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Author Topic: PA too loud to tape?  (Read 10301 times)

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Offline gmm6797

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2007, 04:42:01 AM »
I am glad  got such a technical discussion occurring... but most of this is way over my head (unfortunately).

Recorded Gwen Stefani (for the Mrs) from the 5th row all the way house right by the flown PA and the bass on the floor, and more bass level overloading, though rather minor in comparison to the Godsmack show.

Either I need better recording seats (center and further back) or some different gear :(

Some people have suggested the LemoSax or an Nbox... neither seem to be floating around on the Yard Sale

Offline grider

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2007, 10:07:01 AM »
PA sound can indeed be too loud to tape; a year ago I taped STS9 in a very wide/shallow theatre, and the SPL's just f'd up my recording; even worse was at a Tortoise show about six months ago, with just unbelievably loud sound, I was running 483 hypers into my UA5, and even with the recording level on 1 on a scale of 1 to twelve I was still getting overs on my recording levels, it was just too loud for my gear to even handle

Offline willndmb

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2007, 10:29:31 AM »
Either I need better recording seats (center and further back) or some different gear :(

Some people have suggested the LemoSax or an Nbox... neither seem to be floating around on the Yard Sale
akgs would do the trick  :P

seriously though
i have only seen 1 nbox for sale in the yard and a couple of sax
the sax comes up on ebay from time to time, usually for around $700
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
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Offline Todd R

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2007, 11:04:27 AM »
I'm curious if the issue is running the VMS02 into the R-09 without attenuation between the two.  I started looking some stuff up yesterday and then got busy with work and never got around to posting.

The Schoeps caps take a very high SPL and I doubt those would be the problem.  Plus, lots of folks run them for loud shows and aren't reporting problems.  Perhaps it is the VMS02 that is overloading, I've never used it and  couldn't find a manual online for it.  I did find the specs of the VMS5u.  It can take 5v on the input, which is very high, and more than enough to accept the input from the mk41 caps even at extremely high SPLs (more than the mk41s could take).

But the VMS5u puts out a maximum of +20dbu (+18dbV).  If the VMS02 is similar to the VMS5u, it might be putting out too hot of a signal for the R09.  IIRC, the R09 only can take a maximum of something like +18dbu (right??).  Which makes me wonder if the issue is the VMS02 might be putting out too high a signal for the R09.  Just a stab, something worth considering or testing.
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Offline gmm6797

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2007, 10:08:01 PM »
Well a couple of assumptions from my non-technical ass

* my usual stealth/VMS>R09 is in the shop for repairs, and that has a -10db pad
* the VMS5u is much better design and specs than the (my) VMS02ib
     * the VMS5u is significantly larger and significantly harder to stealth with

Someplace I have the ~10 page manual from the VMS02ib, Ill dig it up and scan it into a PDF

I wish I was more technical, I just know my ears like the Schoeps, so thats what I went with LOL

Offline dgodwin

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2007, 10:15:15 PM »
teddy posted a zip file with most of the manual pages in jpgs.  it can be found here:  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,57349.0.html  down a little ways

my guess is that it's the R-09.  It seems like you haven't had as many problems since switching from the R1 to the R-09... but that's just my unscientific guess.

Offline shaggy

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2007, 10:40:28 PM »
Well a couple of assumptions from my non-technical ass
* my usual stealth/VMS>R09 is in the shop for repairs, and that has a -10db pad
* the VMS5u is much better design and specs than the (my) VMS02ib
* the VMS5u is significantly larger and significantly harder to stealth with

I disagree.  The vms02ib actually sounds fuller and more up front than the vms5u.  I think if the problem you are having is not the R09 then it is due to the 8 X AAs NiMH putting out 9.6 volts rather than 12V.  But that is only a guess.  I know that the external jack states 9-15V being acceptable.  I know the Lemosax doesn't sound the same running at 12V vs 15V (it has an external power range of 12-24V).

Again, the only times I have had issues was with being in front of bass cabinets at techno-trance jam affair (The Bays and Suzano/Numazawa/Kaji - Metamorphose Festy), the breaking up was only during intense bass output and not throughout the entire affair.  Also hear it at a classical setting running at 30dB of gain (and only at the final crescendos of the last movements of Schumann Syph No 2).  At the classical setting I too was running with NiMH but into a modSBM dialed in about 8-9.

