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Offline cleantone

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format question for CD duplication
« on: May 07, 2006, 12:52:15 PM »
Most stuff I work for release gets mastered at real mastering suites. I had done a project at the end of last year I think. I got a phone call today about the duplication. This was something I had mixed and mastered. They rushed my work but seemingly have been dragging ass about duplcation. This makes no sense at all to me. Anyway, I gave them an audio CDR and a data CDR with AIFF files I think. I might have even given them 2 audio CDR's telling them it was important to treat the masters like gold. I have done other projects that I mastered and had no problems with duplication. The client sent the audio disk to the dupers and they got back saying there was a problem with it. I'm not surprised since it is CDR and they had it for 4 months or more. The dupers said it would be $65 extra to use the data disk. I was a little surprised at this. I have to wonder if it was anything to do with the way I made the disk. I just made it as they wanted in terms of space between the songs. I burn at 2x and DAO with Toast. This should be proper as far as I know. They probably scratched the disk or somthing eh? Anyone have any info on this stuff? Search didn't find the answers I was looking for.

Thanks
« Last Edit: May 07, 2006, 01:04:34 PM by cleantone »
ISO: your recordings of The Slip, Surprise Me Mr. Davis and The Barr Brothers. pm me please.

Offline Chuck

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2006, 02:29:05 PM »
I work in a studio at a teleconferencing company and we send out master CD's for mass duplication made with Adaptec Easy CD Creator. (At home, I prefer Nero.) We run everything through Waves L1 Maximizer to set all the peaks at .5 (for no digital overs). Then burn them at 4x on Plextor burners in audio DAO mode with TY 74 minute CD-Rs. (We have found some mass duplicators don't like 80 minute CD-R's for masters) We send the masters out in the flexible plastic type hinged clam-shell cases. This type of case doesn't crack and provides enough protection that the disc always arrives safe. On that plastic clam shell, we write (with a Sharpie) the number tracks, the length of each track and the total program length. We never have any problems with the procedure we have in place.

I'd call the duplicator and ask them what was wrong with what you sent. That way, you'll know for sure what they didn't like so you won't do that same thing again.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline cleantone

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2006, 02:39:03 PM »
Thanks for the reply.

Quote
I'd call the duplicator and ask them what was wrong with what you sent. That way, you'll know for sure what they didn't like so you won't do that same thing again.

I sent an email already figuring they wont be there on a Sunday. I guess I have to assume they dirtied up the disc, or sratched it. I have been poking around and found info that said sometimes a RW drive isn't a good idea for making a master. Obviously not a CDRW but even CDDA made in a RW capable drive.
ISO: your recordings of The Slip, Surprise Me Mr. Davis and The Barr Brothers. pm me please.

RebelRebel

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2006, 05:17:05 PM »
The duplication houses here  take only DDP CDRs. I thought that was the industry standard for duplication plants???
I use Sequoia which burns them natively.

doesnt your DAW have the ability to create a DDP image? Ive never even heard of sending a data or audio cd.



« Last Edit: May 07, 2006, 05:21:41 PM by Teddy »

Offline Chuck

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2006, 05:39:25 PM »
The duplication houses here  take only DDP CDRs. I thought that was the industry standard for duplication plants???
I use Sequoia which burns them natively.

doesnt your DAW have the ability to create a DDP image? Ive never even heard of sending a data or audio cd.





A DDP image will save the duplication house a step and is technically the best way to go for certain things, but you can't fit more than 69 minutes of audio on a typical 80 minute CD-R along with the DDP image info. You could write a DDP image to a DVD-R, and label it properly. I send out audio CD masters all the time and have never had a problem. Again, the best thing to do, is ask the duplication facility what they require.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

RebelRebel

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2006, 05:43:57 PM »
The duplication houses here  take only DDP CDRs. I thought that was the industry standard for duplication plants???
I use Sequoia which burns them natively.

doesnt your DAW have the ability to create a DDP image? Ive never even heard of sending a data or audio cd.





A DDP image will save the duplication house a step and is technically the best way to go for certain things, but you can't fit more than 69 minutes of audio on a typical 80 minute CD-R along with the DDP image info. You could write a DDP image to a DVD-R, and label it properly. I send out audio CD masters all the time and have never had a problem. Again, the best thing to do, is ask the duplication facility what they require.


thats what I do, burn DDP to DVD-R.
The reason I asked is because the plants(4 of them that I use) here say that normal Audio CDs are useless.I tried sending them a Audio CD and they asked me what the hell were they supposed to do with it.  :P
 Thanks for the info. I had no idea..

teddy

Offline cleantone

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2006, 11:28:00 AM »
They got back to me with this:

Quote
Clinton
we typically don't do a glass master for duplication unless over 2000 pcs.
 
what we provide is an exact duplicate of the master.  CDR would work just fine as a master, burned at any speed.  As long as the master meets your needs, the duplicates should too.
 
If ***** has one of the duplicates from the previous job, we could use that as a master as well.

