Topic: Newbi Needs More Help, Please….

[cavernut]

Hi everyone, thank you for all the great information everyone has given me.
I am now in a totalQuandery (Frank Zappa) over what microphone / Preamp Combo to go with.
Most people have told me to do a lot of serious listening to the different combinations on the archives.
I am still trying to figure out how exactly to do that.

Here is some of the gear I am trying to decide on.
The AKG C 480 B and the CK 61, 62, 63 Capsules.
It has been recommended to get the CK 61 capsules for clubs.
The CK 63 capsules for outdoor shows and larger venues.
And the CK 62 Capsules for the studio.
Is this the general concensus?
I have heard these mics are extreemly bright, too bright in fact and lack bottom end.
I know all three capsules have their own charicteristics, however I am not sure if I want to spend the money to buy all three.

The Byerdynamic MC-930’s have also been recommended for an All Pourpose Application.
Thus eliminating the multiple capsules and considerable expense.

I have also heard the new JZ BT-201 mics due out next month, that come with all three capsules is going to be a great way to go.

As for Pre amps this is also quite a delema as well.
Basically here I have two quandrys to contend, before even deciding on a manufacturer or a model.
Do I want to go analog from the pre into the Microtrack II (I already have a Microtrak II) or do I want to go S/PDIF into the MT II?

I know that going  S/PDIF will eliminate the need to set levels on the MT II, thus making it a bit bucket.
I was wondering if going in via the ¼” balanced inputs would give me a warmer sound as well?
Or should I get something like the V# that will give me both options.
I am currently looking at Apogee (who no longer manufactures the models I want, IE.. the ME and the MP)

I am also looking at the Grace Design Lunatec V3 with the 12v option and the Optical output instead of the word clock output. This offers a choice of analog out and digital out as well. However some people think the sound of V3 is a bit harsh as opposed to the Apogee which is a bit warmer sounding.

I have also looked at the Sound Devices MIX PRE which is strictly analog.
I havent seen anyone talk about this device at all. Maybe no one likes this one.

I know all of you have your favorites and I also know that this is also great list of equipment.
If anyone or everyone could give me some guidence here, please feel fee to do so.
Thank You,
Michael Foy

[jeromejello]

a couple of things...

1) if you toying with the idea of using the microtrak II, i would suggest going into it via s/pdif and not analog.
2) if you are using the microtrak II, you do not need the opti-mod on a v3 since the opti-mod just exchanges the word clock for a toslink output (optical)
3) ck 63 caps would probably be better for boomy clubs (since the hypers can reject some of the chatter) and ck 61 for outdoors - but that is just my opinion.

[stevetoney]

Lots of questions. 

To start, you definitely need to get to Live Music Archive and listen.  Not sure what you need to figure out about it.  There's a flash player that you can listen to shows from.  If that won't work for you, just click a link to a song and download it onto your harddrive.  If you download the MP3, you don't even need to use FLAC to convert it.  BUt you owe it to yourself to listen.

480's I don't think are EXTREMELY bright.  I think they're only slightly bright with fantastic transparency...awesome detailed bottom response.  Truly EXCELLENT microphones.  Personal opinion is that you got it backwards...ck63s in the club and ck61 outdoors.  That's not a rule though.  The better rule of thumb is ck63 to reduce reverb and off axis noise when there's lots of that going on...and ck61 all other times.  These are fantastic mics that you will not be sorry you bought.  ck62s not used as often as the 61s and 63s.  If you have the money, the 480s are a better option that the Beyers for the simple fact that you have capsule options.

Yes, the V3 is very bright sounding.  The Apogee gives a really nice warm sound.  Both are great preamps with vastly different sounds.  There are plenty of examples of both in combination with the 480s (and probably the 930s) on the archive, so as soon as you figure that out and listen for yourself, you won't be in a quadary anymore because you can answer at least that part of the question for yourself.

[dean]

Lots of questions. 

To start, you definitely need to get to Live Music Archive and listen.  Not sure what you need to figure out about it.  There's a flash player that you can listen to shows from.  If that won't work for you, just click a link to a song and download it onto your harddrive.  If you download the MP3, you don't even need to use FLAC to convert it.  BUt you owe it to yourself to listen.

480's I don't think are EXTREMELY bright.  I think they're only slightly bright with fantastic transparency...awesome detailed bottom response.  Truly EXCELLENT microphones.  Personal opinion is that you got it backwards...ck63s in the club and ck61 outdoors.  That's not a rule though.  The better rule of thumb is ck63 to reduce reverb and off axis noise when there's lots of that going on...and ck61 all other times.  These are fantastic mics that you will not be sorry you bought.  ck62s not used as often as the 61s and 63s.  If you have the money, the 480s are a better option that the Beyers for the simple fact that you have capsule options.

Yes, the V3 is very bright sounding.  The Apogee gives a really nice warm sound.  Both are great preamps with vastly different sounds.  There are plenty of examples of both in combination with the 480s (and probably the 930s) on the archive, so as soon as you figure that out and listen for yourself, you won't be in a quadary anymore because you can answer at least that part of the question for yourself.

