and misconceptions about the way Audition works...at least the way I've been able to make it work for me over the years.

I will say that Audition will absolutely cut tracks on sector boundaries (as will almost any other software I've ever used). All you have to do is set up the grid and set each grid line to be on a sector boundary. I've always just used seconds as each second is always on a boundary...just always been easiest for me to do it that way but there are other ways to do it. Once you have that set up, set the program to snap to the grid so anywhere the cursor is placed will always be on a boundary and then you'll always place markers on the boundaries.

*It's possible there could be some differences between the Mac and Windows versions that I don't know about. I use the Mac version, fwiw.

Thanks for the clarification Ashevillain.  You're of course right.  I shouldn't have said that Audition doesn't cut on boundaries.  As far as I'm aware, it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY cut on sector boundaries, does it?  In my case, I've never used the snap function in Audition because it ends up fighting with me when I want to locate to a specific spot, so whenever I've turned it on, I usually find myself turning it back off pretty quickly anyway.  Just never got in the habit of using it as a result. 

Anyway, my workflow has never relied on Audition for tracking out my recordings.  I've always used CDWave because it's quick and easy and automatically cuts tracks on sector boundaries.  I'd appreciate any feedback if there's a better/quicker way, but I don't really want to use Audition to do this function if it's not automatic, cause I know me and sure as sh** I'll start putting shows out there with screwed up track splits if it's not automatic.






 

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