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Offline RedRocketSr

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Some general starting out questions...
« on: February 19, 2006, 04:21:08 PM »
thanks in advance... I'm just getting ready to start taping (haven't taped anything yet). I've got my JB3, a pair of at831s (sp-cmc-2) and a battery box (sp-spsb-1) with bass roll off and dual sliders. Tried really cranking the living room stereo just to make sure everything works, but levels are really, really low.

Here's my questions;

1) my menu system doesn't match the manual on the JB3 CD. specifically, I can't find where/how to turn on 'monitor listening' where I can listen with headphones as I tape.

2) everything i've read says don't turn the gain up. is there a different way to increase the levels? or will the levels actually come across higher in a real concert?

3) i see on etree some tapers note the amount of bass roll off they set. How do they know that? my battery box with bass roll off only has sliders for adjustment, but no meters.

appreciate it. i am trying to get everything good to go so i can tape Stephen Kellogg at The Bottleneck on 3/01.
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Offline Humbug

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2006, 06:16:17 PM »
thanks in advance... I'm just getting ready to start taping (haven't taped anything yet). I've got my JB3, a pair of at831s (sp-cmc-2) and a battery box (sp-spsb-1) with bass roll off and dual sliders. Tried really cranking the living room stereo just to make sure everything works, but levels are really, really low.

Here's my questions;

1) my menu system doesn't match the manual on the JB3 CD. specifically, I can't find where/how to turn on 'monitor listening' where I can listen with headphones as I tape.

Unlikely you'll be able to hear anything useful on 'phones while the gig is on. Don't worry about it till after the gig.

Quote
2) everything i've read says don't turn the gain up. is there a different way to increase the levels? or will the levels actually come across higher in a real concert?

At an electric gig? Yes, way higher than your stereo. You're unlikely to overload your setup unless you are stack taping, so just set gain (on the JB3) to 0dB and adjust later in post editing.

Quote
3) i see on etree some tapers note the amount of bass roll off they set. How do they know that? my battery box with bass roll off only has sliders for adjustment, but no meters.

appreciate it. i am trying to get everything good to go so i can tape Stephen Kellogg at The Bottleneck on 3/01.

Isnt the bass roll off set by the switches? See the manual that came with the box for details. The sliders are the volume controls. IMHO both are pretty useless with your setup, just set roll off to 16Hz and (battery box slider) levels to max. If its very very bassy at the gig, 888Hz might be useful, otherwise a mild bass roll off in post editing is the way to go.

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RebelRebel

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2006, 07:36:15 PM »

At an electric gig? Yes, way higher than your stereo.

:lol:

Offline SparkE!

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2006, 08:55:43 PM »
thanks in advance... I'm just getting ready to start taping (haven't taped anything yet). I've got my JB3, a pair of at831s (sp-cmc-2) and a battery box (sp-spsb-1) with bass roll off and dual sliders. Tried really cranking the living room stereo just to make sure everything works, but levels are really, really low.

Here's my questions;

1) my menu system doesn't match the manual on the JB3 CD. specifically, I can't find where/how to turn on 'monitor listening' where I can listen with headphones as I tape.

2) everything i've read says don't turn the gain up. is there a different way to increase the levels? or will the levels actually come across higher in a real concert?

3) i see on etree some tapers note the amount of bass roll off they set. How do they know that? my battery box with bass roll off only has sliders for adjustment, but no meters.

appreciate it. i am trying to get everything good to go so i can tape Stephen Kellogg at The Bottleneck on 3/01.

If you have sliders, those are for level control, not bass rolloff.  Adjustable bass rolloff is a series of switches.  If you know the input impedance of your recorder, you can predict the amount of bass rolloff.

Those sliders are best used to match your mics to each other.  Set your least sensitive mic to full volume and back the other off until you get the same levels on both mics when both mics are as close to each other as possible.  You can do that by looking at the levels on the JB3 and adjusting only one channel down from the max so that both channels are matched.

