Topic: musician with a life's dream of being a taper has a gear question...

[hopturn]

hello,
i'm a 34 year old musician and teacher.  i've shared the stage with some pretty interesting musicians, and have got to open for many big names that i wish i could've recorded.  since i'm a bassist mainly, i bought the new Zoom H4n because of it's multitrack capabilities and ease-of-use (to me, at least) which will aid me in various ways as a musician. 

that being said, i want to make it into a pretty good field recorder too.  can i run better mic's straight into the plug-and-play input and power them (for stealthy recordings)?  how can i make this into a great recording unit, as opposed to an alright recording unit...and please remember that i have to spend most of my money on music gear...hey, it pays the bills.  i have good ears for music, so i don't mind spending enough money on something decent as long as the mics are cost-effective.  can't afford $1000 mics when i need a new standup bass this year.

anyway, i'm at a freaking loss.  please, real tapers of the universe, help me figure this out.  any advice you have on how i can create this thing please let me know...i just want to document some of these bands that i get introduced to before it's too late and i have to start working at a guitar center.

later,

hopturn

[sunjan]

since i'm a bassist mainly, i bought the new Zoom H4n because of it's multitrack capabilities and ease-of-use (to me, at least) which will aid me in various ways as a musician. 

that being said, i want to make it into a pretty good field recorder too.  can i run better mic's straight into the plug-and-play input and power them (for stealthy recordings)? 

+T for taking the plunge and trying out new gear. Since H4n is just shipping, not many mics have been tried and tested IRL yet.

I found two reviews:
http://www.bradlinder.net/2009/03/zoom-h4n-external-mic-tests.html
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/message/36429
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/messages/36429?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

XLR with phantom seems to suffer from limited battery life and fairly high background noise. Both reviews mention the 1/8" input (mic in + plug-in power?) to be quieter.

I can't say whether the plug-in power provided will be enough to power the common mics we use. Neither can I vouch for how clean the gain is, comparing to using an outboard pre.

But for stealth, you should take a look at the Church cardioids as a starting point. Several users here have been able to run them with plug-in power with the R09. If the voltage provided by the H4n is similar, you should be OK.

[stevetoney]

Yes, Church CA-14 cardiods or omni's (depending on how you will predominantly be recording) are in my opinion the best sounding, lowest cost mics out there.  Don't be fooled by the size.  They sound outstanding, as you can hear for yourself by linking to the following website and conducting a search for sound samples by searching on the term 'ca-14'. 

www.archive.org/details/etree

Details of the CA-14 cards can be found in the following link...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=103461.0

Details of the CA-14 omnis are available in the following link...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=112004.0

...and I would think that you'd probably also want to buy Chris's 9100 preamp which everyone uses with these mics and swear by. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=79928.0

Note that the preamp probably isn't absolutely necessary, but you can read for yourself in the preamp thread (many have already asked if the preamp is needed and Chris provides his feedback) whether you feel it is necessary based on the type of music that you'll be recording.  For the relatively modest cost of Chris's products, I always thought that it was kinda a no-brainer and I'd think you'd be well served buying the preamp.

I think this setup would be a perfect companion to your new Zoom recorder.  So, for just over $300 added to what you've already got in the recorder, you'd be recording super sounding shows with a setup that can almost fit in your pocket!!!

[shaggy28]

Church rocks. Inexpensive and won't let you down.

[hopturn]

thanks for the info.  i'm probably going to buy the church mics...was thinking about core sound. do you guys think that the built-in X/Y mics on the zoom h4n might be good enough for a while, or are all stock mics crappy.  i'm recording jane's addiction in charlotte verizon (my very first live recording) and i don't want to mess it up.

thanks,

hopturn

[illconditioned]

hello,
i'm a 34 year old musician and teacher.  i've shared the stage with some pretty interesting musicians, and have got to open for many big names that i wish i could've recorded.  since i'm a bassist mainly, i bought the new Zoom H4n because of it's multitrack capabilities and ease-of-use (to me, at least) which will aid me in various ways as a musician. 

that being said, i want to make it into a pretty good field recorder too.  can i run better mic's straight into the plug-and-play input and power them (for stealthy recordings)?  how can i make this into a great recording unit, as opposed to an alright recording unit...and please remember that i have to spend most of my money on music gear...hey, it pays the bills.  i have good ears for music, so i don't mind spending enough money on something decent as long as the mics are cost-effective.  can't afford $1000 mics when i need a new standup bass this year.

anyway, i'm at a freaking loss.  please, real tapers of the universe, help me figure this out.  any advice you have on how i can create this thing please let me know...i just want to document some of these bands that i get introduced to before it's too late and i have to start working at a guitar center.

later,

hopturn

Have you considered wearing mics on your hat (or over your ears)?  I don't know how it sounds on stage when you're playing, but this would be the coolest memory for you.  You could remember exactly how it sounded when you played, who you played with, etc.

I'm discovering more and more, the best recordings are ones that capture a specific memory for me, be it an intimate living room show, a family dinner, or walking my dog for the first time and meeting all the neighbours.