Seconding this, particularly about the part of listening to different combos on the archive. 
http://www.archive.org/details/etree

[cavernut]

You are all correct about the CK61 - 63 i did mean to write that in reverse, sorry bout that....

[TNJazz]

Honestly, I'm still blown away by the fact that some of you guys feel the need to use hypers in a club...

Cards, subs and omnis are pretty much all I ever need to use to make my ears happy.  The few times I've run hypers in a smaller live venue I've been less than thrilled with the results.

To each his own though.

As for the suggestion of listening on the archive - it's a good one to start with but it won't get you all the way there unless you're familiar with the rooms those shows were recorded in.  Basically, finding the right combo of mics/pres is going to take some trial and error.  The more research you do on the front end, the less likely you are to switch things up every other month while you're "searching for the sound" and you are certainly less likely to make a BAD choice.

Good luck, and by all means come back and let us know what you decide on!

[stevetoney]

Honestly, I'm still blown away by the fact that some of you guys feel the need to use hypers in a club...

TNJazz...it's not that I _WANT_ to use the hypers...it's that the venue dictates because they usually make us set up in a crappy location.

In Pittsburgh, we have a venue called Mr. Smalls.  It's a small to mid size shed that used to be a church.  Probably can fit 1000 or so, but it's completely packed when there are that many.  About half way back, there's a drink rail the bisects the front of the venue from the back.  Alot of shows are under 21, so that's how they keep the kids out of the drinking area.  They make us set up our mic stands just in front of that drink rail.

It turns out that the venue has a pretty nice sounding PA and when you are DFC, it really sounds great.  As you back up from DFC though, the sound starts to break up BAD...like I said it was a church and the walls are block and reflect the sound like a trampoline. 

Lo and behold, it sounds like CRAP where we have to set up, but no more than about 3 or 4 pacesforward, it sounds really nice. 

In this situation, hypers make a night and day difference in the quality of the recording.  The side wall sound rejection is just enough to make a difference between a good recording and a far boomier, quite reverb-y recording.

I might add that I have no doubt in my mind this is the reason that Bean likes hyper capsules so much.  This is the venue where all the best national acts (for my taste anyway) come to perform in Pittsburgh.

[notlance]

Hi everyone, thank you for all the great information everyone has given me.
I am now in a totalQuandery (Frank Zappa) over what microphone / Preamp Combo to go with.
Most people have told me to do a lot of serious listening to the different combinations on the archives.
I am still trying to figure out how exactly to do that.

Here is some of the gear I am trying to decide on.
The AKG C 480 B and the CK 61, 62, 63 Capsules.
It has been recommended to get the CK 61 capsules for clubs.
The CK 63 capsules for outdoor shows and larger venues.
And the CK 62 Capsules for the studio.
Is this the general concensus?
I have heard these mics are extreemly bright, too bright in fact and lack bottom end.
I know all three capsules have their own charicteristics, however I am not sure if I want to spend the money to buy all three.

The Byerdynamic MC-930’s have also been recommended for an All Pourpose Application.
Thus eliminating the multiple capsules and considerable expense.

I have also heard the new JZ BT-201 mics due out next month, that come with all three capsules is going to be a great way to go.

As for Pre amps this is also quite a delema as well.
Basically here I have two quandrys to contend, before even deciding on a manufacturer or a model.
Do I want to go analog from the pre into the Microtrack II (I already have a Microtrak II) or do I want to go S/PDIF into the MT II?

I know that going  S/PDIF will eliminate the need to set levels on the MT II, thus making it a bit bucket.
I was wondering if going in via the ¼” balanced inputs would give me a warmer sound as well?
Or should I get something like the V# that will give me both options.
I am currently looking at Apogee (who no longer manufactures the models I want, IE.. the ME and the MP)

I am also looking at the Grace Design Lunatec V3 with the 12v option and the Optical output instead of the word clock output. This offers a choice of analog out and digital out as well. However some people think the sound of V3 is a bit harsh as opposed to the Apogee which is a bit warmer sounding.

I have also looked at the Sound Devices MIX PRE which is strictly analog.
I havent seen anyone talk about this device at all. Maybe no one likes this one.

I know all of you have your favorites and I also know that this is also great list of equipment.
If anyone or everyone could give me some guidence here, please feel fee to do so.
Thank You,
Michael Foy

Wow, for a newbi you seem to be a little too much concerned about gear.  There is a lot more to taping than gear.  If you are new to this, don't worry about getting your ultimate rig straight away.  Rather, get something that works, learn how to set up a couple of mics, tape some shows, and listen to the results.  If you don't completely screw up your first few gigs, your doing fine.  It's OK to listen to other's stuff, but you will learn ten times more by taping and listening to a few of your own pulls.  Take notes about your recording setup (or describe the setup at the start of your recording before the band plays) so you can later on figure out what works and what doesn't.

