Topic: Need help getting started...

[Lar]

Hi everyone,

I nearly posted this in the recording gear section, but as I need info on more than just that, I put it here. If a mod feels it would be better elsewhere, please move it. Or, if I should break this up and do different topics in different sections, I can.

Anyway, after a few (needlessly, it turns out) aborted attempts at recording a show, My brother and I brought his mini-DVR to a concert held at a baseball stadium following the game. The end result was...not pretty. Seriously, the recorder was completely and absolutely wrong for a concert recording. Really, the final product sounded more like a poor audience recording from the 70's than something from 2011, and AFAIK it only records 16 kbps ( )! So, I'm coming to you experts for help (please, go easy on me! I'm a newbie!).

I'm looking for a mini digital recorder, something that I can fit in my pocket and not be stopped by security, metal detectors, etc. while entering the venue. I know the quality of these probably vary depending on price. I'm not looking to spend $1000 or anything, but a few hundred is okay. If I can get something that gives a decent recording without spending a ton, that would be great.

Regarding microphones: Are they absolutely needed for stereo recording? Will one mic do stereo, are two needed, or is there a recorder that records stereo without a mic? I mean, I know a lot of this really depends on a given device, so again, please point me in the right direction. If I could record stereo without a mic, that would be awesome. Furthermore (and I know this will probably be a dumb question) let's say I have a digital recorder with an external mic rigged through a jacket or something. Would I need to constantly keep it pointed at a speaker, the stage, etc., or would just letting it 'hang' (obviously without rubbing against a jacket, clapping into it, etc.) produce a decent result, given the noise in a venue? I know recordings using full-size equipment with mics you actually need to set-up would probably depend on the placement of the mic, would the same rules to apply to what I'd like to do?

Regarding importing a recording to PC. What are the best tools for this? Keep in mind I find Audacity somewhat complicated. Of course I would need to split the tracks, maybe do some cleaning, etc., and I'd like to make the thing lossless, so what's best for FLAC?

Lastly, actually going into a venue. If I have a small digital recorder, would a metal detector pick it up? Has anyone ever actually been physically searched/caught because of one? I would think there wouldn't be much more to a recorder's guts than there is to a cell phone, and I see plenty of people holding up digital camcorders during shows. The few times I almost recorded a show I backed off for this very reason, and each time there was pretty much nothing to worry about. What's the worst that can happen if I'm caught with it? The recorder is confiscated but I'm allowed to see the show, I'm booted with my recorder, I'm booted WITHOUT my recorder, arrested? Or does it just depend on the venue's security?

Anyway, sorry if any of this sounds dumb. It's just that besides having a cool souvenir of a show, I'd really like to give back to the boot community. I've been to some awesome concerts that haven't surfaced (yet?) that I really wish I would have at least tried to record. Even my awful first attempt is still cool as a document of a great night, it's just not something I could 'put out there'. Given the number of recent, official-release quality boots I've come across, I'd really like to contribute in some way. So, thanks in advance for any and all help, anything is very much appreciated!

[su6oxone]

I'm looking for a mini digital recorder, something that I can fit in my pocket and not be stopped by security, metal detectors, etc. while entering the venue.

Err, these devices tend to contain metal so that would be difficult.  You're best off with a small device and brushing up on your "jedi mind trick' skills. 

Regarding microphones: Are they absolutely needed for stereo recording? Will one mic do stereo, are two needed, or is there a recorder that records stereo without a mic? I mean, I know a lot of this really depends on a given device, so again, please point me in the right direction. If I could record stereo without a mic, that would be awesome. Furthermore (and I know this will probably be a dumb question) let's say I have a digital recorder with an external mic rigged through a jacket or something. Would I need to constantly keep it pointed at a speaker, the stage, etc., or would just letting it 'hang' (obviously without rubbing against a jacket, clapping into it, etc.) produce a decent result, given the noise in a venue?

It really depends on what quality level you're shooting for.  If you don't mind a shitty sounding audio for your video, then a mono mic or crappy stereo lapel mic or something to that effect might be good enough for you.  If you want good audio for your video, then those won't cut it.  Look in the 'microphone' subforum to get a better idea of what kind of low-profile microphones are out there (e.g. Church Audio, DPA 406x, etc.). 

Regarding importing a recording to PC. What are the best tools for this? Keep in mind I find Audacity somewhat complicated. Of course I would need to split the tracks, maybe do some cleaning, etc., and I'd like to make the thing lossless, so what's best for FLAC?

You might be putting the cart a bit in front of the horse.  But a lot of people like audacity for editing (I use Sound Forge myself).  CD Wave is great for track splitting and Trader's Little Helper is great for encoding flac files.  Check out the "computers... " subforum for more info/help.

Lastly, actually going into a venue. If I have a small digital recorder, would a metal detector pick it up? Has anyone ever actually been physically searched/caught because of one?

Seriously?  Of course people have been searched and caught in the past.