Welome to the world of first-person recording.  Just don't get in too deep .

  Richard

[sunjan]

thanks for the info.  i'm probably going to buy the church mics...was thinking about core sound. do you guys think that the built-in X/Y mics on the zoom h4n might be good enough for a while, or are all stock mics crappy.  i'm recording jane's addiction in charlotte verizon (my very first live recording) and i don't want to mess it up.

Not much out on the H4n internals yet, my guess it that they are roughly the same as the H4, or maybe as goos as the H2 if you're lucky.

If you have time before the show, go tape some local pub bands just to get some real life experience. Practice placement, handling, setting the levels etc. You'll be able to "size up" if the internals are good enough for you...

[hopturn]

do you think that i should have bought something else besides the zoom?  seems like tapers on here are into edirol stuff?  i've been waiting on this damn zoom for almost two months now..."due any day now" is about all i've heard. BTW: thanks for your input so far...i'm fully intending on buying the church mics anyway, simply because they're more stealthy.  when i'm onstage, i'll probably leave the recorder by the soundman, but i don't want it to draw too much attention.  also, which would you take with you to a desert island if you could only pick one: omni's or cardiod's? a desert island with a very loud funk band playing onstage, that is.

as far as your suggestion that i wear them (i guess you're referring to the binaural mic technique) that's freaking genius in a glass! i never thought of that. 

man, i think i'm really going to get into this.

hopturn

[sunjan]

do you think that i should have bought something else besides the zoom
also, which would you take with you to a desert island if you could only pick one: omni's or cardiod's? a desert island with a very loud funk band playing onstage, that is.

When any new gear (like the H4n) is launched, there's always a trial'n error phase when the buyers have to test whether it's useful for live taping. Good specs on paper doesn't necessarily mean that everything works fine in a field situation.
After launch,any issues are usually revealed within the first 3 months or so. Background noise level, battery life not up to specs, noisy gain, input jacks badly soldered, hum/dropouts/glitches etc...
You decide whether you want to buy into that timeframe, or if you're willing to wait for the early adopters to find out for you. 

If the desert island has a concert hall with a symphonic orchestra, bring omnis. If it has a rock club, bring cards. Outdoor festival - omnis or hypers depending on location and levels. 

[stevetoney]

I'd say that zoom looks plenty fine for what you want to do.  Prior to that latest zoom model, I'd say that people on this list found the other products to provide more of what they wanted in a recorder, so that's probably why you see more people discussing edirol.  But it looks to me like the newest zoom has been upgraded to compete with these others...and in fact it does offer some attractive features that others might not.

Regarding the internal mics, sanjay's suggestions are good (try them out and see if they meet your own desires).  The chances are probably decent that you will be less than pleased...this based on the results that others have gotten with other products that have built in microphones.  Having said that, I do think that the sound from these can be acceptable...it's just that with a pair of external mics like the CA-14's you'll get so much better sound.

[hopturn]

great advice...thanks.  one last question, how can one tell if i need to buy the church preamp or not?  the zoom has plug-in power, but i'm not sure if it can power the ca-14's.

[cybergaloot]

great advice...thanks.  one last question, how can one tell if i need to buy the church preamp or not?  the zoom has plug-in power, but i'm not sure if it can power the ca-14's.

Chris Church will answer any questions you have about his gear:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;u=14500
PM him but he may be a bit slow in responding, give him time. If he doesn't respond, ask again. He is busy making some changes to his business so he's probably very distracted at the moment. He also says he has some new products coming out sooner or later.

I tested both the CA-14 omnis and CA-14 cards, they are fine mics. I'm planning on getting a pair myself soon. If nothing else they are cheap enough to keep around as backup mics but many people are finding them to be good primary mics.

[boyacrobat]

you need the church pre amp if you get his mics
i have them and love them
his pre amp provides the proper voltage required to power the mics
all in one box, nice and neat.

plug output of preamp into line in on the zoom
dont go mic in and forget about the int mics
that come with the zoom

havnt got the zoom but make sure you have a line input
on it, otherwise turf it

if i was the only one on the island with the band i would use the omnis
but if there was a crowd on the island gig i would use cards c-14.

muso taper also , clipped to collar when playing moving around
matrix with soundboard for trippy mixes with band members talking while playing
i travel much on stage to all members looking for soundbites off from pa .

i clip 4 all over accoustic for extra resonance to recordings
love it

g

[cybergaloot]

I do have an H2. It does have a line-in. I have gotten decent recordings using Church-Audio CA-11's>CA-9000 preamp>H2 line-in. The internal mics are ok in some circumstances but the Church-Audio setup will blow them away. I'd recommend spending the extra money and getting the CA-14 mics and a CA-9100 preamp, its worth the added cost from what I've heard. I haven't actually used a CA-9100 myself but I have run both the omni and cardioid CA-14's into the H2 via my CA-9000 with decent results. Same with the CAFS mics.