Topic: Schoeps M-S setup

[Muzeon]

Hi all,

This is my first post. Been scouring through the search, don't think I found this question... I am trying to build a M-S setup for sound effects and field recording. Found a used Schoeps MK-41, KCY cable (16 ft), and Schoeps VMS 5U setup. Thinking about buying a MK-8 seperately. Since I will use it handheld most often, I talked to Redding Audio, they recommend getting a Schoeps AMS suspension so the junction box for the KCY can be mounted to the suspension, then buy the Rycote Stereo entended Ball gag windshield, windjammer, seperately.

However, they sounded like this is the first time they heard of this setup (presume most often people use CCMs, or if MKs use in conjunction with the CMCs).

Wonder before I go down this road (lots of money), anyone have similar setup like this? How did it work out? Please keep in mind, I need a M-S matrix to feed into my portable Sony PCM-D1 (with MLR adapter).

On the other hand, am considering the Sennheiser MKH 8050, with Sound Devices 302. But since there is still no work from Sennheiser about the release for MKH8030 (figure8), may not work out. Overall, brand NEW Sennheiser/SD setup is still cheaper than the used Schoeps setup (probably 6 to 8 years old?).

Just trying to get thoughts - like a compact rig, but not sensitive to handling noise (cable sensitivity). Hope I'm making my questions clear. Thanks alot!!!

[stevetoney]

Welcome to taperssection!

You cover lots of ground with your post with a few broad questions.  I'll try to provide some thoughts and impressions on your post...

First off, you didn't say that you were open to any options other than M/S recording, so since the Sennheiser microphone option doesn't currently have a figure 8 available, I'd say that's not an option for you.  While it might be less money, holding out in hopes that they'll release a Figure 8 soon is not a good strategy because, as these things go, it could be a long time before this happens.  I can't say for you how much money saved is 'worth it' but in my opinion you shouldn't let buying used versus new sway your opinion.  Used Schoeps gear is great and should work for you just as well as new gear.  My recommendation is to assess the sound of the gear and let that be the deciding factor for you rather than whether you are able to buy new versus used.

As far as the Rycote setup goes, as you discovered the Rycote blimps can be very pricey.  Since I'm assuming that you aren't intending to use this in a professional setting (do looks matter to you, or are you purely interested in functionality) I think I'd try to work something up on my own which could save alot of money.  For example, you could design a handheld M/S mount from relatively inexpensive components...perhaps a vark bar, a three inch riser (to act as the handle), and two Shure donuts for example (maybe $90 or $100 total)...seems simple enough to do.  There are of course variations on the vark bar out there that would also work.  If you don't like the vark bar idea, spend a little time on B&H Photo's website doing general searches for mic mounts until you see something that looks more appealing. 

Once you have a mount design in mind, you could buy a fairly large foam windscreen and 'customize' it to fit over the two side-by-side mics.  (There are pre-fabbed M/S screens available commercially though.)  Don't forget that an electric knife can work pretty good for cutting foam, although that might be challenging for just cutting an extra hole in a single screen (for the second mic).  Finally, once you get a screen designed and built, I'd cover the whole thing with a deadrat that is custom fit to the exterior size of the screen.  For my own rats, I bought a larger pair and then cut the ends off to the proper size and used my sewing machine to re-close the ends.  You can buy inexpensive generic sized screens and 'micmuffs' from windtech.  Google 'windtech' (olsen audio group) and you'll find their size selection charts.

Some people claim that you need the air space around the outside of the mics such as provided by the Rycote blimp.  I don't really agree.  Most live music recordists use screens that don't have an air space and they seem to work just fine.  Anyway, mic capsules provide an airspace within the capsule...I use that as my argument for those that insist that Rycotes are better because of the airspace.

[Muzeon]

Thanks for the tips on building the Windshield and suspension! I'll look into it, but am using it in professional, but my main concern is least handling noise, since the work I do involves lots of hand held situations.

Well, just bought the used rig tonight, with MK41, VMS5U and KCY cable. Now I need to get myself MK8 or MK6, and a blimp! Very quiet (low noise) mic and preamp!

[Gutbucket]

Some people claim that you need the air space around the outside of the mics such as provided by the Rycote blimp.  I don't really agree.  Most live music recordists use screens that don't have an air space and they seem to work just fine.  Anyway, mic capsules provide an airspace within the capsule...I use that as my argument for those that insist that Rycotes are better because of the airspace.

