Topic: Marantz PMD 620 X Edirol R-09 specs. Need help

[Dede2002]

Hello,

In my immense and profound lack of proper knowledge, I'm trying to put on paper an idiot-proof specs comparision.
Well, I'm failing miserably.
Seems that each unity specs are developed using different languages/references ( to my eyes, of course).
Check this out.

PMD 620                                     Edirol R-09

S/Noise Ratio                                  N/A
Mic....65 db
Line...80db

THD

Mic....0.1%                                     N/A
Line...0.015%

Dynamic Range: 90db                        N/A


Sensitivity
Mic: 12m Vrms/30 kohms                  N/A
Line: 500 mVrms/20 kohms


Line Input Level

N/A                                               Up to + 16db


Thanks in advance

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I can understand wanting to compare on specs but when the microtrack was first announced they claimed specs that were as good as the 722 and V3.  Many of us were shocked and just hoped it was true.. that we were just seeing tech move forward. Hah!  That was total BS, just like their 48volt phantom claims. I'd like to believe companies are beyond releasing bogus specs these days but recent experience suggests otherwise.

I'd focus more on how you intend to use the device - internal mics vs external, pre vs no-pre and type of material you will record.  I haven't used the PMD but really like the r09, especially as an a/d with a good pre (even when compared against the 722 or v3 a/d).

[Dede2002]

I can understand wanting to compare on specs but when the microtrack was first announced they claimed specs that were as good as the 722 and V3.  Many of us were shocked and just hoped it was true.. that we were just seeing tech move forward. Hah!  That was total BS, just like their 48volt phantom claims. I'd like to believe companies are beyond releasing bogus specs these days but recent experience suggests otherwise.

I'd focus more on how you intend to use the device - internal mics vs external, pre vs no-pre and type of material you will record.  I haven't used the PMD but really like the r09, especially as an a/d with a good pre (even when compared against the 722 or v3 a/d).

Freelunch,

Thanks for you fast reply. Well, so far I use both units (PMD 620 and R-09) only with external mics, the HLSC-1. I'm planning to incorporate a pre in the near future. Why? In my experience, the PMD is way less sensitive than the R-09 ( Line), you have to go up to -9 or -8 rec level to peak in the -12db to -6db region. I think a good pre will work great. I mostly tape loud to very loud type amplified music.
T ;)hanks again

[flintstone]

I love comparing specs (called "bench racing" in the automotive world).  You can narrow the choices by reviewing specs.  But the better way to make a purchase decision is to test the machines in your world, doing your kind of recording, with the mics you plan to use. 

Guitar Center is one vendor that sells both recorders, and has stores in many cities.  If there's no Guitar Center nearby, consider purchasing both from a reputable online vendor with a generous return policy.  Tell them you intend to compare the recorders, and return the unit that comes in second.  You'll have to pay the shipping costs (maybe $30 round trip for such small and light machines), but you'll make the right decision.

Another approach is to talk with people who have used both.  Spyder9 is one person here who owned both, if I remember correctly.  Stephanie Wingfield at http://www.wingfieldaudio.com has tested both, and she advertises that she's willing to provide a quick telephone consultation.  She also has a page that lists vital stats for the recorders she sells.

Flintstone

[Dede2002]

I love comparing specs (called "bench racing" in the automotive world).  You can narrow the choices by reviewing specs.  But the better way to make a purchase decision is to test the machines in your world, doing your kind of recording, with the mics you plan to use. 

Guitar Center is one vendor that sells both recorders, and has stores in many cities.  If there's no Guitar Center nearby, consider purchasing both from a reputable online vendor with a generous return policy.  Tell them you intend to compare the recorders, and return the unit that comes in second.  You'll have to pay the shipping costs (maybe $30 round trip for such small and light machines), but you'll make the right decision.