The mic location and the room is much more important than the mic/pre combination, IMHO.  Sometimes you don't have any choice where you can set your mics so you are stuck with a bad location.  Even if you have a choice where to set the mics, you usually can't change them after the concert starts, so if you make a bad choice, you can't move 'em.  A bad PA (or a bad PA EQ) has screwed up more of my recordings than has my mic/pre choice.  Since I tape mostly live classical concerts I can't blame the PA if my recording sucks, but I learn as much or more from a bad recording than I do from a good one.  My point is, it's not so much about the gear.

So anyway, the process is tape, listen, learn, make changes and repeat.  And remember, if it sounds good, it is good, even if you have the "wrong" gear.

[boojum]

If you are recording out of PA's in clubs you are most likely recording the sound of Shure SM58's.  Look at the response curve for the SM58 and think how good a mic you need to record that.

Wait, here is the response curve from Shure:

[cavernut]

[/Wow, for a newbi you seem to be a little too much concerned about gear.  There is a lot more to taping than gear.  If you are new to this, don't worry about getting your ultimate rig straight away.  Rather, get something that works, learn how to set up a couple of mics, tape some shows, and listen to the results.  If you don't completely screw up your first few gigs, your doing fine.  It's OK to listen to other's stuff, but you will learn ten times more by taping and listening to a few of your own pulls.  Take notes about your recording setup (or describe the setup at the start of your recording before the band plays) so you can later on figure out what works and what doesn't.

The mic location and the room is much more important than the mic/pre combination, IMHO.  Sometimes you don't have any choice where you can set your mics so you are stuck with a bad location.  Even if you have a choice where to set the mics, you usually can't change them after the concert starts, so if you make a bad choice, you can't move 'em.  A bad PA (or a bad PA EQ) has screwed up more of my recordings than has my mic/pre choice.  Since I tape mostly live classical concerts I can't blame the PA if my recording sucks, but I learn as much or more from a bad recording than I do from a good one.  My point is, it's not so much about the gear.

So anyway, the process is tape, listen, learn, make changes and repeat.  And remember, if it sounds good, it is good, even if you have the "wrong" gear.
]

Actually as I said in another post I am a newbie to taping concerts from the audience. However since 1981 I have actually worked as a FOH sound engineer, a concert FOH A2, Monitor mix, and a studio A2. As well as having my own small studio. What I really needed to know is what microphones were working well for tapers, also what recording devices and pres were working well for this application as well. I do know how to set levels, make sure the record is happening and timing the change of a CF card if need be.

After a few concerts with my Microtrack II I have decided to upgrade. I am still in the Quandary / Decision mode and I am trying to narrow the field. As far as knowing where to set up, I can usually find the sweet spot in the room (usually not too far from the FOH guy’s ears) the biggest problem there is can you set your gear up in that spot or are you tied to a seat.
 
One thing that almost Engineer I have worked with can’t tell me is, “what is the BEST setup to record live gigs with microphones from the audience with”. Just as all of the people here have their favorite gear, FOH sound guys do too. The problem is, you will find sound guys taping from the soundboard, but pretty much never off of live mics. Also there is always power available and ATA Cases to bring your favorite gear in with you. This is not the case for the tapers. So there is a very big gap in the gear the Tapers choose from what an FOH guy would choose.

My main business for the past several years has Video and Systems Integration. However the people on this board have opened my eyes to a lot of aspects I really haven’t thought of, simply because I had no need to think that way.

The reason I am so into the gear aspect is because I am trying to get a high quality recording. I wasn’t trying to impress anyone with a great looking rig. Although I hope when I do finish my rig does look great, Grunt Grunt Grunt. I also plan to use this gear for studio applications as well, that’s how I am rationalizing the cost of the gear.

One thing I have decided on is not to go the Nagra LB route. In my opinion I think the Sound Devices 702 0r 722 have a lot of advantages over the Nagra. But I am defiantly not saying that NAGRA is anything but incredible gear. It’s just that for my application I believe the Sound Devices gear is the way to go if I decide to go that way. I am also looking at the V3 Pre and using my MTII as a Bit Bucket, as well as an Apogee Pre with my MTII. The big question is which microphones and to that end, my head is spinning.

Thank you very much to everyone on this board who has gone out of their way to help me out.

Michael Foy

[cavernut]

If you are recording out of PA's in clubs you are most likely recording the sound of Shure SM58's.  Look at the response curve for the SM58 and think how good a mic you need to record that.

Wait, here is the response curve from Shure:

Let me ask you this, as i am the proud owner of about a dozen SM58's and half a dozen SM57's, as well as a Microtrack II.

Are these microphones usable for recording sound from the audience? I think I will post this as an additional thread as well. I know these microphones are considered Hyper-Cardioid and they have an SPL rating of about 140db.

If this is the case it would really save a lot of cash and they also wouldn't need phantom power either. The only thing i have ever used these mics for was up close and personal sound from either a vocal, an instrument, or an amp.

[jeromejello]

^^
i am no expert, but i am pretty sure that using those shures for capturing ambiant live sound is going to blow.

[TNJazz]

^^
i am no expert, but i am pretty sure that using those shures for capturing ambiant live sound is going to blow.

Actually it doesn't blow at all, but it's not anywhere near as good as a good condenser.

If you put a good preamp behind them, they can actually do a pretty decent job, believe it or not.