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Author Topic: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?  (Read 3547 times)

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Offline Dutchman1101

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Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« on: December 21, 2007, 09:38:12 AM »
Yet another Schoeps question :P

I just purchased a pair to tide me over until my normal cmc6's are repaired (8 to 10 week turnaround time). I figured Schoeps are a good investment and I can always sell them or the cmc6's later on.

What are thoughts on the cmc6xt bodies?

I have listened to a good amount of recordings on the archive made with them and kind of like them. I think the extra frequency response could really benefit someone like me who doesn’t always like the Schoeps "mud" sound.

Thanks in advance!

Harrison

Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2007, 07:03:06 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "the Schoeps 'mud' sound" and it matters, since you could mean dullness of sound and/or it could mean an excess of reverberant sound pickup in your recordings, or you could mean something else that I have no idea about. When you aim a good microphone at mud, it should pick up mud, and I'm not there when you record so I just plain don't know what you aim your microphones at.

However, I can tell you that even if you have perfect hearing (which I'll bet you don't), the difference in audible high frequency response between the normal CMC 6 and the xt version is quite small. It's not exactly zero, but it would take very careful listening comparisons, excellent playback equipment, and somewhat unusual program material to make this difference evident directly.

The thing is, there really is very little sound energy above 20 kHz in most music, the way most people hear it. All the famous examples of how violins or percussion instruments have energy up to 40 kHz are taken from mere centimeters away from the sound source, and are chosen because they're unusual. By the time sound reaches the audience (and particularly if you're talking about amplified music, which I suspect you are at least in part), there's rarely but a faint residue of anything above 16 kHz, let alone 20 or 30 kHz. With amplified music forget it; the speakers in PA systems don't go nearly that high.

Schoeps doesn't make the xt version because they have some belief to sell about recording "up there." They make the xt because they are more willing than any other first-tier manufacturer to make special versions of their products even in relatively small quantities on request, and because--knowing that--some customers (in Japan, I think) asked them to produce microphones with response that high. So, having made up the first batch, they decided to make this amplifier type available to anyone else who might be interested. That way they can maybe recoup their investment in its design.

What I might suggest that you do is try to use a good equalizer (perhaps in software) to see whether a treble boost helps you get over whatever it is that you don't like about the sound of your recordings. It might or it might not, but that way you'd know if it's a matter of frequency response or something else.

--best regards

P.S.: (added later) If you do decide to play around with an equalizer, the frequency region that affects the sense of clarity the most is two to three octaves lower than the region in which the xt amplifier offers extra sensitivity.

My guess is that you may be recording from too far back--because your ears are telling you when the distance is right for the most pleasant listening, but that's not necessarily (or even usually) the optimal distance for placing a pair of microphones. The main problem is that many--perhaps most--musical performances occur in spaces that aren't very well suited for recording; the character of the reflected sound is just wrong. So if you place your microphones so as to get the amount of reflected sound you would like, you end up recording mud, or clatter, or something else that doesn't enhance the musical experience. Sometimes the poor or questionable quality of the reverberant sound in a space forces you to make a drier recording than you would like--just so that the recording doesn't have too much of a kind of reflected sound that makes things sound worse. Does that make sense? There are other issues to consider, but I think this may be the main one.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 03:31:29 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline KLowe

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2007, 12:56:25 PM »
Once again.  +T to you.

Your knowledge is a true asset to the community.
I actually work for a living with music, instead of you jerk offs who wish they did.

bwaaaahahahahahaha.... that is awesome!

Offline Dutchman1101

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2007, 07:43:34 PM »
David, yes thank you for sharing your vast knowledge with us! +T

So basically there really should not be any difference between the cmc6 and the cmc6xt for what we do because we can’t reproduce or hear the extra frequencies the xt was meant to capture?

So is the xt and the normal cmc6 the same between 0 and 20kHz?

Harrison

« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 10:55:49 PM by Dutchman1101 »

Offline H₂O

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2007, 09:58:00 PM »
I run xt's and have run them off and on (switch between the M222's and the xt's) for over 3 years.

I like the way they sound if run with the right gear.

The main difference in audible sound is that the xt's have a slight HF emphisis between 10Khz and 20Khz which is great for on-axis caps such as mk4's mk21's and 41's but not on off-axis caps such as 4v's, 41v's, 6's and 8's.   Although they sound good with v's they sound better with 4's or 41's.  With the v's they can sound a little crashy on symbols, etc as there is a little much HF emphisis (sounds similar to the KM140's IMO).  I made a few amazing tapes with mk4v > CMC6xt but I definitely prefer mk4 > CMC6xt  (and honestly mk4 > m222 over mk4v > m222)

Also I have found that I definitely do not like the sound of the xt's straight into the 702.   I don't know if the regular CMC6's sound better but the xt's lack bass and sound shrilly to me.  Definitely prefer running my PSP2 in front.
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Offline Dutchman1101

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2007, 11:00:38 PM »
I run xt's and have run them off and on (switch between the M222's and the xt's) for over 3 years.

I like the way they sound if run with the right gear.