Offline gmm6797

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2007, 03:44:53 AM »
I disagree.  The vms02ib actually sounds fuller and more up front than the vms5u.  I think if the problem you are having is not the R09 then it is due to the 8 X AAs NiMH putting out 9.6 volts rather than 12V.  But that is only a guess.  I know that the external jack states 9-15V being acceptable.  I know the Lemosax doesn't sound the same running at 12V vs 15V (it has an external power range of 12-24V).

Again, the only times I have had issues was with being in front of bass cabinets at techno-trance jam affair (The Bays and Suzano/Numazawa/Kaji - Metamorphose Festy), the breaking up was only during intense bass output and not throughout the entire affair.  Also hear it at a classical setting running at 30dB of gain (and only at the final crescendos of the last movements of Schumann Syph No 2).  At the classical setting I too was running with NiMH but into a modSBM dialed in about 8-9.

OK, then how do you get 12v in the field on the VMS02 while stealthing?

Also converted the manual to a PDF: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,57349.msg1134854.html#msg1134854

Offline shaggy

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2007, 06:23:34 PM »
OK, then how do you get 12v in the field on the VMS02 while stealthing?

Run Alkalines in the sled.

NiMH 8 X 1.2V = 9.6V
Alkln 8 X 1.5V = 12V

Offline gmm6797

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2007, 11:25:31 PM »
OK, then how do you get 12v in the field on the VMS02 while stealthing?
Run Alkalines in the sled.
NiMH 8 X 1.2V = 9.6V
Alkln 8 X 1.5V = 12V

Anyone know the average runtime on a set of standard/normal Duracell or Energizer (or similar, not the junky no names) AA batteries?  I know what the manual states, but curious what some guidelines are. 

I have used alkaline in my VMS02ib, but it has been a long time to start saving some cash.... but didnt realized it was at the expense of a recording

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2007, 06:43:37 PM »
I was just trying some new math and it has me worried about max SPLs at an upcoming dino jr show.

For a recent show I ran 7.5' above the stage:

Mk21 nos > kc5 > cmc6 > v3 @ 17db gain > 722 @ 0db gain

That produced peaks on the 722 of about -3.8dBFS, with one drum whack at -1.59dbFS.  The Avg RMS was -25dbFS.  It was a small kick drum and higher frequency than most.  It was moving a fair bit of air (down there) and there were small windscreens on the mics.

From the specs on the Mk21 (max spl = 132dB, 13mV/Pa), I calculate the cap will output +2.5dBu at max SPL.  In other threads we've agreed that at the 0 gain setting the 722 clips at +20dBU.

So the max SPL of the cap occurs at -17.5dBFS.

Since I added 17 dB of gain on the v3, it seems the peak was within about 2 dB of the max SPL?  And the avg RMS was within 24.5dB of the max spl (fwiw, the kick drum on the recording is super tight)?

I regularly run the v3 at 20dB of gain with schoeps/MG and end up with peaks of maybe -8 to -3.  So maybe I'm worried about nothing here? Plus this is a drum level problem, not a guitar problem..  The drums won't likely be any louder for dino jr.. But I don't know about guitar levels up there.

If the audio is going to suffer due to the spl, I'd rather run the MG200's (145dB max spl) but that messes with my plan..

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: PA too loud to tape?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2007, 09:28:21 AM »
Looks like I over loaded my mics the last time I recorded dino jr. I recorded them at the same venue in '05 with mid-floor mounted mk21 > 722.. I considered the recording so-so (somewhat congested sounding, maybe overloaded) and attributed it to my choice of mk21's rather than mk41's (didn't have mk4's then).

Looking back at the numbers for that recording, I ran 14dB of gain on the 722 and ended up with peak levels of -1.72 & -2.47. RMS avg was -17.3 & -18.35.

Subtracting the 14dB of gain from my peak = -15.72dB = +4.28dBu = peaks were 1.78dB over the max SPL of the mics (maybe more). 
Rms avg of -17.3 - 14dB of gain = -31.3 dB = -11.3dBu = rms avg within 13.8dB of max SPL.

This throws my whole mic/pre plan into a tizzy..  I could attempt to increase the guitar amp attentuation by going more off-angle above stage.  More directional mk4's would attenuate more of the off-axis energy and reduce avg rms but I wanted to run subcards up there.  The other alternative is switching to 4061 and MG200 but the unbal 4061 creates other long cable related problems..


 

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