Also, bass rolloff is overrated.  The guys who make battery boxes like to sell it because they can use cheaper coupling capacitors.  The larger values of coupling caps cost more.  They use smaller coupling caps in order to roll off the bass (and save on their bill of materials). Now, if you are talking switchable bass rolloff, there is no savings on the bill of materials because they still have to include the larger coupling caps for when you have bass rollof disabled. If you have the switchable bass rolloff, I'd recommend leaving it off unless you have a very good reason to use it.  I've only found one venue where I actually need to use bass rolloff and that's The Blue Note in Columbia, MO.  That's a big, boomy room with very little sound damping and lots of hard surfaces.  The resonances of the room are in the bass part of the audio spectrum and it helps to roll off the bass a bit.  Everywhere else I've recorded doesn't need any rolloff.  You will not need bass rolloff at The Bottleneck.  They've actually done a pretty good job of equalizing that room, both in amplitude and in phase, especially if you record from near the soundboard.  The sweet spot is about 8 to 10 feet in front of the soundboard, but it's hard to record from there unless you are wearing the mics.  It's hard to protect a stand at that location.  There's just too much foot traffic.  It can get pretty chatty right there too.

In order to monitor, just plug headphones in and use them.  Be aware that using your headphones will decrease your battery life, though.  Unless you are using well sealed (barbed) ear buds or some really heavy over-the-ear sealed headphones, you're not going to hear much on the headphones.  I've heard people that say they get good results with Eymotics ER-4 or ER-6 earbuds.  I've used Sony MDR-EX51LP and MDR-EX71SL earbuds and they work pretty well too, but not quite as well as the Etymotics.  If you are looking for full sized headphones, look for ones that claim to be for DJ's or that say they are for monitoring.  Open air or vented headphones are useless for live monitoring.

As long as you are going line in on your JB3, just set your gain as high as you can without clipping.  You can increase the levels in post processing, but you'll get better S/N if you use the highest levels without clipping at the time you make the recording.  If you want to know where to set your levels, stick your mics in your mouth (yes, really) and hum as loud as you can.  That's about as loud at the mics as you will ever get in a show setting.  If you don't believe me, have someone put their mouth over your ear and hum as loud as they can.  That's loud, really loud.
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Offline rdflash

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2006, 09:16:07 PM »
Quote
If you want to know where to set your levels, stick your mics in your mouth (yes, really) and hum as loud as you can.  That's about as loud at the mics as you will ever get in a show setting.  If you don't believe me, have someone put their mouth over your ear and hum as loud as they can.  That's loud, really loud

haha, this just strikes me as hilarious "if you dont believe me..."

+ T for good insight
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Offline RedRocketSr

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2006, 09:32:03 PM »
wow, very cool info.. i truly appreciate.. keep it coming.

SparkE!, sounds like you live local to KC.. I'm in Liberty. There's a lot of good shows on 3/01, are you going to any?
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Offline SparkE!

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2006, 12:56:40 PM »
wow, very cool info.. i truly appreciate.. keep it coming.

SparkE!, sounds like you live local to KC.. I'm in Liberty. There's a lot of good shows on 3/01, are you going to any?

Yeah, I live near KC on the Kansas side.  I don't have any upcoming shows that I know of.  I'm pretty busy right now trying to move from one house to another and all the associated stuff that goes with that.  I see this next year as pretty sparse in terms of my recording activities.
How'm I supposed to read your lips when you're talkin' out your ass? - Lern Tilton

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Offline RedRocketSr

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2006, 02:06:39 AM »
just an update... i might be in for a break in that the band i am going to tape (my first taping) is having an in-store set about 4 hours before the show. So i'll tape that as a practice. I'll then play the in-store back through my car stereo just to see how poorly i did. There's a rumor that I might be able to get into the sound check, so that'll be another opportunity for me to try and get a good setup.

thanks for everyone's help.
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Offline RedRocketSr

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2006, 03:01:38 PM »
Just an update (like anyone was waiting..  ;D ).

The taping went great. thanks to everyone's help, I was well prepared and it sounds pretty good.

I realize that I will definetly need a tripod. I think I want at least a 10' reach. Any recommendations?
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Offline SparkE!

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2006, 06:18:05 PM »
Just an update (like anyone was waiting..  ;D ).

The taping went great. thanks to everyone's help, I was well prepared and it sounds pretty good.

I realize that I will definetly need a tripod. I think I want at least a 10' reach. Any recommendations?