What's the worst that can happen if I'm caught with it? The recorder is confiscated but I'm allowed to see the show, I'm booted with my recorder, I'm booted WITHOUT my recorder, arrested? Or does it just depend on the venue's security?

If you get caught inside, you'll probably be ejected from the show or if unlucky, you may be taken off by security for God knows what sort of interrogation.  You probably won't get arrested but they may ask for your recording media (memory card, etc.), in which case it's best to give it to them.  Generally, people seem to recommend not handing over your rig unless you don't ever want to see it again.  I've never been caught stealthing a show so I can't really speak from personal experience.

Anyway, sorry if any of this sounds dumb. It's just that besides having a cool souvenir of a show, I'd really like to give back to the boot stealth taping community. I've been to some awesome concerts that haven't surfaced (yet?) that I really wish I would have at least tried to record. Even my awful first attempt is still cool as a document of a great night, it's just not something I could 'put out there'. Given the number of recent, official-release quality boots stealth tapes/videos I've come across, I'd really like to contribute in some way. So, thanks in advance for any and all help, anything is very much appreciated!

FTFY.  "Bootlegging" and so forth is rather frowned upon around here, since it implies a financial gain which is completely unacceptable for legitimate tapers (and some will argue whether or not "stealthers" are legitimate tapers, but let's not get into that now... ). 

Anyway, welcome to the forum!  (but be warned that too many questions about stealthing, especially about specific techniques, is frowned upon by many of the members here)

[swordfish]

It really depends on what quality level you're shooting for.  If you don't mind a shitty sounding audio for your video, then a mono mic or crappy stereo lapel mic or something to that effect might be good enough for you.  If you want good audio for your video, then those won't cut it.  Look in the 'microphone' subforum to get a better idea of what kind of low-profile microphones are out there (e.g. Church Audio, DPA 406x, etc.). 

I think DPA, Church Audio are not low-profile mics, instead good mics for your buck...

What's the worst that can happen if I'm caught with it? The recorder is confiscated but I'm allowed to see the show, I'm booted with my recorder, I'm booted WITHOUT my recorder, arrested? Or does it just depend on the venue's security?

FTFY.  "Bootlegging" and so forth is rather frowned upon around here, since it implies a financial gain which is completely unacceptable for legitimate tapers (and some will argue whether or not "stealthers" are legitimate tapers, but let's not get into that now... ). 

I am a stealth taper...been caught once before the show....but in Europe ther is almost no open taping....I have seen it once during a Cowboy Junkies concert in Frankfurt....and the worst part was that the tapers didn't share their recording...I asked politly after the show..and it was denied.

just m 2 cents

So stealth and share if asked and others have interest.... and don't bootleg.....

[sunjan]

I'm looking for a mini digital recorder, something that I can fit in my pocket and not be stopped by security, metal detectors, etc. while entering the venue. I know the quality of these probably vary depending on price. I'm not looking to spend $1000 or anything, but a few hundred is okay.

Depending on your budget:
Mics + powering
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141135.0
CA-14>UGLY-BB - $140
or
CA-14/CA-11>CA-UGLY/CA-9x00 - $225

Recorder
DR-05 - $92
or
M10 - $229

Regarding microphones: Are they absolutely needed for stereo recording? Will one mic do stereo, are two needed, or is there a recorder that records stereo without a mic?
...
let's say I have a digital recorder with an external mic rigged through a jacket or something. Would I need to constantly keep it pointed at a speaker, the stage, etc., or would just letting it 'hang' (obviously without rubbing against a jacket, clapping into it, etc.) produce a decent result, given the noise in a venue?

If you want quality and are afraid of getting caught, don't rely on the internal mics. There's no way around this. Think body mount, and point them at least roughly in the direction of the speakers. Omnis are more forgiving than cards, but will also take up crowd chatter.

Lastly, actually going into a venue. If I have a small digital recorder, would a metal detector pick it up? Has anyone ever actually been physically searched/caught because of one?
What's the worst that can happen if I'm caught with it? The recorder is confiscated but I'm allowed to see the show, I'm booted with my recorder, I'm booted WITHOUT my recorder, arrested?

Use the search and read about our "getting busted" stories, there's a few things to learn from past mistakes. With the gear I suggested above concealed at the right place, you should be able to walk through security with a breeze.

Depending on where you live, the law doesn't permit security to confiscate any gear. If you get caught, leave the recordning media and walk out, that's the general advice.

[Scooter123]

The best stand alone recorders without mikes recordings I've heard have been the Edirol r-O9hr and the Zoom, close in, shooting the stacks. 

The best method for arena shows is to hide in plain site, with cell phones, mp3 player, keys, wallet, blackberry, loose change, pens, keys, a dildo, camera and other crap in a fanny pack.

Internal mikes 90% of the time sound like crap.  You would be well served with, at a minimum, a small preamp and some inexpensive mikes.

[Lar]

Lastly, actually going into a venue. If I have a small digital recorder, would a metal detector pick it up? Has anyone ever actually been physically searched/caught because of one?

Seriously?  Of course people have been searched and caught in the past.