Another approach is to talk with people who have used both.  Spyder9 is one person here who owned both, if I remember correctly.  Stephanie Wingfield at http://www.wingfieldaudio.com has tested both, and she advertises that she's willing to provide a quick telephone consultation.  She also has a page that lists vital stats for the recorders she sells.

Flintstone

Thanks for the tips, but I already own both units. I'ts not been easy to make a fair comparision. Like I said before, I used to tape using only the Line input on my R-09. The problem is that even in the same venues/bands/mics, the PMD-620's Line In in less sensitive than the R-09's. I've to push the Rec Lev real hard to have decent levels (but not the same levels I use to have with the R-09) I've using Mic In most of the time. That's my problem.

Thanks for your help!

[seabrook]

One aspect that convinced me of the PMD-620 over the R-09 was durability.  The PMD-620's mini-jacks are more solidly attached to its printed circuit board (PCB) than R-09's and thus less likely to fail.  See the photos and comments from guysonic:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97700.msg1302098.html#msg1302098

BTW, here's a YouTube video of the PMD-620 narrated in French.  Good closeups of the machine operating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYgxrcvd6rQ

[aaronji]

The PMD620 line in is listed as 500mVrms/20kohms.  The R09 is listed as 0dBU/17kohms, which (if I did the math correctly ) is equivalent to 775mVrms/17kohms.  I think.

[Dede2002]

The PMD620 line in is listed as 500mVrms/20kohms.  The R09 is listed as 0dBU/17kohms, which (if I did the math correctly ) is equivalent to 775mVrms/17kohms.  I think.

Thanks Aaronji,

By that I can assume the PMD-620's Line input is less sensitive. Right? Wrong? 

[Nick's Picks]

and is that a good thing or a bad thing?

less sensitive means more gain from the unit.  If its just using cheap-o opamps in there..there *could* be more significant noise.

super sensitive means less gain, and less noise.

[Dede2002]

and is that a good thing or a bad thing?

less sensitive means more gain from the unit.  If its just using cheap-o opamps in there..there *could* be more significant noise.

super sensitive means less gain, and less noise.

Thant's exactly what I'm trying to figured out. See, I own both units: R-09 and PMD 620. By this time, it's pretty obvious to me that the PMD 620 demands much more gain to achieve decent levels running Line In. Most of the time I have to go Mic In with the PMD 620. A preamp is out of question ( I'm a 100% stealth taper). With the PMD 620, you need a REALLY loud sound source to make those levels moving. And you have to set your Rec Lev up to -8db (out of 30db). I think this means, like you said, more noise. But I don't know much...

[ninjadave]

not sure why you think a preamp is out of the question.....the CA-UGLY might be smaller than your current BB depending on which SP one you have....go to retail section to check it out. yes, its more money, but 20db of clean gain solves all your problems here i think...i am looking at one of these for this exact reason but i'm running 3 wire as well, and looking to migrate to the 620 at some point if funds allow.....

ninjadave.

[aaronji]

The PMD620 line in is listed as 500mVrms/20kohms.  The R09 is listed as 0dBU/17kohms, which (if I did the math correctly ) is equivalent to 775mVrms/17kohms.  I think.

Thanks Aaronji,

By that I can assume the PMD-620's Line input is less sensitive. Right? Wrong? 

Yes, less sensitive.  Sorry; didn't realize how vague my last post was until I read it again today!

and is that a good thing or a bad thing?

less sensitive means more gain from the unit.  If its just using cheap-o opamps in there..there *could* be more significant noise.

super sensitive means less gain, and less noise.

Thant's exactly what I'm trying to figured out. See, I own both units: R-09 and PMD 620. By this time, it's pretty obvious to me that the PMD 620 demands much more gain to achieve decent levels running Line In. Most of the time I have to go Mic In with the PMD 620. A preamp is out of question ( I'm a 100% stealth taper). With the PMD 620, you need a REALLY loud sound source to make those levels moving. And you have to set your Rec Lev up to -8db (out of 30db). I think this means, like you said, more noise. But I don't know much...