They can use any old CDR but can't use the data disk without a $65 dollar fee.  ::)

I asked if they wanted two masters to compare potential read error. This is something I found from other services while looking into this. Also it is really common for them to ask you to burn at 2x, which I always do for audio anyway. These guys don't seem to care about either of these things.
ISO: your recordings of The Slip, Surprise Me Mr. Davis and The Barr Brothers. pm me please.

Offline Chuck

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2006, 02:07:28 PM »
They got back to me with this:

Quote
Clinton
we typically don't do a glass master for duplication unless over 2000 pcs.
 
what we provide is an exact duplicate of the master.  CDR would work just fine as a master, burned at any speed.  As long as the master meets your needs, the duplicates should too.
 
If ***** has one of the duplicates from the previous job, we could use that as a master as well.

They can use any old CDR but can't use the data disk without a $65 dollar fee.  ::)

I asked if they wanted two masters to compare potential read error. This is something I found from other services while looking into this. Also it is really common for them to ask you to burn at 2x, which I always do for audio anyway. These guys don't seem to care about either of these things.

That's pretty much what I have found as well. We make between 2,000  and 5,000 copies of the conference calls I edit and send on audio CD. I assume they have mass duplicators that just work off the master I send them. We have a small, onesy, twosy replicator at work that we use for small jobs. We call it the Burninator :)
(Bonus points if you know the reference there)

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline heath

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2006, 02:12:59 PM »
They got back to me with this:

Quote
Clinton
we typically don't do a glass master for duplication unless over 2000 pcs.
 
what we provide is an exact duplicate of the master.  CDR would work just fine as a master, burned at any speed.  As long as the master meets your needs, the duplicates should too.
 
If ***** has one of the duplicates from the previous job, we could use that as a master as well.

They can use any old CDR but can't use the data disk without a $65 dollar fee.  ::)

I asked if they wanted two masters to compare potential read error. This is something I found from other services while looking into this. Also it is really common for them to ask you to burn at 2x, which I always do for audio anyway. These guys don't seem to care about either of these things.

That's pretty much what I have found as well. We make between 2,000  and 5,000 copies of the conference calls I edit and send on audio CD. I assume they have mass duplicators that just work off the master I send them. We have a small, onesy, twosy replicator at work that we use for small jobs. We call it the Burninator :)
(Bonus points if you know the reference there)



TROGDOR!!!!

anyhow, i send out DDP, 1630, and on rare occassion cdr.  I would question the company you're using as they don't seem to care much about the work they are doing...
And the Sultans... yeah the Sultans play creole

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Offline Chuck

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2006, 02:32:40 PM »
They got back to me with this:

Quote
Clinton
we typically don't do a glass master for duplication unless over 2000 pcs.
 
what we provide is an exact duplicate of the master.  CDR would work just fine as a master, burned at any speed.  As long as the master meets your needs, the duplicates should too.
 
If ***** has one of the duplicates from the previous job, we could use that as a master as well.

They can use any old CDR but can't use the data disk without a $65 dollar fee.  ::)

I asked if they wanted two masters to compare potential read error. This is something I found from other services while looking into this. Also it is really common for them to ask you to burn at 2x, which I always do for audio anyway. These guys don't seem to care about either of these things.

That's pretty much what I have found as well. We make between 2,000  and 5,000 copies of the conference calls I edit and send on audio CD. I assume they have mass duplicators that just work off the master I send them. We have a small, onesy, twosy replicator at work that we use for small jobs. We call it the Burninator :)
(Bonus points if you know the reference there)



TROGDOR!!!!

anyhow, i send out DDP, 1630, and on rare occassion cdr.  I would question the company you're using as they don't seem to care much about the work they are doing...

TROGDOR!!!!

Heath got it right!
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline heath

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2006, 02:48:58 PM »
And the Sultans... yeah the Sultans play creole

 The Upstream Mend

Offline cleantone

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2006, 03:00:48 PM »
I'll admit I don't know all that much about duplication. I think when doing 2000-5000 they might want to make a glass master for replication. I don't know for sure though of course.

Quote
anyhow, i send out DDP, 1630, and on rare occassion cdr..

Two things I need to learn more about if anyone has any resources, please point them out.

Quote
I would question the company you're using as they don't seem to care much about the work they are doing...

As would I. Fortunatly I have nothing to do with this anymore. I gave the client good masters 5 months ago. This morning I straigtened it out with the dupers and the client. I am not going to be making another master for them. I told the client how to make one from the data masters I have given them. They admitted to not taking care of the masters as I had instructed them to. I now am pretty positive fingerprints and/or scratches were to blame.

The biggest WTF in my opinion is the fact that they rushed the production in every stage but have yet to duplicate the damn album. Rushed the tracking, rushed the mix, rushed the mastering but wait 5 months to press the record. Oh well.

ISO: your recordings of The Slip, Surprise Me Mr. Davis and The Barr Brothers. pm me please.

