Topic: New Taper_Basics and Advice?

[hieye]

Hi all,

1)  Going to New Orleans and would like to record music there.  Genres to record in the future (slack key Hawaiian, jazz, folk, primarily acoustic small venue settings).

2)  ONLY want stealth gear (no board capture, tripods, huge mics, etc)

3)  Budget and equipment ($500 max):  Looking at the Olympus LS-10 at present

Opinions of the Olympus LS-10?  Recommendations for a durable recorder in my budget?

Are the onboard mics for the Olymputs acceptable?  If not, recommendations for mics? 

Any other input or opinion? 

Thank you all in advance!

[rjp]

I'm an LS-10 owner. Overall, I like it, in spite of some limitations.

Pluses:

• Small size
• Excellent build quality
• Long battery life (LS-11 lasts longer)
• Easy-to-navigate menus and good display

Minuses:

• Mics are OK, but could be better (LS-11 reportedly improved)
• Small, hard-to-read level control
• Slow USB interface
• Possibility of hum with stealth mics (see below)

I haven't been able to determine if the hum problem (~350 Hz square wave hum) is unique to my LS-10 or not. Basically, if I'm using external mics, and the capsules or cord are close to the LCD or the mics are on my body and the LCD faces my body, and I'm not physically touching the recorder, I'll get the hum. Before I figured this out, I had a few pulls ruined by it - all my attempts at filtering it have gone nowhere. When I position the recorder correctly, I get no hum whatsoever.

The built-in mics are a bit bass-deficient - I normally EQ the bass upward to compensate. Some here have said that they flat-out hate the LS-10 mics, but I'm not one of them. The general wisdom here in any case is that internal mics are more of a last resort for when externals can't be used.

When I use Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2 in-ear mics, I get the best results by NOT equalizing anything, and the same goes for AKG Perception 170 > E-MU 0404 USB > analog out > LS-10 line in.

The budget AKGs are noticeably better than the internals (and provide the option of working with a variety of patterns), but they're very unstealthy and require an external preamp.

In spite of my general dislike of Sony (rootkits, anyone?), if I were starting over, I'd probably go with the Sony PCM-M10 for small and stealthy. In a radical departure from typical Sony practice, the M10 accepts standard MicroSD cards.

The Marantz PMD661 or Edirol R44 would be my top candidates for phantom-powered mics if I were starting from scratch, but at this point (when finances permit) I'd more likely stick with the LS-10 and add a Naiant Littlebox to provide better portability with the big mics than the E-MU box.

[hieye]

Thank you very much for the info.  If anyone might assist with a few more questions:

Why the Sony PC-M10 over the Olympus LS-10?

What other mics are recommended for stealth recording?  Do I need a powered mic for what I want to do?

I'm probably more interested in recording directly to MP3 (vs a non compressed file).  I not such an audiophile, and will most likely simply import to iTunes/iPod.  Any comment on the value of recording to an uncompressed format and then ripping to MP3?  What would you use to rip to MP3 easily (Windows).   

I do not really want to edit my recordings much?  I would like to simply separate the recording by individual songs.  What software is recommended to do this easily (Windows)?

Thanks for any additional opinion!

[stevetoney]

This might be helpful...maybe not.

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/audio/portable-recorder-comparison/

Generally, external mics are going to be better for you.  Yes, external powering will also be a better option because it will ensure that your mics have adequate phantom power not to overload.  Internal power supplied from the mic jack might be sufficient, but it might not be sufficient.  Only way to be sure for all recording possibilities is to go ahead and bit the bullet and buy a battery box or preamp to power the mics from an external source.

Regarding mics...consider Church Audio CA-14.  Hands down the best bang-for-the buck mics available ($129 for a pair...check the retail forum)

Regarding your comment on file compression, you're asking the wrong group here because very few people would buy into any situation where MP3 are involved.  On this list, MP3 is a four-letter word because we're constantly seeking the highest quality sound we can get, even if we are often talking minimum investment.

If you're gonna go to the effort of getting a recording and spending some amount of money to get a decent quality recording, then why would you want to immediately degrade the quality of that recording by recording in MP3 format?  Up to you, but I can't comment on the quality of how a certain recorder encodes an MP3 file because I've never recorded to, nor will I ever record directly to MP3.

PS:  It has nothing to do with being an audiophile.  It has to do with getting a decent quality recording as a source from which to work.  If you have crap at the start, you can't recover it after the fact, but you can always back off from a better sounding source to a lower quality compression scheme after the fact.

PSS:  You'll probably still need a basic digital audio workstation software for doing some basic editing of the recorded file, like cutting crap from the beginning and end of a recording, fades, etc.  There's free software out there for that (I think audacity is free, but I don't use it so I'm not sure).  The track split software most use around here is called CDWave because it's quick, cheap and does a great job managing tracksplits so there are no sector boundary errors...SBEs...don't ask me what they are, I just know how to avoid them.

[hieye]

Thank you for the input!

I think I'm leaning towards the Sony PC M10. 