The main difference in audible sound is that the xt's have a slight HF emphisis between 10Khz and 20Khz which is great for on-axis caps such as mk4's mk21's and 41's but not on off-axis caps such as 4v's, 41v's, 6's and 8's.   Although they sound good with v's they sound better with 4's or 41's.  With the v's they can sound a little crashy on symbols, etc as there is a little much HF emphisis (sounds similar to the KM140's IMO).  I made a few amazing tapes with mk4v > CMC6xt but I definitely prefer mk4 > CMC6xt  (and honestly mk4 > m222 over mk4v > m222)

Also I have found that I definitely do not like the sound of the xt's straight into the 702.   I don't know if the regular CMC6's sound better but the xt's lack bass and sound shrilly to me.  Definitely prefer running my PSP2 in front.


That's kind of what I was thinking. I have been listening to a bunch of cmc6xt>m148 tapes on the archive and really liked them. Even with the mk4's witch can sound very "muddy" paired with the m148.

I'm thinking I'm going to do some comparos. I am now going to keep the 148 so the xt's might be the way to go!

Harrison

Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2007, 12:54:57 AM »
> So is the xt and the normal cmc6 the same between 0 and 20kHz?

Not quite. The xt has a very slight response lift below 20 kHz. It is unfortunately just enough to invalidate a listening comparison. What I mean is, for those who believe that we should preserve audio above 20 kHz, a comparison between the CMC 6 and the CMC 6xt can't prove this assertion since the two amplifiers don't quite have identical response below 20 kHz.

However, people shouldn't get the idea that this slight boost will make any difference in the tone color or the clarity of their recordings; it's too slight (a few tenths of a dB) and way too high in frequency for that; the "clarity and brightness" region is about two octaves lower. There isn't even a word for what 16 - 20 kHz adds to sound; apparently most professional audio engineers can't hear if you filter that range out completely, as long as you do it cleanly.

The Schoeps "V" (side-addressed or "vertical") capsules are all rolling off by the point that the xt amplifier's response begins to climb, so the xt amplifier makes no difference with those capsules one way or the other. If anyone thinks he hears a difference with those capsules, I'm sorry but that really only shows how much a person's listening experiences can be (and usually are) influenced by their expectations and beliefs.

Assuming that any significant energy above 20 kHz is picked up by a microphone, some recording equipment will alias it, depending on your sampling rate and the quality of the filters in your equipment. And there certainly are very few loudspeakers in the world that can accurately reproduce it--a fact which many people seem not to realize. Some crossovers filter out any signals above the tweeter's response range to prevent burnout, but some do not, and misbehave audibly when driven with signals above the audio range.

That may well be why none of the Japanese experiments which have allegedly "proved" the audible importance of 30 or 40 kHz response have ever been reproduced in the West: In none of those experiments was any evident care taken to see whether the signals above 20 kHz were producing distortion products below 20 kHz. Or if this was done, the writeups of the experiments have never mentioned it--which is odd to say the least.

I believe that most people who are not engaged in research or acoustical measurement that specifically requires response above the audible range--who simply want to record music for the sake of listening to it--should probably avoid microphones claiming to have response above the audible range. If people really hear any substantial difference between such microphones and those which are sensibly band-limited, then the chances are they are hearing some kind of equipment misbehavior. This is particularly true for males who live in urban areas and/or who listen to rock and roll or metal; pretty much all of us have quite measurable high-frequency hearing losses already by 12 to 14 years of age these days. There are a very few people who can hear (just a little) beyond 20 kHz--but I'd be quite surprised if anyone on this forum is among them.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 03:20:16 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Tim

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2007, 07:15:57 PM »
spend the money on playback

Just an alternative suggestion. It's easy to get caught up "chasing the sound" (I certainly have) but it might make the whole process more rewarding to invest a little in playback. That way you can get a better of idea of exactly what it is you are looking for, what your rig is missing etc.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 07:19:59 PM by Sun Bear »
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Offline ehren

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2008, 02:23:42 PM »
spend the money on playback

Just an alternative suggestion. It's easy to get caught up "chasing the sound" (I certainly have) but it might make the whole process more rewarding to invest a little in playback. That way you can get a better of idea of exactly what it is you are looking for, what your rig is missing etc.

QFT ;D

Offline lnarachi

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2008, 07:34:55 PM »
Spend the money on playback is very good advice.
When you run Schoeps, Neumanns, etc and you run it through a consumer "receiver" you can't hear how great the mics really are!

I bit some bullet and got a rig 2nd and 3rd hand via other stereo rig freaks on audiogon. Its makes you listen to your music collection all over again.

It never stops there - whoooboy

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Playback: Northstar Designs M192 transport and DAC >  Cardas Neutral Reference interconnects > Cary Audio SLP98 > Pass Labs X250 > Acoustic Zen Satori cables > Von Schweikert VR4

Offline ghellquist

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Re: Schoeps cmc6xt thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2008, 05:23:08 AM »
And do include a bit of acoustic treatment in the playback budget. No man-made equipment can make a true reproduction in a tiled bathroom (fun thing to try by the way). And many listening rooms I have seen, also at the home of audiophiles, are pretty close to that -- hard surfaces everywhere and no dampening of room modes. Doing a decent treatment takes a bit of knowledge but does not need to be especially expensive. And the difference can be quite dramatic.

Gunnar

 

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