Offline Chuck

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2006, 03:25:43 PM »
I'll admit I don't know all that much about duplication. I think when doing 2000-5000 they might want to make a glass master for replication. I don't know for sure though of course.

Quote
anyhow, i send out DDP, 1630, and on rare occassion cdr..

Two things I need to learn more about if anyone has any resources, please point them out.

Quote
I would question the company you're using as they don't seem to care much about the work they are doing...

As would I. Fortunatly I have nothing to do with this anymore. I gave the client good masters 5 months ago. This morning I straigtened it out with the dupers and the client. I am not going to be making another master for them. I told the client how to make one from the data masters I have given them. They admitted to not taking care of the masters as I had instructed them to. I now am pretty positive fingerprints and/or scratches were to blame.

The biggest WTF in my opinion is the fact that they rushed the production in every stage but have yet to duplicate the damn album. Rushed the tracking, rushed the mix, rushed the mastering but wait 5 months to press the record. Oh well.



Next time I send them one, I'll ask what their process is.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

RebelRebel

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2006, 03:33:53 PM »
  http://www.the-digital-audio.co.uk/master.htm
Bob Katz  Book, Mastering Audio is an excellent resource


  * CD production master: your material is PQ coded(Code on a CD audio that indicates the length of the material and the location of each track.) and then transferred onto one of four formats; DDPi files on a DVD-R, DDP Exabyte, 1610/1630, or CDR.
          o DDPi is the newest format. Disk Description Protocol files are generated and then burnt, together with Check Sum data, to a DVD-R and verified. Together with DDP Exabyte, this is the most reliable format and all data can be fully verified to ensure no errors creep in.
          o DDP Exabyte is a very secure high speed computer data tape system which has been in use for many years by banks, etc. It too can be fully verified to ensure no errors creep in. It is becoming less come now as it is slower to use.
          o 1610/1630 was the original format used for CD production. Digital audio is recorded via the Sony 1610 or 1630 processor onto a UMatic video tape. The data on the tape can be verified, but the tape is expensive, bulky and delicate. This system has almost been phased out, but we retain the ability to make new masters and transfer existing ones.
          o Compact Disc Recordable (CDR). CDRs are ‘burnt’ with a special laser which heats up a layer under the surface of the disc, leaving a pattern of dots. There are several potential problems with CDR:
                + firstly many systems do not accurately transfer the data,
                + secondly any dust and contamination on the surface of the disc or airborne particles in the writer can prevent the laser from burning the correct pattern onto the disc (this can affect the sound of the CDs and may even mean some discs are unplayable),
                + thirdly most CDR systems cannot check the data which has been transferred, so you may not realise there is a problem until it is too late.

The Digital Audio Company uses either DDPi files on DVD-R or DDP Exabyte for CD production masters because it is very secure (we have never had a master fail!). We have run extensive listening and data tests, comparing original source material with production CDs to check that what the client supplies is what the final CDs sound like. We have never found any evidence of changes in sound when DDP is used.

Quality control is very important during CD pre-mastering. All CD masters are fully auditioned for audible problems either as they are loaded onto the edit system or played out. Our DAT machines have error indicators and the edit system analyses the digital audio for errors. As the master is being written it is automatically checked for data errors which are corrected. Once the master is written it is then verified (double checked) and for Exabytes and 1610 masters a report is printed to guarantee the quality. PQ coding is the process which adds extra information to the CD which tells the CD player where each song starts and stops, and its duration.

A CD can have up to 99 tracks and each track can contain up to 99 index points (although not all CD players can access indices).

It is also possible to embed a Bar Code number and International Standard Recording Codes (ISRC) into the table of contents on an audio CD to identify the owner of each track. ISRC's consist of a series of letters and numbers which are allocated by the PPL in the UK, and regulated worldwide by the IFPI. ISRCs can be used by radio stations, etc., to automatically log play out of your material for royalty payments. Visit their web site or for more contact information see our links page.

CD text is a relatively new addition to the CD specification and we can include information such as track title, composer, arranger and artiste when creating a DDPi master. Please ensure that you supply all CD text information with the correct spelling.

 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2006, 03:35:24 PM by Teddy »

Offline todd e

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Re: format question for CD duplication
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2006, 09:14:52 AM »
i used to work with sonopress out of weaverville, nc (owned by bertlesman inc from germany) and all of my duplication jobs, were +1000 units.  i would create both a data discs with FLACs and regular audio disc from exact audio copy.  included with these two discs were track and timing sheets, as generated from EAC. 

the ONLY time any thing every went wrong, was when i used the stnd jewl case instead of the plastic clam shell case.  jewel cases break and we learned our lesson, but with a backup on hand always, it was easy to fix.

the plant checks the discs immediately and if there was any problem the engineer would call me directly and discuss.  it was a great relationship and they learned from me and i learned from them. 

they even had an upload section, on their site, that you could send the lossless files (way to risky IMO...)

sorry for your troubles.

 

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