Airspace is the key, foam windcreens work on traped airspace as well, just trapped inside the foam.  You can add the experice of Mr. Jörg Wuttke himself in support of your argument for foam vs blimps.  Details here- http://web.archive.org/web/20050819052458/http://www.filmebase.pt/Wind.html His conclusion is to always use a foam windscreen on pressure omnis.  He also recommends foam screens on directional mics where ever possible, as long as the foam offers enough protection for wind turbulence.  The high-frequency loss with a foam screen can be generally compensated for with EQ. Basket types suffer from internal reflections and complicated response errors at higher frequencies, but can offer more low frequency protection for more problematic wind with directional mics.

Interestingly, he explains that ANY windscreen reduces the directivity of a directional mic. The more effective it is at wind noise reduction, the more it screws with the polar pattern of the mic. Is I understand it, since the job of a windscreen is to reduce air velocities of turbulence around the capsule + vents, it also tends to reduce localized differences in pressure between those points which directional mics use for achieving their patterns. He explicitly warns against trying to increase effectiveness by putting a foam screen inside a basket screen when using directional mics because of the significant loss of their normal pattern.

Thanks for the tips on building the Windshield and suspension! I'll look into it, but am using it in professional, but my main concern is least handling noise, since the work I do involves lots of hand held situations.

Handling noise is all about suspensions. You might checkout the newer Rycote Lyre.

[stevetoney]

Gutbucket.  Thank you for the informative response. 

I appreciate the theory presented and I wouldn't disagree conceptually other than to suggest that, for my recording needs, I wouldn't spend hundreds extra for a Rycote blimp simply to put air around a mic capsule.  I have a really hard time believing one could listen to a recording and say 'that recording was made with a foam windscreen with no airspace', except possibly in controlled A vs. B testing which, again for my own purposes, really isn't that big a deal, since my recording is in the imperfect real world of ambient field recording where perfect recordings and complete control of variables are impossible.

[Gutbucket]

You're spot on tonedeaf,

You may have misinterpreted though..
That information confirms that you are sonically better off with foam windscreens than an expensive blimp.  The only sound-related reason to choose a blimp would be for recording in conditions that the foam screens can't handle.   That's generally not us.   If the foam screen stops the wind noise, it is the better choice regardless of cost (and since it's far less costly than a blimp, that's an easy win, win).  It bolsters your argument against the naysayers.

I do realilze that blimps are useful to pro ENG type guys (such as our new comrade Muzeon) for other reasons as well: they protect the mics and keep them, the suspension and cables tidy and snag free.  They offer more protection from light rain and don't hold dampness against the mics.  They also look cool. 

I mostly wanted to emphasize that foam is also trapping airspace, even though that airspace is 'within' the foam structure, and though it might seems less open than an empty blimp interior, the blimp is actually the one with potential 'openess' problems, not the foam.  Academic, yes.. but in your favor not against.

[stevetoney]

You're spot on tonedeaf,

You may have misinterpreted though..
That information confirms that you are sonically better off with foam windscreens than an expensive blimp. 

Sorry about that...you're of course right...I did misread your response.  Thanks Gut.  You are a great resource to this community and a wealth of knowledge! 

[DSatz]

Hey, Gutbucket--I just wanted to say, great answers here.

--best regards

[Gutbucket]

Thanks!

[NOLAfishwater]

Hey, Gutbucket--I just wanted to say, great answers here.

--best regards

this is the equivalent of getting an Academy Award. Congratulations Gutbucket

[Big Perm]

Hey, Gutbucket--I just wanted to say, great answers here.

--best regards

this is the equivalent of getting an Academy Award. Congratulations Gutbucket

LOL  or the nobel peace prize! 
a

[page]

Thanks for the tips on building the Windshield and suspension! I'll look into it, but am using it in professional, but my main concern is least handling noise, since the work I do involves lots of hand held situations.

Handling noise is all about suspensions. You might checkout the newer Rycote Lyre.

I know John will second this, but I will as well, I use the Lyre in the field and in casual testing, I seemed to get about 2-3db of handling noise less when using cables that were tied off using the lyre then a standard shockmount or shure donut (which came close). Not a scientific test at home, but an interesting result. I'm not sure I would have heard it in the environments I typically tape in, but I treat it more as insurance. ymmv, best of luck.

Hey, Gutbucket--I just wanted to say, great answers here.

--best regards

this is the equivalent of getting an Academy Award. Congratulations Gutbucket

Bingo, I don't know of a higher form of praise that could be awarded for technical knowledge here.