Topic: Minidisc Vs. PCM-M10 (with sample)

[sangerscorner1]

I'm curious as to what you guys (the pros) think!!


I have a SONY MZR-700 Recorder from years and years ago.  I used this with a sony ecm 717 microphone.  I never needed pro sounding audio.  Just good enough!

These recordings were pretty much awesome for what I needed them for.  My question is... a decade later.. what would be a comparable mic to the sony ecm 717 ?  I got the sony pcm 10 recorder, and I am thinking an external mic is needed. The sony ecm 717 is huge, and i think it's not sold anymore.  What would be the 2013 version of that mic? Do you think I could achieve the same quality recordings with this combo, as i did a decade ago with sony mzr700 and that mic? Thanks so much!

Heres a link to something i recorded with my minidisc/ and that sony ecm 717 mic... do you think the sony pcm could make this recording? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF2DXTWB3RU

[anr]

Could the Sony make this recording?  Yes, but there are many more factors to consider.

I used to have an ECM-717 and Sharp MD.    I didn't like the mic, although the Sharp was great and still works.  Far too "dull", which is how I'd characterise the sound of the link you provided, but that is a personal opinion, not criticism.  By far the best recordings I did with MD were with a little mic I got with my old Sony Walkman Pro.  Sometimes you just get a match that works.  Bear in mind, by necessity this was stealth taping, of predominantly acoustic music in small venues with poor sound, often with no PA.  The 717 just didn't cut it and I gave it away. 

The Sony is superb, but a decent pair of mics into your MD will be indistinguishable to most.  Source first, recording medium second in my opinion. 

[mr qpl]

I think it sounds pretty good! I don't really like the band, but the sound is pretty good, I've made worse with more expensive gear!

for a similar mic, the ecm 719 is about 70 US and I've heard some recordings that sound pretty good using it

here's one into a r-9

http://archive.org/details/mono2009-03-28.flacf

and another  couple into a sony md

http://archive.org/details/amt2004-10-28.flac16

http://archive.org/details/amt2004-10-30.flac16

both of those are pretty loud bands and the preamps and mics handle the volume OK


also, do not discount the idea of using the internal mics off the m-10. Plenty of those recordings are going around, I've heard some that also sound good, loud and quiet music. the other advantage to the internals is NO WIRES or connections to go bad.

[yousef]

I'm pretty sure the ECM-717 didn't have much of a response above 15kHz. If you had a compression algorithm that worked on that sort of basis some people would scream LOSSY! and hound you out of town...

Rather than looking for the 2013 version (presumably the 719 - which is still big and ugly) I think most people here would suggest going down the Soundpros/Church route.

Not that all my 717 recordings were bad but there was a pretty depressing failure rate for me with that mic. And even the ones I recall as being the very best now seem to have a boxy character that I don't enjoy.

[dogmusic]

do not discount the idea of using the internal mics off the m-10.

I agree. The M10 internals are underrated, and actually sound quite good. I think they need a "Burn-in" period, which is why some users give up on them too soon.

[anr]

Yousef.   Spot on, especially about the 15kHz, which is perhaps a little generous!  The way they measure these things, it was probably 3dB down at 15kHz, having rolled off from below 10kHz.   

[earmonger]

Please, do yourself a favor and get better mics.  With the PCM-M10 and a better mic you won't believe what you were missing. You'll probably get recordings just as good with the PCM-M10 internal mics as with the ECM-719.

For less than the list price of the ECM-719 you can get these little things from Sound Professionals.
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2

They are pencil eraser size. Get them with the clips, clip them to your shirt collar or a hat (so they are at the width of your ears) and enjoy. If the stuff you are recording is very loud you'll also want to get a battery module and run mics-->battery module-->Line-In (not Mic-in). Which will run you more than the price of the ECM-719 but will be well worth it.  About the only good thing about the ECM-717 was that it was very low sensitivity, so you could get away with recording loud sounds directly into Mic-in. 

If you're going to be giving the mics a lot of use,  like a few times a week, get the warranty, and you'll get a new pair of mics if they wear out in three years.  For stealth, they have very thin wires, so the warranty deal is pretty generous.

Church Audio Mics are more expensive and will take more time to arrive--Chris Church builds them all himself--but if you've got the cash and the patience they are well worth it, and get one of his battery boxes too.

The SoundPros up above are omni mics, recording everything around them, closer to the way you hear the world. The ECM-719 is directional--cardioid--and records what's in front of it to a much greater extent than what's at the back and sides. You can also find low-priced cardioids if you prefer the directional mics, but you do have to point them at your source. (The PCM-M10 mics are omni as well.) Cardioids can be useful in talky noisy crowds, but lower-priced ones also give you less bass.

Here's the technical reason a different mic will make you so much happier.

These are the specs of the ECM-719

    Directivity : Stereo uni-directional (cardioid)
    Dynamic Range : 80dB
    Effective Output Level : -47dB, ±4dB (0dB = 1V/Pa, 1kHz)
    Frequency Response : 100 to 15,000 Hz
    Maximum Sound Pressure Input Level : >110dB SPL
    Output Impedance : 1.5 kohms ±30%, unbalanced
    Output Plug : L-shaped stereo miniplug (gold-plated)
    Type : One-point stereo, Back electret condenser microphone

The frequency response of your ears is 20-20,000 Hz.  The lowest note on a piano is 27.5 Hz. Each time you double the Hz you go up an octave, so that mic is not picking up 27.5...or 55...or most of the next octave up the piano. A piano only has 7 octaves (plus a few notes) so think of all that the old mic was missing. It was really more suitable for people talking than for music. 

And "dull," the description used in a previous post, probably means that a lack of the higher frequencies that give the recording crispness and a sense of space.  The ECM-717, and probably the 719,  was also quite a noisy mic, though it's not something you'd notice in a recording of loud music.

The SoundPros, and Church Audio mics, are 20-20,000 Hz. You'll hear the difference. And bonus: Even if you are recording mp3 at 320kbps on the PCM-M10--instead of the CD-quality .wav you can also use--that's better quality than SP was on the minidisc (though some people did love that particular way of compressing music)  and it's a world better than LP.