The line-in unity setting on the 620 was estimated to be around -9 dB.  So setting it to -8 is actually not adding very much gain at all.  When using the R09 in the same setting (comparable SPL), you might actually be attenuating the signal a bit (i.e. decreasing the gain from the unity setting, whatever that may be ).  Don't get too hung up on the actual numbers themselves (think Nigel Tufnel: "The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...")   They don't mean that much until you put them in the context of the other numbers.

As Nick mentioned, this could be bad, noise-wise, if you were really adding a lot of gain from the recorder.  Then again, it could be good if you have really hot mics or tape really loud music.  For what it's worth, I have been using the PMD620 to record a lot of jazz, line-in with a Church Audio ST-9100 pre-amp, recorder set at -9 dB, and haven't had to add tons of gain on the pre-amp (not very loud music and maybe five dB).

But, like ninjadave suggested, maybe you should consider a pre?  There are a couple of really small ones and in my opinion they will make your recordings sound better with either the R09 or the Marantz.

P.S.  I am not much of an electronics guru, although I have been reading a lot in the attempt to get a good handle on the physics aspect of the whole game.  So if I mucked any of that up, hopefully someone will weigh in?

[Dede2002]

The PMD620 line in is listed as 500mVrms/20kohms.  The R09 is listed as 0dBU/17kohms, which (if I did the math correctly ) is equivalent to 775mVrms/17kohms.  I think.

Thanks Aaronji,

By that I can assume the PMD-620's Line input is less sensitive. Right? Wrong? 

Yes, less sensitive.  Sorry; didn't realize how vague my last post was until I read it again today!

and is that a good thing or a bad thing?

less sensitive means more gain from the unit.  If its just using cheap-o opamps in there..there *could* be more significant noise.

super sensitive means less gain, and less noise.

Thant's exactly what I'm trying to figured out. See, I own both units: R-09 and PMD 620. By this time, it's pretty obvious to me that the PMD 620 demands much more gain to achieve decent levels running Line In. Most of the time I have to go Mic In with the PMD 620. A preamp is out of question ( I'm a 100% stealth taper). With the PMD 620, you need a REALLY loud sound source to make those levels moving. And you have to set your Rec Lev up to -8db (out of 30db). I think this means, like you said, more noise. But I don't know much...

The line-in unity setting on the 620 was estimated to be around -9 dB.  So setting it to -8 is actually not adding very much gain at all.  When using the R09 in the same setting (comparable SPL), you might actually be attenuating the signal a bit (i.e. decreasing the gain from the unity setting, whatever that may be ).  Don't get too hung up on the actual numbers themselves (think Nigel Tufnel: "The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...")   They don't mean that much until you put them in the context of the other numbers.

As Nick mentioned, this could be bad, noise-wise, if you were really adding a lot of gain from the recorder.  Then again, it could be good if you have really hot mics or tape really loud music.  For what it's worth, I have been using the PMD620 to record a lot of jazz, line-in with a Church Audio ST-9100 pre-amp, recorder set at -9 dB, and haven't had to add tons of gain on the pre-amp (not very loud music and maybe five dB).

But, like ninjadave suggested, maybe you should consider a pre?  There are a couple of really small ones and in my opinion they will make your recordings sound better with either the R09 or the Marantz.

P.S.  I am not much of an electronics guru, although I have been reading a lot in the attempt to get a good handle on the physics aspect of the whole game.  So if I mucked any of that up, hopefully someone will weigh in?

Thanks aaronji.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong. The rec levels on the PMD goes from -30db to 0db. On the R-09, it goes from 30 to 0.
I can assume that the Marantz estimated unity gain ( -9db) would be like 20 on the R-09's language, right? On the other hand, the R-09 estimated ( 8db or 9db) unity gain would be something like -20db in PMD's idiom. Is this bad, good or is just the way both machines operates? Or maybe am I going nuts? 
Thanks for your help