Amvona sells Dynatran light stands on eBay that a lot of people around here swear by.  They are air cushioned so they don't drop suddenly if a stand lock is released.  Personally, I prefer the Bogen light stands.  Either way, you end up with a 5/8" stud on top of your stand that you must convert to 3/8" thread with an adapter that you can purchase from Cascade Media or BH Photo or any number of other places.  Then you convert the 3/8" thread to 5/8" 27tpi microphone thread with another adapter you can buy at the same place that you got the 5/8" stud to 3/8" adapter.  Seems like a lot of adapters, but it really is the best way to go.  Regular mic stands will top out at about 6 1/2 feet.  Most people go with a 9 foot stand. I think the one I have will go to 12 foot, but I've never run it over about 8 feet.  Bogen makes one that will go to a little over 16 feet, I think, but that's way overkill for use in bars.

Do some searching on ts.com for "light stand" and you'll find a huge amount of information.  (Don't take my advice without looking at what others have already said many times in many of the threads on here.)
How'm I supposed to read your lips when you're talkin' out your ass? - Lern Tilton

Ignorance in audio is exceeded only by our collective willingness to embrace and foster it. -  Srajan Ebaen

Offline RedRocketSr

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2006, 06:33:34 PM »
very cool... and what features do most tapers use?
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Offline TheWildKindness

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2006, 09:41:40 PM »
very cool... and what features do most tapers use?

Glad to hear that everything went well for you! I use the same set-up as you and have pulled some good recordings. Not sure where you read that you shouldn't turn the gain up. I have turned mine up from 4db all the way to 12db and have not run into any problems. Just watch the meters and you'll always be fine.

 As far as bass roll-off...it seems like a good option, but I think I have only ever used it once...and I'm not even sure it helped.

 Also, like SparkE said...if you plan on using headphones, be warned that having the volume all the way up will eat up your batteries quicker.

 What are you mounting the mics on? I use this: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-GNA-3 and I like it. You could probably come up with/or make something on your own for less money though. I know some people use a ruler that they thread onto a mic stand.

 Anyway, welcome aboard...this is a great community and always very helpful.
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Offline RedRocketSr

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2006, 10:11:40 PM »
thanks... i got the no gain off of http://toddh.net/music/njb/ which is linked off of here. But I was lucky, a taper friend was there and he set me straight.

the opener was an acoustic woman. she was pretty quiet, so we set gain at +12. Then Stephen Kellogg and the Sixers came on and we dropped down to +6. Both came out great. bass roll-off was set at 69.

I clipped on to his stand (and I'll dig my old one out) and recorded at about 8'.

I'll make my own mic mount just as I made my own battery case cover. An old clear jewel case cut to match the original cover, except with cut outs for the sliders and the dip switches. I just wanted to protect the rest of the internals.

I'm taping at a coffee house next Tuesday, so I'm clipping to a mini 5" flexible leg camera tripod with a small aluminum crossbar that will set on the table.

if (and I doubt anyone will be) anyone is interested in hearing how it turned out, here's the link..
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=34360

thanks...
SP-CMC2 --> SP-SPSB1 --> JB3

Offline TheWildKindness

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Re: Some general starting out questions...
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2006, 11:05:41 PM »
thanks... i got the no gain off of http://toddh.net/music/njb/ which is linked off of here. But I was lucky, a taper friend was there and he set me straight.

the opener was an acoustic woman. she was pretty quiet, so we set gain at +12. Then Stephen Kellogg and the Sixers came on and we dropped down to +6. Both came out great. bass roll-off was set at 69.

I clipped on to his stand (and I'll dig my old one out) and recorded at about 8'.

I'll make my own mic mount just as I made my own battery case cover. An old clear jewel case cut to match the original cover, except with cut outs for the sliders and the dip switches. I just wanted to protect the rest of the internals.

I'm taping at a coffee house next Tuesday, so I'm clipping to a mini 5" flexible leg camera tripod with a small aluminum crossbar that will set on the table.

if (and I doubt anyone will be) anyone is interested in hearing how it turned out, here's the link..
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=34360

thanks...

 Sounds like your picking it up just fine. It's fun isn't it?

 You will be fine with the tripod/aluminum crossbar at the coffee shop...but I used that method once or twice at a friends show (typical rock band...which didn't seem to bass heavy), but the bass shocked the table/stand and the whole recording was ruined.
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