Church Audio seems highly recommended for mics.  I'll probably do this.  I'll hold off on the battery box for now and see how it goes. 

Good advice on the recording to MP3.  I'll probably do a lossless recording and rip to MP3 for portability. 

As a newbie taper, do I need anything else at this point?

This is a very good forum.  Thanks for for any additional input. 

[stevetoney]

Only additional advice is that before you go to New Orleans but after you get the gear, you should practice using it, including turning your stereo up and simulating recording some music.  It all might seem pretty straight forward, but there's something about being there that causes things to go wrong.  The more you can get accustomed to the gear, where the buttons are, how many times you have to press record before it actaully starts recording (you often have to press it twice...first for record monitor, second for record) etc the more you will increase your chances of success. 

Since you said you'd be doing this without a stand, study the buttons on the recorder and feel it in your hands.  Feel where the buttons are and how big they feel to you.  Then turn out the lights and see if you can operate the recorder without the benefit of sight. 

Take note of how bright the lights on the recorder are when the lights are out and estimate if that will be an issue when you're on location (use black tape if necessary to block out some lights, or put the recorder in a dark sock).

Determine how long the recording will go on a single battery charge.  How much recording time you have available on your media. 

Do your best ahead of time to see if you can make the recording fail, just so you know if there are any critical factors to be aware of to prevent a disaster of losing a recording...believe me, if it CAN happen it will.  For example, hit record and then take the batteries out and see if the recording is still there or if you lose it.  If you lose it, that might indicate the you need to stop the recording before battery power is lost or risk losing anything that's not saved. 

What happens, if anything, if cables are unplugged from the jacks while it's recording?

What happens when your recorder reaches the file size limit?  Does the recorder stop recording at that point (it shouldn't), or does it automatically continue recording onto a new file?  Some recorders will skip a second or two of music while they're writing the file, but before they start writing the new one.

[rjp]

What happens when your recorder reaches the file size limit?  Does the recorder stop recording at that point (it shouldn't), or does it automatically continue recording onto a new file?  Some recorders will skip a second or two of music while they're writing the file, but before they start writing the new one.

On that score, I can vouch for the LS-10 with up-to-date firmware - when it autosplits to a new file, the result is seamless when I join the two WAVs up in Audacity. The early-model firmware would just quit at the 2 GB limit - FAIL.

I'll agree wholeheartedly about not recording directly to MP3. Memory cards are cheap enough that you can get ridiculously long recording times even when recording WAV files -- and I have no idea how good or bad the built-in MP3 encoders are in digital recorders. It's far better to edit your recording and then convert to MP3.

[Scooter123]

You will ultimately want to edit the recordings.  The volume (db) results will be much better if the shows are recorded at fairly low volume, then boosted in a wave editor.  The idea of trying to peg the volume setting perfect on the fly would drive me crazy.  You would have to be looking at the recorder, pretty much full time for the first few minutes, and intermitently during the whole show. 

[hieye]

Thaks all for the input. 

Great info on the familiariarity aspect (particularly in the dark).

Seems like software recommended include Audacity and CDWave.  What wave editor can I use to boost the volume?   

I guess determining volume (db) is an entirely different topic which I'll likely have questions about once I settle on the recorder (most likely PCM M10). 

Cannot contact Church Audio via email at the moment.  The other stealth mic recommended was Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2.  Any comments regarding the two? 

Appreciate the insight. 

[rjp]

The other stealth mic recommended was Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2.  Any comments regarding the two? 

Audacity can boost (or reduce) volume, apply fades, filtering, equalization, etc.

Regarding the SP-TFB-2, I use those in-ear. One thing I learned, though, was to always (and I mean always) use the windscreens - otherwise you can easily get clicks and pops from your own eardrums when you swallow. This is likely to be less of a problem with rock, but I usually record classical.

[hieye]

Thanks all, I think I'm good to go to start.  I'm sure I'll be posting more questions soon and in another subject line.  Great info!

[fmaderjr]

I think I'm leaning towards the Sony PC M10. 
Church Audio seems highly recommended for mics.  I'll probably do this.  I'll hold off on the battery box for now and see how it goes. 
As a newbie taper, do I need anything else at this point?

YES! You need the battery box (or a ST-9100 preamp)! The M-10 (as well as most recorders) won't provide the CA-14's the minimum of 5 volts they need for optimal performance.

The Church Audio battery box is very small and not very expensive. Get one.

Test recordings without a box may sound fine but when recording something loud, you never know when you'll get some distortion. It's not worth trying to do without a box. You'll eventually ruin a recording that was important to you and wind up getting one anyway.

[hieye]

Thank you all.  Final purchase:

Sony PCM M10, Church Audio CA-14 mini (omni and cardiod special package) w/clips and battery box. 

New Orleans here I come! 

[Seth01]

You'll eventually ruin a recording that was important to you and wind up getting one anyway.

So true!  And once you do have a batt box or pre-amp, make sure you track how many hours you've used it for or risk having a distorted and ruined recording.  It's not worth losing a recording for a $5 battery.  Unfortunately I've learned this lesson the hard way.