Topic: Jecklin disk versus Decca tree for string quartet

[Petrus]

I have been asked to record some string quartet music (Haydn's 7 last words) taking place in a medium sized church. I have done a similar (but live) gig with a self made Jecklin disk and MK-012 omni Oktavas which turned out quite OK (that's the reason for this new assignment actually).

So does any of you have any insight or experience about Decca Tree versus Jecklin disk, should I get one more Oktava and try DT, or just rely on the tried and trusted Jecklin?

The recorder is a SD 722, monitoring with ADAM A7.

[bdasilva]

Wouldn't it depend on access to a degree?  A Jecklin disk is typically places in front of the performers... A decca tree, overhead.  People that use just a three mic tree say the soundstage is lacking. Often two mics at the edge of the artists are used to recreate the soundstage. With a Jecklin disk I believe the stereo iimaging and soundstage are easier to control.

[WiFiJeff]

A church might be too reverberant for Blumlein stereo, I've done both Blumlein and Jecklin for string quartet and both are great.  I tend to like omnis a lot, I haven't done Decca tree but would love to hear your impressions if you try it.

Jeff

[jnorman34]

i do small chamber groups with a 4 mic setup - an ORTF pair in center, with a pair of omni flanks about 3 feet spaced.  gives great flexibility during post.  if the space is reverberant, keep the mics as close in as you can.

[ghellquist]

It all depends. I tend to use a Decca tree in some places, preferr normal AB in others, and for other places ORTF is even better. Sometimes MS instead. Extremely rare to have luck with Blumlein in churches (crossed figure .

A few personal opinions.

Setting up a Decca tree can be quite difficult. You need the right hardware. After a lot of experimenting I have two versions available:
- one version uses three mic stands. I use a K&M stand that has a large lump at the bottom and goes up to 3 meters. This really is too low, so I point the mics upwards to tame a bit of high frequency harshness. 
- another version uses a large stand with a home built T. Made out of aluminium U-tubes, mounted together with nuts and bolts. The tree has to go up high enough in order not to catch single instruments too much. Violins miced too close and especially from above can sound really bad.
- you also need to mix down three inputs to two, so you would need a mixer as well.

I never use a Decca tree on its own. It might be possible but I always add outriggers. But then I tend to record larger groups than in the question.

AB, that is two omni microphones can be setup in many ways. There seems to be two major schools, the European going rather close (say around 30 cm (one foot), take or add a bit), and the American school going wider, say above a meter (about 3 feet). Careful positioning is always the key to getting the right sound here. The sound can be heavenly, or totally awash in ambience, all depending on room an placement.

OSS or Jecklin disc is one very good solution. I sometimes bring my home made disc along, but seldom uses it. Maybe I should try more often.

My conclusions. Given that you are going directly down to 2 channels and you already have experience, stay with the disc. Jecklin developed it to cater for specific shortcomings with running omni mics and it can give very nice recordings.

Gunnar

[Gutbucket]

Agreed.  Nothing really to add but I'll post to follow the thread.

Safest to go with what you know, what's worked before and the sound of what is possibly the reason they asked you to record.  Experiment with some other situation where a recording isn't expected, especially with a new and complicated setup unless you can run both rigs at the same time with confidence.

Jecklin would be one of my first choices, especially with a small sting quartet in a good sounding room.  A-B could work nicely too, and would also be simple to try.

Great opportunity. 
Where's Moke on this one?

[boojum]

I have  quick and easy almost-idiot-proof solution.  It would be idiot proof, but I am getting smarter all the time.   

I run a European AB with either an XY card or and MS centered between the AB's.  I get the bass and space from the AB and the localization from the XY-MS.  I blend in just a touch of the AB "as needed."  It is compact (one stand) easy and quick to set up and usually works quite well.  With the MS I can screw around a lot with the ratios between mid and side with the Voxengo free plugin.

Just an idea.

Cheers

[Petrus]

The limiting factors for me are a 2 track recorder (but a good one) and 3 channel mixer (SD302, good also). So max 3 mics. That's why I was thinking about a Decca tree.

I think I start with the Jecklin disk with Oktava omnis, if it does not work I can try various XY and spaced cardioid approaches either with cardioid Oktavas or Rode NT1-A:s. Or maybe I rig two systems and record the backup to laptop via Mbox. What I am mostly looking after is low noise and good spatial image, not forgetting smooth sound. In prevous tests omni Oktavas sounded silkier than a pair of NT1-A:s. I also have a matched pair of 4060, but the self noise levels are 10 dB higher than with Oktava.

So, I start with a working solution and do some testing on the side. Thanks all.

[Gutbucket]

Have you been in the church before? Heard music there?  How good does it sound?
That would strongly influence my choice, a great sounding room is a shame to waste, but a weird echo could cause a problem that might call for the cards.  I just find omnis so natural sounding that I try to use them first if I can.

If you get whatever primary setup you decide on ready to go and have the time, you might put up another and run it into the laptop.  Not with the intention of using it, but just to compare to the primary pair and draw your own conclusions for the next time.  Doing that has been invaluable learning tool for me and believe me I've got plenty more learning to do.

[boojum]

The limiting factors for me are a 2 track recorder (but a good one) and 3 channel mixer (SD302, good also). So max 3 mics. That's why I was thinking about a Decca tree.

I think I start with the Jecklin disk with Oktava omnis, if it does not work I can try various XY and spaced cardioid approaches either with cardioid Oktavas or Rode NT1-A:s. Or maybe I rig two systems and record the backup to laptop via Mbox. What I am mostly looking after is low noise and good spatial image, not forgetting smooth sound. In prevous tests omni Oktavas sounded silkier than a pair of NT1-A:s. I also have a matched pair of 4060, but the self noise levels are 10 dB higher than with Oktava.

So, I start with a working solution and do some testing on the side. Thanks all.

Sorry, I skipped over the 722 parameter.  I have never used a serious Jecklin setup.  The clunky mics I used with a Jecklin worked fine.  I must do some more Jeckilin work again.  But it does not usually work in public as it is so attention getting where I seek to be unobtrusive.  So, I would opt for MS as it allows some fiddling with the sound field afterwards in post.  But, you can convert any two mic recording to MS format, fiddle with the soundfield and then code it back to two channel.  Just another idea.

Let us know how it works.

Cheers

[Petrus]

In this case it does not matter what the setup looks like, it will be a proper recording session. It is true that Jecklin disk is not a stealth rig...

Playing with the idea of constructing a light Decca Tree from thin carbon fibre tubing & DPA 4060, we'll see.

[Gutbucket]

I use a black telescopic set-top TV 'rabbit-ear type antenna as an A-B bar for 4060's which works really well and is easily adjustable for spread.  A few times I've run that on a second stand a few feet behind my main stand supporting a Blumlein pair which allowed me to compare the straight Blumlien to the A-B omnis and potentially toy with combinations of adding omni outriggers as a sort of bastard Blumlein/Decca tree.  If you're so inclined you could try something similar with your 4060's spread behind the J-disc (the J-disc pair substituting for the center Decca omni in this case).

Here's a link to my 4060 TV antenna rig.  I mostly use it without the ball basket windscreens and green baffle balls I was playing with for an outdoor festival that you see in the pics and just attach the mics to the tips of the antennas. 

[edit- I have two pair of 4060s now and have thought about adding a third telescoping antenna out the front if the rig to do my own Decca tree experiments]

What ever you decide on, let us know how it works out.