LOL I meant specifically a member here with a digital recorder. I know people have been caught, but I didn't know how much with a digital recorder.

Anyway, when I said boots, I didn't mean something that would be sold, I meant a recording that would be shared freely on DIME or whatever. I tend to just use the term boot for any recorded show in general. I would never sell. But, I apologize if I offended anyone. Didn't know it was frowned upon.

Anyway, thanks for all the info guys! Got a lot to look into! It's appreciated! Thanks again!

[F.O.Bean]

Welcome to ts.com You have found the best website out there for recording

[ryang]

Seems like most of your questions got covered, but i guess I had a few additional bits and pieces that came to mind...

I'm looking for a mini digital recorder...

You're in the early stages of this.  In my opinion you'd be far better served by buying a cheap Tascam recorder (for now) and spending the remainder on external mics (for sure) and maybe a pre-amp (depending on what styles and settings you'll be recording).

Regarding microphones...

You absolutely need a minimum of 2 mics for a stereo recording.  Most recorders have a stereo mic setup (2 mics) built in, but i doubt anyone on here would recommend relying on internals.  I do have to point out that even though you may buy/carry more gear to have external mics it's actually far easier to stealth with them than with internals, quality concerns aside.  Quality concerns included, internals pick up handling noise in the extreme on most models, so unless you're able to tripod your recorder (non-stealth) I wouldn't consider using internals even short term.  Omni's don't really need to be pointed at the stage, where-as cardoids do.  If you have to pick one for beginner-stealthing i'd with omni's, but you may be able to do both if you go a bit cheap on your first recorder.

Regarding importing a recording to PC...

Most recorders transfer from memory card to harddrive via a simple usb connection.  Any audio editor works for splitting and cleaup, but Audacity isn't a bad place to start.  Flac Front-end is pretty self-explanatory, in addition to the other options others already mentioned.

Has anyone ever actually been physically searched/caught...

As previously stated, you'd be better served by trying to trick the people than the metal detector.  I've never been booted from or refused entrance to a show in 10 years of taping.  To the best of my knowledge (check your local laws!) your gear cannot be legally confiscated.  You could be ejected from a show... or you could be offered a choice between the gear and the show... and I wouldn't recommend handing your gear over voluntarily.  That said, I did carry a broken video camera as a distraction a few times, and it was always returned to me after the show after being taken up. 
For the record, I avoid taping artists that are openly opposed, but have no respect what-so-ever for venue wishes.

In the days of tapes and minidisc I might have been willing to hand over my media, but in the age of pricey memory cards I don't know that I would.  My impression is that a venue is on very thin ice legally if they attempt to physically prevent you from leaving.

So, thanks in advance for any and all help, anything is very much appreciated!

Best of luck! You're asking in the right place.

[TNJazz]

You absolutely need a minimum of 2 mics for a stereo recording. 

Well...technically you could use a stereo mic, so you wouldn't need 2 mics in all cases. 

However, most stereo mics of good quality are fairly large, and probably not suitable for your purposes (I'm basing that on your questions about beating metal detectors...)

[paulbaptiste]

and search the multitudes of threads with the same questions.  Its not for everybody, almost everybody who starts with a minimal money rig isn't pleased with it, and will upgrade at some point.  that being said my first attempt at a "decent" rig, that i still use and pull very good recordings with is mics-AT853's, and you can get card and omni caps from it, i've stealthed/stealth with both and pulled some amazing tapes, and this with just a 9v battery box and an Iriver 120.  I don't get the 4.7k mod that everybody says is neccessary, i've never bricked a recording.  granted i don't stack tape "death" metal.  But i go to loud shows, rock shows, but more often stand a little further back and find/listen to where the sound is; occasionally in a traingle shape from the speakers from the stage, me being back there at the tip of triangle, often around the sbd, if the soundboard isn't shoved in the very rear of the room.  But above gear, which i still run (have a nicer rig, but normally run this one at the same time) can be had for $300 or less.

AT853's can be bought new at soundprofessionals under the name SP-CMC-4U, i believe still 200 new.  you can find them here normally for 150 down to 100 dollars.  or whatch them on ebay, normally ending in 25' cables, can be had for 10 bucks a piece sometimes, but then you need to send em off to get a miniplug put on (20) granted this requires time and patience.  But get a pair here for 135?? and an iriver for 80-125, and a bb box for 20 dollars and your done.  well add some adjustable mic clips to wear on your hat ect, and any decent little 1/8th extension cable if you battery box doesn't have one built on, alot of them do.  You don't need one with bass roll off.  You only "need" a preamp if you record quiet, acoustic music as you don't want to add 40db of gain on the iriver, but i've added 30 and it still sounded just fine.  IMO a great rig, small/cheap/ that you can still pull great tapes with.  I still do.

[mfrench]

[MSTaper]

You can get nice recordings with a used R-09 or similar recorder and a used set of Church Audio mics. Run 'em open or lo-pro DFC and you'll be happy! 

(posted without reading the thread so this suggestion may already have been made!) 


MSTaper