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Author Topic: what do you make if this "24bit" show?  (Read 5836 times)

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2005, 07:31:39 PM »
I would think that sum of the information contained in 2 distinct 16/44.1 sources would create more data than could be contained within a single 16/44.1k destination file without data loss occuring.

Adding two 16-bit files, meaning we now have double the amount of information, does not equal greater resolution, greater precision.  It merely means we have double the amount of data at the same resolution/precision.

Woudn't the (or any other manipulative process) likely take place at 32bit plus to minimize data loss in the first place?

Yes, but in order to do so we must upsample the 16-bit files to achieve greater resolution.
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Offline dnsacks

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2005, 07:49:24 PM »
I would think that sum of the information contained in 2 distinct 16/44.1 sources would create more data than could be contained within a single 16/44.1k destination file without data loss occuring.



Adding two 16-bit files, meaning we now have double the amount of information, does not equal greater resolution, greater precision.  It merely means we have double the amount of data at the same resolution/precision.

Woudn't the (or any other manipulative process) likely take place at 32bit plus to minimize data loss in the first place?

Yes, but in order to do so we must upsample the 16-bit files to achieve greater resolution.

Brian -- Understood -- but it sounds like what dan did was combine/mix the 2 16bit/44.1k files at whatever resolution his daw performed this function and instructed the resulting file to be created as a 24 bit/44.1k file -- if the mixing is performed at a higher resolution, wouldn't that be tantamount to upsampling in the first place? 

The heart of my logic is a presumption that it would be impossible to add together the data contained in two 16bit/44.1k files to create a 16bit/44.1k target file without some of the data being lost.  The only way I could see to maintain the resolution contiained in the sum of these 2 files would be to increase the available space (resolution) of the target file.  Perhaps my underlying presumption is faulty?

Offline nic

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2005, 08:32:36 PM »
The heart of my logic is a presumption that it would be impossible to add together the data contained in two 16bit/44.1k files to create a 16bit/44.1k target file without some of the data being lost.
so, when a studio engineer overdubbs a session he is loosing data if he keeps the resulting file at the original resolution and bit-depth of the source files?
no

Dan is correct when he says he didn't upsample as upsampling would create a 48, 88.2, 96, etc file.
he DID increase bit depth though.


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Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2005, 08:37:02 PM »
how did he increase bit depth? It's not that I don't believe you it's that I want to understand what he actually did to the file. Thanks!
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Offline nic

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2005, 08:40:27 PM »
the only way to go from a 16bit file to a 24bit file is to increase bit depth via a plugin.
you can take a 16bit file, apply uv22hr and get a 24bit file.

all its doing is adding dither noise to fill up the extra 8 bits


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Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2005, 08:41:34 PM »
okay, thanks... makes much more sense now. I wonder what plugin he used?
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Offline heath

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2005, 09:35:07 PM »
I agree that he had to have used a plugin to apply dither and create a new file in his DAW (not sure what he's using nowadays).  Luvean is correct, i believe, that the extra 8 bits are just dither.  I'll email dan and find out what type of software he's running now.

FWIW, when Dan references listening to it on his "boat", he is actually referring to his home.  He has a sweet houseboat that he lives on up in Connecticut.  Very nice playback system and home theater on it as well.  It's not like he's listening to it on a boombox on his dingy  ;D
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Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2005, 09:38:50 PM »
thanks so much heath... I was a little confused, for all I know he could have some ns-10's on that thing ;)

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Offline heath

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2005, 09:43:30 PM »
thanks so much heath... I was a little confused, for all I know he could have some ns-10's on that thing ;)



lol +T for the cross reference  ;D
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Offline MattD

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2005, 09:51:23 PM »
Okay, I'm gonna try to take the mathematical approach here. When you combine two waves, they are summed ... if each wave has a peak with a value of 1 at a particular sample, the summed value of that sample is 2. Likewise, if one wave is +1 and one is -.5, the result is a .5 value at that sample, and so on.

At any given sample, each 16-bit sample can have one of 65536 discrete values. When you add them together, two summed waves can have one of 131072 values. By the math, Scott's theory holds. It takes an extra bit (now at 2^17 values) to hold two summed waves.
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Offline nic

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2005, 09:53:04 PM »
Okay, I'm gonna try to take the mathematical approach here. When you combine two waves, they are summed ... if each wave has a peak with a value of 1 at a particular sample, the summed value of that sample is 2. Likewise, if one wave is +1 and one is -.5, the result is a .5 value at that sample, and so on.

At any given sample, each 16-bit sample can have one of 65536 discrete values. When you add them together, two summed waves can have one of 131072 values. By the math, Scott's theory holds. It takes an extra bit (now at 2^17 values) to hold two summed waves.

true, but you dont know where he had his master fader set


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Offline Tim

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2005, 09:53:47 PM »
thanks so much heath... I was a little confused, for all I know he could have some ns-10's on that thing ;)



lol +T for the cross reference ;D

my sarcasm is subtle like that :)
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Offline MattD

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2005, 09:59:59 PM »
true, but you dont know where he had his master fader set

You're right. I was going for a theoretical maximum with that. Just that it was possible to "gain" bit depth, nothing more. :)
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Offline nic

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2005, 10:04:58 PM »
true, but you dont know where he had his master fader set

You're right. I was going for a theoretical maximum with that. Just that it was possible to "gain" bit depth, nothing more. :)

actually, he would have to be working on the files in a "float" environment or the 17th bit would exceed 0


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Offline dnsacks

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Re: what do you make if this "24bit" show?
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2005, 10:05:51 PM »
Thanks, now makes perfect sense

 

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