Topic: Patching 24 Bit Recorders

[dave570]

Hi, got a question.  If I patch a card recorder into a 24 bit deck at a show and the lead deck is 24/96, does that mean my deck has to be 24/96 too or can I record at 24/44.1?

I'm pretty sure I want to stick with 24/44.1 since my final format is CD.  I'll dither it to 16/44.1 in post processing.

[JasonSobel]

If you take a digital patch from the lead deck, then yes, you will need to record at the same sample rate as the lead deck.  But if you take an analog patch, then you can record at whatever sample rate you'd like.  Of course, taking an analog patch is undesirable, because the signal will go through an additional D/A and A/D conversion process.

if you do end up recording at 24/96, r8brain is a great resampling program to use.

[dave570]

Thanks!  Given that my recorder (Edirol 09HR) has no digital input, an analog patch seems probable.

This may sound crazy, but my hearing ain't what it used to be.  My 50 year old ears have been impacted by over 300 GD shows including many Phil Lesh bombs and Hot Tuna blasts from the 70s rampage years.  I know for sure I have hearing damage.  If this means I pass on slightly inferior sounding cds to people, I'm not worried.  Most of my friends I trade with are older than me and also have hearing damage. And they have never complained. At this point, signal loss due to conversion is not an issue. Sad to admit this, but its honest. I've taken many, many analog patches into a D8 from a D8 this year. My ears don't care. It all sounds good to me!

[J.Maye]

I thought it would just truncate the signal? I thought I could use my iriver to digitally patch from a 24 bit source and the recorder would just catch the 16 bit. I could be wrong though.

[JasonSobel]

Thanks!  Given that my recorder (Edirol 09HR) has no digital input, an analog patch seems probable.

This may sound crazy, but my hearing ain't what it used to be.  My 50 year old ears have been impacted by over 300 GD shows including many Phil Lesh bombs and Hot Tuna blasts from the 70s rampage years.  I know for sure I have hearing damage.  If this means I pass on slightly inferior sounding cds to people, I'm not worried.  Most of my friends I trade with are older than me and also have hearing damage. And they have never complained. At this point, signal loss due to conversion is not an issue. Sad to admit this, but its honest. I've taken many, many analog patches into a D8 from a D8 this year. My ears don't care. It all sounds good to me!

indeed, with an r09hr, an analog patch is the only kind of patch you'll get.  so as long as it sounds good to you, you're all set.

I thought it would just truncate the signal? I thought I could use my iriver to digitally patch from a 24 bit source and the recorder would just catch the 16 bit. I could be wrong though.

you are confusing bit depth with sample rate.  you could send a 24 bit / 48 kHz (or 44.1) digital signal to a 16 bit device (like the iriver), and record at 16 bit / 48 kHz (or 44.1) without any problems.  it'll lock onto the signal and truncate the 24 bit to 16 bit, like you say.  But if you send a 24 bit / 96 kHz signal, the iriver won't be able to lock onto the 96 kHz signal.

[cgrooves]

But if you send a 24 bit / 96 kHz signal, the iriver won't be able to lock onto the 96 kHz signal.

My rockbox'd iRiver will lock onto a 24/96 digital signal without any problems.  Of course it truncates the bit depth to 16, but there isn't a problem with playback on the higher sample rate.  If you intend to burn the music to a CDR, you would need to re-sample it via software, however.

[Javier Cinakowski]

Of course, taking an analog patch is undesirable, because the signal will go through an additional D/A and A/D conversion process.

not all devices analog outputs go through that additional stage....

[JasonSobel]

But if you send a 24 bit / 96 kHz signal, the iriver won't be able to lock onto the 96 kHz signal.

My rockbox'd iRiver will lock onto a 24/96 digital signal without any problems.  Of course it truncates the bit depth to 16, but there isn't a problem with playback on the higher sample rate.  If you intend to burn the music to a CDR, you would need to re-sample it via software, however.

my mistake.  I didn't realize that the iriver could record at 16bit / 96 kHz.  The vast majority of 16 bit devices are limited to 44.1 or 48 kHz, and I assumed that the iriver was as well.

Of course, taking an analog patch is undesirable, because the signal will go through an additional D/A and A/D conversion process.

not all devices analog outputs go through that additional stage....

another good point.  for example, I could give someone an analog out of my V3, and that analog signal is straight from the pre-amp.  however, while there are exceptions, the analog outputs on many of today's digital recorders are not straight analog pass-through, but rather do go through the A/D and D/A process.

[bootzila]

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[/quote]

my mistake.  I didn't realize that the iriver could record at 16bit / 96 kHz.  The vast majority of 16 bit devices are limited to 44.1 or 48 kHz, and I assumed that the iriver was as well.




I thought that you needed the increased BW to support the higher frequency, and that limited the 16 bit recorders to 48khz. Does the Iriver also change the frequency of the recording appropriately?  I have a Berringer Ultramatch that will take any signal and trunkate it to 16/44.1 I think, but it may be limited to 20bits since it is old.  Also I remember reading the M1's would also take a 20 or 24bit signal.  I will have to pull out and try.  Just picked up an R44, but my taping partner has had it, and now it is my turn to play.  Will let you know the results.  BTW, is there any way to use the V3 as a dithering device in the post-production realm, or do you still have to buy wavelab to get the UV22HR plug in?  Is there something better these days?

[H₂O]

Bit Depth is independent of Sampling rate in PCM recording.

Pioneer released a handful of DAT decks in the 90's that supported 16bit 96Khz Sampling (you can actually see the 96Khz mode on the display of Tascam DA-20's, Fostex D-5's, and Otari (can't remember model) - although the decks do not use this mode - since they where built by Pioneer (or parent company) using the same display as at least one of these Pioneer models).

And Tascam released the DA-45HR in the late 90's that supports 24bit 48Khz.

If the Bit Depth is higher than the hardware supports in most cases the signal is truncated.

If the Sample Rate is higher than the hardware supports then the recorder should not sync and will either record accelerated audio (i.e. write 48Khz WAV files when the signal is 96Khz - will sound in slow motion and when fixed with a WAV header fix program will realign to 96Khz and sound fine) or nothing at all (i.e. won't find a signal).

Nice that the iRiver supports 96Khz.